An Article on free will

Still a reference to Christ's choice of his apostles

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) double mindedness is evident in your post above compared to your post below. You accept Christ's choosing you as a friend (post quoted below) but you deny Christ's choosing you as a friend (post quoted above).

Yes happy now

In context it was Christ words to the disciples messengers he had chosen

Nothing there concerning on what basis he chose them

By God's grace and for God's glory, I inquired of you, "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?", and your response, "Yes" is visible, above.

Let's take a look at Lord Jesus Christ's usage of "you" with which the above question and answer pertains:

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16 (you replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))

You express conflicted thoughts about the population of Christ's "you" in the passage. I remind you for this exchange that I consider you to write "apostles" whenever you write "disciples".

Your response of "Yes" shows your personal claim of being part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I have called you friends" (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart's "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart's treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your "Yes" and "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) "Yes No" concept about the audience represented in Christ's "you" recorded in John 15:14-19.

You wrote "Nothing there concerning on what basis he chose them" which conveys your thoughts that, somehow, the Apostles chose Jesus thus your purported choice executed by the Apostle's is your purported "basis" for Jesus choosing the Apostles, yet every Christian's Lord Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so God eliminates any purported free-will choosing by man towards God; therefore, your "basis" conjecture provides only shifting sand diversion away from the Truth (John 14:6) for you.

King Jesus decrees over the Kingdom of God:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will.

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).
 
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) double mindedness is evident in your post above compared to your post below. You accept Christ's choosing you as a friend (post quoted below) but you deny Christ's choosing you as a friend (post quoted above).



By God's grace and for God's glory, I inquired of you, "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?", and your response, "Yes" is visible, above.

Let's take a look at Lord Jesus Christ's usage of "you" with which the above question and answer pertains:
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16 (you replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))​

You express conflicted thoughts about the population of Christ's "you" in the passage. I remind you for this exchange that I consider you to write "apostles" whenever you write "disciples".

Your response of "Yes" shows your personal claim of being part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I have called you friends" (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart's "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the "you" population inside of God's blessing of "I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart's treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your "Yes" and "it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen" expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) "Yes No" concept about the audience represented in Christ's "you" recorded in John 15:14-19.

You wrote "Nothing there concerning on what basis he chose them" which conveys your thoughts that, somehow, the Apostles chose Jesus thus your purported choice executed by the Apostle's is your purported "basis" for Jesus choosing the Apostles, yet every Christian's Lord Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), so God eliminates any purported free-will choosing by man towards God; therefore, your "basis" conjecture provides only shifting sand diversion away from the Truth (John 14:6) for you.

King Jesus decrees over the Kingdom of God:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will.

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).
No will to choose to serve Christ no salvation.

You teach the doctrine of the Pharisees.

Christ did not choose you He chose His disciples while He walked this earth. It doesnt apply to you.

Next fallacy
 
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) double mindedness is evident in your post above compared to your post below. You accept Christ's choosing you as a friend (post quoted below) but you deny Christ's choosing you as a friend (post quoted above).

You completely ignored the scriptural and commentary evidence

Still a reference to Christ's choice of his apostles

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.


Further your objection has nothing at all to do with determining what is being stated in the text

The text itself makes no comment as to whether Christ chose me a friend

and that is not the subject of the text and my comments have nothing at all to the meaning of the text











By God's grace and for God's glory, I inquired of you, "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?", and your response, "Yes" is visible, above.

Let's take a look at Lord Jesus Christ's usage of "you" with which the above question and answer pertains:
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16 (you replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))​

Still has nothing at all to do with the exegesis of the text

If you have a point to make, you need to make it from the text and supporting scripture

You have ignored this
 
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from God, the Creator of heaven and earth.
Absolute TRUTH

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


What i am saying below does NOT pertain to anyone i know or have spoken with on this Forum.

There are people/pastors/religious leaders who actually believe that God needed man's help/assistance.

Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
But Jesus did not commit Himself to them,
because He knew all men,
and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.
John 2:23-25
 
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What comes BEFORE the instruction of John 20:31??? = Answer = Genesis 1:1-3
In the Beginning GOD...... GOD Brings us/mankind, of His WORK, to John 1:1-18 by which HE Leads us to His Finished Work

Key verse/TRUTH = "And of His Fullness we have all received, and Grace for Grace

What does Grace for Grace mean??? = "MY Own Arm brought Salvation to ME"

GENESIS
chickens before eggs
mankind Last
GOD Before ALL things = Salvation BEFORE it was Required
Genesis 1:1-3 does not give instructions on how to be saved

And you have failed to come to grips with

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

which shows the dead man must believe before being made alive
 
BELIEVE the Scripture (post 4,598) which you like to make scrambled eggs with........man's'phillsloppy' can never override His Will
This is not philosophy

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's scripture

Can you deal with it?
 
Nope. Fatalism has no causation. Determinism does. Fatalism is impersonal, determinism is not. Tour ignorant claim makes the cross a matter of fate and Christ's choice a mute point. It was His fate.

You have been corrected again. Try to learn
The result is the same. Which is worse; an impersonal, fluke of chance, or a personal being that deliberately chooses to determine every act, thought, motivation and event, including the death and destruction of most of his creation? In either case human choice and will are irrelevant, or non-existent.



Doug
 
Genesis 1:1-3 does not give instructions on how to be saved
YES it does........but you have to know where to look, for Genesis 1:1-3 does not stand alone.
GENESIS is the FOUNDATION of ALL TRUTH for ALL TRUTH Begins in GOD

Here is just one EXAMPLE: Genesis 15:6
"And he/Abraham believed in the Lord, and He/the Lord accounted it to him for righteousness."

BACK to the FUTURE : Romans 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

BACK to GENESIS 3:21
Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

BACK to the FUTURE : Revelation 13:8
the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's scripture

Will you LIVE in it?
 
Genesis 1:1-3 does not give instructions on how to be saved

And you have failed to come to grips with

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

which shows the dead man must believe before being made alive

FIRST by the LOVE of GOD and then by the Power of His Holy Spirit i REJOICE in John 20:31

Secondly =
"O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

Thirdly: "For it has been given to you, not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer for his sake." (Phil 1:29)
 
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Here it is. Really, here it is! God’s amazing GRACE did it ALL!

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

- Ephesians 2:1-9 (NKJV)


When we understand our Father’s unmerited favor, His great mercy and compassion toward us, His amazing GRACE, our faith comes into being and oh, how it blossoms! I once heard someone say that Faith is to Grace what hearing is to sound.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound …
selah
 
YES it does........but you have to know where to look, for Genesis 1:1-3 does not stand alone.
GENESIS is the FOUNDATION of ALL TRUTH for ALL TRUTH Begins in GOD

Here is just one EXAMPLE: Genesis 15:6
"And he/Abraham believed in the Lord, and He/the Lord accounted it to him for righteousness."

BACK to the FUTURE : Romans 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

BACK to GENESIS 3:21
Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

BACK to the FUTURE : Revelation 13:8
the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's scripture

Will you LIVE in it?
This is Gen 1:1-3

Genesis 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Nothing at all about salvation there
 
No will to choose to serve Christ no salvation.

You teach the doctrine of the Pharisees.

Christ did not choose you He chose His disciples while He walked this earth. It doesnt apply to you.

Next fallacy

According to your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) writings, you are not in Christ because you believe the "you" in Lord Jesus Christ's beautiful words recorded in John chapter 15 do not apply to you, civic, so you exclude yourself from "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6)!

Glorious and Awesome Lord and God Jesus Christ rescued wicked me from the wrath of God, and I did nothing to obtain salvation.

Now, back to how you believe in your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.

2 Cor 4:4, Rev 12:10, Jn 8:44

None of those profound verses change the fact that you believe in CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.

Let's review the verses that you cited:
  • in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
  • Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:10)
  • You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Now, let's look at your heart's thoughts, but more importantly, let's look at the Word of God.

Your spirit must be tested to see if your spirit is self-willed or the image of Christ. The Apostle John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

You and your fatalistic colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to us, and you repeat your false witness against us in your attacks you post that you compose on a daily basis.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism/ determinism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

You accuse me of fabricating false statements against you and your free-willian brothers, but you fail to explain how those statements accurately depicting your beliefs are false.

Revelation 12:10- The Accuser of the brethren has spoken once again speaking falsehoods. cf John 8:44

for out of the heart he speaketh all kinds of evil.

You accuse the Holy Spirit of God who causes me to show your adulterations to Holy Scripture - just read the following.

Spot on brother

@TibiasDad is spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, and you are spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, also, just as illumined in the following.

are you male or female ?

I'm sticking with where we last left off, civic. Oh, your question was addressed below, before you asked.

The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)

You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

still projecting. you need to remove the log before looking at my splinter.

CHRIST' FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.

The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".

I reject your commands based on your teaching being false.

Yes it’s all Greek to him 😂 his Greek is the equivalent of my Aramaic- non existent

Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.

CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.

In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).

Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).

Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.

Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.

John 8:39-45

That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"
(John 8:39-45)

When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.

See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.

Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.

Now, back to where you and I left off recently.

projecting again, more gobblygook

You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!

You are embarrassing yourself.

You twist my words just like you twist scripture. For the readers here is the meaning of gobblygook- longwinded, unintelligible, gibberish, nonsense etc....

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more


noun
1944–
Language or jargon, esp. in bureaucratic or official contexts, which is pretentious, long-winded, or specialized to the point of being unintelligible to the general public; nonsense, gibberish.

You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!

Now, back to where we left off.

more gobblygook.

Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".

You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".

Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.

Flip Wilson theology - the devil made me do it ( sin )
You reversed it god made me do it ( sin )

Both are wrong and unbiblical. As the Bible says out of the heart comes all kinds of evil and when one is tempted to sin no one can say God tempted me but you are carried away by your own lusts. The above two Bible passages are Paraphrased for simple understanding.

hope this helps !!!

You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.

As I explained to you, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses to discuss are shown below.

The Atonement has no limits, you have a false gospel and make Jesus and the Apostles liars.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Loraine Boettner the world renown Calvinist theologian has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1
)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosoever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

Conclusion : tulip is a false gospel

hope this helps !!!

God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.

As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
  • if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
  • if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
  • The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-willians The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world!
(civic 1:29)
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(John 1:29)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-willians The Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God.
(civic 2:9)
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-willians The Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment
(civic 2:11)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(Titus 2:11)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-willians The Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared
(civic 3:4)
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
(Titus 3:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of civic The Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(civic 3:16)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)
And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-willians The First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 civic 2:4)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-willians The Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance.
(2 civic 3:9)
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-willians The First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy.
(1 civic 2:2)
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2)
So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-willians The Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
(2 civic 5:14)
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
And you quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.

Your spirit makes false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
 
According to your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) writings, you are not in Christ because you believe the "you" in Lord Jesus Christ's beautiful words recorded in John chapter 15 do not apply to you, civic, so you exclude yourself from "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6)!

Glorious and Awesome Lord and God Jesus Christ rescued wicked me from the wrath of God, and I did nothing to obtain salvation.

Now, back to how you believe in your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.



None of those profound verses change the fact that you believe in CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.

Let's review the verses that you cited:
  • in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
  • Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:10)
  • You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Now, let's look at your heart's thoughts, but more importantly, let's look at the Word of God.

Your spirit must be tested to see if your spirit is self-willed or the image of Christ. The Apostle John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).



You accuse me of fabricating false statements against you and your free-willian brothers, but you fail to explain how those statements accurately depicting your beliefs are false.



You accuse the Holy Spirit of God who causes me to show your adulterations to Holy Scripture - just read the following.



@TibiasDad is spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, and you are spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, also, just as illumined in the following.



I'm sticking with where we last left off, civic. Oh, your question was addressed below, before you asked.

The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)

You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).



CHRIST' FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.

The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".

I reject your commands based on your teaching being false.



Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.

CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.

In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).

Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).

Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.

Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.



That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"​
(John 8:39-45)​

When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.

See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.

Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.

Now, back to where you and I left off recently.



You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!



You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!

Now, back to where we left off.



Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".

You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".

Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.



You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.

As I explained to you, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses to discuss are shown below.



God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.

As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
  • if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
  • if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
  • The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world!
(civic 1:29)
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(John 1:29)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God.
(civic 2:9)
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment
(civic 2:11)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(Titus 2:11)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared
(civic 3:4)
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
(Titus 3:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of civicThe Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(civic 3:16)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)
And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-williansThe First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 civic 2:4)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-williansThe Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance.
(2 civic 3:9)
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-williansThe First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy.
(1 civic 2:2)
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2)
So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-williansThe Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
(2 civic 5:14)
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
And you quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.

Your spirit makes false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
You trust scripture like the cults to your own destruction as a fatalist.
 
This is Gen 1:1-3

Genesis 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Nothing at all about salvation there
oh IT IS THERE = RIGHT in FRONT of YOU = In the Beginning was the Word...........and the Word was God
 
According to your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) writings, you are not in Christ because you believe the "you" in Lord Jesus Christ's beautiful words recorded in John chapter 15 do not apply to you, civic, so you exclude yourself from "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6)!

Glorious and Awesome Lord and God Jesus Christ rescued wicked me from the wrath of God, and I did nothing to obtain salvation.

Now, back to how you believe in your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.



None of those profound verses change the fact that you believe in CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.

Let's review the verses that you cited:
  • in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
  • Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:10)
  • You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Now, let's look at your heart's thoughts, but more importantly, let's look at the Word of God.

Your spirit must be tested to see if your spirit is self-willed or the image of Christ. The Apostle John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).



You accuse me of fabricating false statements against you and your free-willian brothers, but you fail to explain how those statements accurately depicting your beliefs are false.



You accuse the Holy Spirit of God who causes me to show your adulterations to Holy Scripture - just read the following.



@TibiasDad is spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, and you are spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, also, just as illumined in the following.



I'm sticking with where we last left off, civic. Oh, your question was addressed below, before you asked.

The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)

You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).



CHRIST' FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.

The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".

I reject your commands based on your teaching being false.



Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.

CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.

In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).

Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).

Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.

Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.



That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"​
(John 8:39-45)​

When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.

See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.

Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.

Now, back to where you and I left off recently.



You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!



You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!

Now, back to where we left off.



Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".

You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".

Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.



You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.

As I explained to you, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses to discuss are shown below.



God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.

As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
  • if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
  • if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
  • The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world!
(civic 1:29)
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(John 1:29)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God.
(civic 2:9)
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment
(civic 2:11)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(Titus 2:11)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared
(civic 3:4)
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
(Titus 3:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of civicThe Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(civic 3:16)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)
And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-williansThe First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 civic 2:4)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-williansThe Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance.
(2 civic 3:9)
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-williansThe First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy.
(1 civic 2:2)
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2)
So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-williansThe Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
(2 civic 5:14)
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
And you quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.

Your spirit makes false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
Same repetition which never addresses rebuttal

John 15:16

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.
Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe

John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it

see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3. θάνατον see death=die Lk 2:26; Hb 11:5 (cf. Ps 88:49; Anth. Pal. 6, 230 ἰδεῖν Ἀίδην); grief Rv 18:7 (cf. 1 Macc 13:3 τὰς στενοχωρίας; Eccl 6:6 ἀγαθωσύνην). τὴν διαφθοράν experience decay=decay Ac 2:27, 31; 13:35-7 (all Ps 15:10); τ. ἡμέραν (Soph., Oed. R. 831; Aristoph., Pax 345; Polyb. 10, 4, 7; 32, 10, 9; Ael. Aristid. 32 p. 601 D.; Lam 2:16; Jos., Ant. 6, 305): τὴν ἡμέραν τ. ἐμήν J 8:56; μίαν τῶν ἡμερῶν Lk 17:22



William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 221.







4. to experience ⇔ see — to experience something, conceived of as being present during the experience so as to view it



Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed



Observed this well known Calvinist commentary



cannot see—can have no part in (just as one is said to “see life,” “see death,” &c.).



Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 131.



And this Calvinist Greek Scholar



He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.



A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.



And Calvin himself



To SEE the kingdom of God is of the same meaning as to ENTER INTO the kingdom of God, as we shall immediately perceive from the context



John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 108.



Also other verses using the word see



Luke 2:26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Heb 11:5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience, to enter, to obtain

and this is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

So the whole world does not indicate the whole world

Show the whole world means believers only

1 John 2:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You theology requirtes this be true only of believers

What evidence can you produce other than the needs of your theology

John tells us who he is writing to. In 1 John 5:13 he says, "These things have I written UNTO YOU THAT BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD". He wrote this letter to BELIEVERS. Thus, in 1 John 2:2 Christ is the propitiation for our sins (that is, believers), and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (that is, unbelievers).

If there is any question about this, let the Bible define its own terms. One should consider the usage of the term "world" in the book of 1 John (see 1 John 3:1; 3:13; 4:5; 4:9; 4:14; and especially 5:19). This word is certainly not used when referring to elect Gentiles. Especially significant is the usage of this term in 1 John 5:19. John used the expression "the whole world" in only two places: in 1 John 2:2 and 5:19. In 1 John 5:19 we read this: "And we [Christians] know that we [Christians] are of God, and THE WHOLE WORLD [non-Christians] lieth in wickedness [in the wicked one]".

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17b; 17:6.—κρίνειν τὸν κ. (Sib. Or. 4, 184) Ro 3:6; B 4:12; cf. Ro 3:19. ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κ. εἰσῆλθεν 5:12; likew. θάνατος εἰσῆλθεν εἰς τὸν κ. 1 Cl 3:4 (Wsd 2:24; 14:14). Cf. Ro 5:13; 1 Cor 1:27f. περικαθάρματα τοῦ κ. the refuse of mankind 4:13.—6:2a, b (Sallust. 21 p. 36, 13 the souls of the virtuous, together w. the gods, will rule the whole κόσμος); 2 Cor 1:12; 5:19; Js 2:5; 1J 2:2; 4:1, 3. ἀρχαῖος κόσμος the men of the ancient world 2 Pt 2:5a; cf. b; 3:6.—ὅλος ὁ κ. all the world, everybody Ac 2:47 D. Likew. ὁ κόσμος (cf. Philo, De Prov. in Euseb., Pr. Ev. 8, 14, 58) ὁ κ. ὀπίσω αὐτοῦ ἀπῆλθεν J 12:19. ἐγὼ παρρησίᾳ λελάληκα τῷ κ. 18:20; cf. 7:4; 14:22.
 
The result is the same. Which is worse; an impersonal, fluke of chance, or a personal being that deliberately chooses to determine every act, thought, motivation and event, including the death and destruction of most of his creation? In either case human choice and will are irrelevant, or non-existent.



Doug

You have been truthfully proven wrong before, but you try to skate on by without acknowledging your deception of specifically neglecting the state of conversion as shown below.

If you were writing the above to be published, you would be laughed out of the room. No editor would allow his name to be associated such a statement!

God is my editor, even more than my editor!

I have never said “potentially” in the context of Phil 2:13; and that is why it is a strawman argument!

You interjected yourself into the conversation about Philippians 2:13 from two angles
  • God caused me to quote Philippians 2:13 by reference in post #4,015 to @Kampioen where Kampioen championed the idea that God is less than Almighty.
  • the chain of this very exchange between you and I goes back to post #3,648 specifically quoting Philippians 2:13.

My original comment is about a pre-conversion context, not a post-conversion context.

You mentioned pre-conversion and post-conversion, but you neglected to mention conversion, itself. Lord Jesus mentions conversion specifically in "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3).

For pre-conversion, the Apostle Paul explains that the Word of God is foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

For conversion and post- conversion, the Apostle Paul explains "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

"Yahweh kills and makes alive" (1 Samuel 2:6), so God kills the old natural man with man's inability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God; moreover, God births the new Spiritual man with man's newly imparted ability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.

You cannot righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God unless you are first born of the Holy Spirit of God because the Word of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Now, the time has come to look at these three states of being:
pre-conversion=Exclusively in his flesh, man wrongly perceives and misunderstands God. See 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John 3:3 and "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
conversion=The Holy Spirit works inside of man that man righteously perceives and understands and fears God. See Philippians 2:13 and John 3:3 and “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
post-conversion=The Holy Spirit keeps working in man to righteously perceive and understand and worship and please God. See Philippians 2:13 and "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth" (John 4:24).

Your exculpatory context restriction between only pre-conversion and post-conversion while eliminating conversion exhibits your wrong perception and misunderstanding of God. Your "strawman argument" is false witness.

The gospel being presented to a group of unbelievers is always a potential circumstance. Some may repent (change their mind) after hearing the gospel, and others may not! Through the revelation of the gospel, God’s word potentially could change the minds of any one of the hearers.

Unless you can quote me directly saying what you surmise me to assert, you are making false claims about me and are exposing the weakness of your own abilities to argue against my opposing beliefs.

Doug

Right here, you convey that you are outside of Christ at the same time Christ is outside of you at the same time you cause yourself to change of your mind to turn toward Christ unto salvation, so, by definition, self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10) believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ, so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) as well as "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) as well as “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) as well as “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63) as well as "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

TibiasDad, nothing you wrote changes your "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed in post #4,015.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIGHT, JESUS CHRIST!!!
 
The result is the same. Which is worse; an impersonal, fluke of chance, or a personal being that deliberately chooses to determine every act, thought, motivation and event, including the death and destruction of most of his creation? In either case human choice and will are irrelevant, or non-existent.



Doug
Indeed it’s 100 times worse
 
You completely ignored the scriptural and commentary evidence

Still a reference to Christ's choice of his apostles

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.


Further your objection has nothing at all to do with determining what is being stated in the text

The text itself makes no comment as to whether Christ chose me a friend

and that is not the subject of the text and my comments have nothing at all to the meaning of the text













Still has nothing at all to do with the exegesis of the text

If you have a point to make, you need to make it from the text and supporting scripture

You have ignored this

You deny the Apostle Peter's testimony by your way of exalting your non-Apostolic Free-willian Smelley's interpretation above Apostolic testimony as shown below.

A crucial point is that not a single Biblical citation in you post states that Christ exclusively referred to the Apostles the Christ's usage of “you” as recorded in John chapter 15!

You propounded "Still a reference to Christ's [exclusive] choice of his apostles" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were a part of the audience in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter testified the Apostolic Right:
TomL Wrong Apostolic Right
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have not accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 do not concern yourselves whether from the beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(TomL 1:21-23)
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

You responded “Yes” to the question “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?” (proof post #576) when John 15:14-19 was quoted in full at the time.

Let’s take a look at Lord Jesus Christ’s usage of “you” with which the above question and answer pertains:

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))

You express confused thoughts about the population of Christ’s “you” in the passage.

Your response of “Yes” establishes your personal claim of being part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I have called you friends” (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart’s “It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles” eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I chose you” (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart’s treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your “Yes” and “It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles” expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) “Yes No” concept about the audience represented in Christ’s “you” recorded in John 15:14-19.

Your adulteration of Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of TomL The Word of God
you apostles exclusively did not choose Me to be apostles, but I exclusively chose you to be apostles
(TomL 15:16)
you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)
I chose not you out of the world
(TomL 15:19, excludes salvation)
I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes salvation)
And so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again and again and again.

Nothing, absolutely nothing you wrote eliminates the Truth (John 14:6) that Lord Jesus Christ includes every disciple in all time with His blessed sayings “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (the Word of God, John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (the Word of God, John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your heart's exclusion of all Christians in all time from Lord Jesus Christ's blessed sayings is your false free-willian philosophy that leads to you excluding yourself from the Kingdom of God.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-willian Philosophy is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE TRUE FAITH!!!
 
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