civic
Well-known member
Truth extraordinaire
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Indeed
You are baring false witness again.
I gave a book definition so you could not deny it but true to form you divert
DavidTree
Well-known member
AGREE
But is it though???
me thinks it is, But is it really???
me knows HIM who knows that the responsibility of man is to "fear God and keep the Commandments" = this I KNOW
so what is the CAUSATION
of the PLAN of SALVATION
that dead men walking
Begin to start talking
of the LOVE of God???
Could it be the DOVE
that Hovers over the Waters
where the Wind blows
as HE Wishes
to Clean UP all the dirty Dishes???
this MUCH i KNOW
that before i became a son of God
there was much sin in this land of 'Nod'
'Nod' me thinking
was the reason for HIS descending
down to ground zero
where dead men heard His Voice
YEAH = it caused dead men RISING
from the graves of despair
held by chains in satan's lair
you could pull out all your hair
and still never get out of of there
so now @civic you really have me thinking
that it is His Peace that gives REST
only for those whom the FATHER
Placed in His Breast
I also gave the dictionaries definition which you ignored and tried to save face. Faith being a instrumental cause helps my case, not yours. LOL
You cast evil aspersions against King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God by your labeling Christ as "FATAL" instead of the source of Life (John 14:6)!
In rejection of the Word of God, you fail to address the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) of John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 that you originally presented as proof for human free-will but truly show your deception as illumined below!
You wickedly call Lord Jesus Christ "fatal"! No Christian applies the label "fatal" to our Christian source of Life (John 14:6), the Living God Jesus Christ!
But you don't stop there! You say the Christ of us Christians is the devil with your "like your father you twist the scripture" as you previously referenced John 8:44 - just see your first
You prove the Apostle Paul correct, "evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13) - just look at the following which you fail to address about John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14!
None of those profound verses change the fact that you believe in CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.
Let's review the verses that you cited:
- in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
- Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:10)
- You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)
Now, let's look at your heart's thoughts, but more importantly, let's look at the Word of God.
Your spirit must be tested to see if your spirit is self-willed or the image of Christ. The Apostle John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).
You accuse me of fabricating false statements against you and your free-willian brothers, but you fail to explain how those statements accurately depicting your beliefs are false.
You accuse the Holy Spirit of God who causes me to show your adulterations to Holy Scripture - just read the following.
@TibiasDad is spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, and you are spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, also, just as illumined in the following.
I'm sticking with where we last left off, civic. Oh, your question was addressed below, before you asked.
“The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
CHRIST' FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.
The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".
I reject your commands based on your teaching being false.
Yes it’s all Greek to himhis Greek is the equivalent of my Aramaic- non existent
Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.
CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.
In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).
Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).
Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.
Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.
That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"
(John 8:39-45)
When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.
See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.
Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.
Now, back to where you and I left off recently.
You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!
You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!
Now, back to where we left off.
Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".
You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".
Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.
You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.
As I explained to you, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses to discuss are shown below.
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your spirit makes false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
Selah
Active member
Seems to me that faith in God’s all-sufficient grace certainly IS man’s responsibility. We can either accept His gift of Jesus or reject it. Thoughts? :]
s.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Still a reference to Christ's choice of his apostles
| Again Christs choice of his apostles His disciples were given to him by the Father. John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word. From them he chose 12 to be apostles Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor. John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’ clearly Christ chose his apostles Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341. consider the various choices here Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3. Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation. Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others. Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast. In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341. But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16. 12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16. True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119. 16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286. In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation. Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition. |
Where?
Point it out
Sorry faith being an instrumental cause does not help your position for you denied God saves because of faith.
The dead man must believe to be made alive
John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
DavidTree
Well-known member
How can a dead man hear and believe???
Scripture was "WRITTEN" from WHERE did this COME From - man or God???
Because this death is not physical death
and scripture shows it to be so
John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
What must man do before he has life in Christ's name?
What do you call one without life?
DavidTree
Well-known member
BINGO
How can men who are spiritually DEAD in tresspasses and sin hear God???
Oh yeah, i am SHOUTING - get it? = impossible to SAVE anyone this way
Who then can be saved? = With man this is IMPOSSIBLE
If you get it = you will let it = because Someone already Blessed it.........
Because the bible says they must do it
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Are you going to judge by your philosphy or scripture
DavidTree
Well-known member
What comes BEFORE the instruction of John 20:31??? = Answer = Genesis 1:1-3
In the Beginning GOD...... GOD Brings us/mankind, of His WORK, to John 1:1-18 by which HE Leads us to His Finished Work
Key verse/TRUTH = "And of His Fullness we have all received, and Grace for Grace
What does Grace for Grace mean??? = "MY Own Arm brought Salvation to ME"
GENESIS
chickens before eggs
mankind Last
GOD Before ALL things = Salvation BEFORE it was Required
DavidTree
Well-known member
BELIEVE the Scripture (post 4,598) which you like to make scrambled eggs with........man's'phillsloppy' can never override His Will
Selah
Active member
from God, the Creator of heaven and earth.
