An Article on free will

DavidTree said:
OK, then!
i was waiting for you to ask!

John 6:44
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Click to expand...
Nothing about election there

It is an unfruitful wait

And all who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Revelation is needed

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
TomL said:
Nothing about election there

It is an unfruitful wait

And all who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Revelation is needed

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Click to expand...
So you are calling JESUS words as 'not true ' = "an unfruitful wait"

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:45 - Undermines your position and VALIDATES that only by Election can someone be SAVED.

FYI = verse 44 comes BEFORE verse 45

John 6:44-45
44 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Election is verse 44
Hearing in verse 45

Thank You for your support in the TRUTH
 
DavidTree said:
So you are calling JESUS words as 'not true ' = "an unfruitful wait"
Click to expand...


No I was speaking of your wait. Basic reading comprehension


DavidTree said:
John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:45 - Undermines your position and VALIDATES that only by Election can someone be SAVED.

FYI = verse 44 comes BEFORE verse 45

John 6:44-45
44 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Election is verse 44
Hearing in verse 45

Thank You for your support in the TRUTH
Click to expand...
Sorry election is not mentioned in verse 44

you are reading it into the verse, assuming your view and begging the question

One must hear and then one must learn

Learning is the obligation of the one who hears

There is no argument here for unconditional election to salvation - none
 
DavidTree said:
So you are calling JESUS words as 'not true ' = "an unfruitful wait"

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:45 - Undermines your position and VALIDATES that only by Election can someone be SAVED.

FYI = verse 44 comes BEFORE verse 45

John 6:44-45
44 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Election is verse 44
Hearing in verse 45

Thank You for your support in the TRUTH
Click to expand...
TomL said:
No it is not what Doug believes

He holds to prevenient grace, which is only available because of Christ
Click to expand...

So prevenient grace places you in Christ? Or are you still apart from Christ?
 
civic said:
the scriptures are great your understanding is secular, carnal, fleshly, void of the Spirit of God. Hence its gobblygook.
Click to expand...

Look at your first 3 paragraphs in response to Godly exegesis of 2 Corinthians 5:14 to which you had responded in your below quote, civic. Your understanding of Holy Scripture is revealed therein. You adulterated "all died" into "All die", so you fail to understand Holy Scripture.

civic said:
nothing but eisegesis in your post running to and fro- piece meal theology.

The fact is all is the same in both instances and included everyone in the verse.

All die
He died for all
Click to expand...

I understand that you reject being under the loving control of Christ as per 2 Corinthians 5:14.

These crucial points about 2nd Corinthians 5:14 are the Truth (John 14:6):
  1. "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died" (2 Corinthians 5:14) contains two instances of the word "all", so the concept of "all" in 2 Corinthians 5:14 includes not everyone everywhere in all time - see "all died" which is exclusively every Christian who first died to sin and was born clean by God because of the love of Christ controlling us Christians - One died for all Christians.
  2. The word controls in 2 Corinthians 5:14 requires the Christ be the one who exclusively chooses to control every person in the all. We Christians know this for the Good Shepherd comforts us with “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).
  3. Only the born of God are the audience for the Second Letter to the Corinthians because the letter is "To the assembly of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia" (2 Corinthians 1:1), so the two instances of "all" in 2 Corinthians 5:14 is constrained to the understanding of God's born again persons controlled by the love of Christ but not worldly persons.
  4. According to your Free-willian Philosophy, Christ died for every person everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
    • if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
    • if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
    • The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
    So, you free-willians believe in your Christ's failure atonement.
  5. You Free-Willian Philosophers adulterate Holy Scripture as evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
    The Second Book of Free-willians The Second Book to the Corinthians
    For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
    (2 civic 5:14)    		For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
    (2 Corinthians 5:14)
  6. You free-willians fail to have Godly understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:14 continuing into "and He died for all, so that the living would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) since this "all" is exactly the same group as "the living" thus your heart destroys context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
  7. Christ's doctrine is that no person can righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless the person is first born by the Holy Spirit of God with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3), so you exclude yourself from the audience for the Second Letter to the Corinthians because of the constraint in 2 Corinthians 1:1.
  8. Crucially, the Apostle Paul declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ because you believe your free-will is uncontrolled by Christ. In fact, you believe you control Christ with your fleshly concept of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ, so Christ must profit me with salvation".

We Christians know we are entirely dependent upon our Lord Jesus Christ's loving control for salvation.

You free-willians believe you are entirely dependent upon your non-born by God, self-willed flesh (2 Peter 2:9-10) to control Christ forcing Christ to profit you with salvation, and you believe it despite the Word of God declaring "it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).

Your belief is in a state of confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THANK YOU LORD JESUS FOR YOUR LOVING CONTROL!!!
 
Presby02 said:
So prevenient grace places you in Christ? Or are you still apart from Christ?
Click to expand...
PY is the Holy Spirit doing what Jesus said He would do- convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. Then it's up to man to accept or reject the gospel message. Even provisinists believe God makes the first move towards man. :)
 
civic said:
PY is the Holy Spirit doing what Jesus said He would do- convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. Then it's up to man to accept or reject the gospel message. Even provisinists believe God makes the first move towards man. :)
Click to expand...


Great. Totally irrelevant to Tom's assertion.
 
TomL said:
No I was speaking of your wait. Basic reading comprehension



Sorry election is not mentioned in verse 44

you are reading it into the verse, assuming your view and begging the question

One must hear and then one must learn

Learning is the obligation of the one who hears

There is no argument here for unconditional election to salvation - none
Click to expand...
Denying the Truth is the work of satan - do not go down that road

#1 TRUTH of the Bible beginning in Genesis = God elects, no one comes to SALVATION unless the FATHER draws/calls/elects them

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, -

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. - Isaiah 45


JESUS says: I am not speaking about all of you; I know whom I have chosen. - John 13:8
JESUS says: You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit,
JESUS says: shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,

WHY does God elect??? - "for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"
Kermos said:
An unkind gesture is your first post to me, here, DavidTree.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE WORKS OF GOD’S HAND!!!
Click to expand...
Kermos,
Actually it was kind in it's own way.
Having humor is a sign of friendship where i grew up. Take things lightly

i have to deal with slanderers, backbiters and those who oppose the Holy Scriptures almost daily on these forums.
 
DavidTree said:
Denying the Truth is the work of satan - do not go down that road

#1 TRUTH of the Bible beginning in Genesis = God elects, no one comes to SALVATION unless the FATHER draws/calls/elects them

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, -

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. - Isaiah 45


JESUS says: I am not speaking about all of you; I know whom I have chosen. - John 13:8
JESUS says: You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit,
JESUS says: shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,

WHY does God elect??? - "for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"

Kermos,
Actually it was kind in it's own way.
Having humor is a sign of friendship where i grew up. Take things lightly

i have to deal with slanderers, backbiters and those who oppose the Holy Scriptures almost daily on these forums.
Click to expand...
Where does unconditional election or elect appear in John 6:44 - It doesn't

Was Israel unconditionally elected to salvation - We know they were not

Christ chose his apostles that says nothing at all about unconditional election to salvation

You have not shown a single verse which speaks of unconditional elections

The mere mention of the word elect does not serve to show election to salvation is unconditional

Provide a verse which actually states what you believe

You have not done so so far
 
TomL said:
Nothing about election there

It is an unfruitful wait

And all who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Revelation is needed

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Click to expand...
Unbelief is sin = "whatever is not of faith is sin" = Romans 14:23

Eternal LIFE is "KNOWING" the only True God and Jesus Christ whom HE has sent = Gospel
We only KNOW God if HE Elects us, as it is written, "you have not known ME, but I have chosen/elected you" - Gospel
We are sanctified in the Truth = God's words are TRUTH - Gospel
We live by His words which are LIFE = "these words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life" - Gospel

Denying the words of Christ is apostacy = falling away from faith in God's words - Gospel


JESUS says: I am not speaking about all of you; I know whom I have chosen. - John 13:8 - Gospel
JESUS says: You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit,
JESUS says: shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, - Gospel
 
TomL said:
Where does unconditional election or elect appear in John 6:44 - It doesn't

Was Israel unconditionally elected to salvation - We know they were not

Christ chose his apostles that says nothing at all about unconditional election to salvation

You have not shown a single verse which speaks of unconditional elections

The mere mention of the word elect does not serve to show election to salvation is unconditional

Provide a verse which actually states what you believe

You have not done so so far
Click to expand...
yes they add it to the text.
 
civic said:
yes they add it to the text.
Click to expand...
"Unconditional" is a word not in John 6:44 BUT "no one" is.
'no one' can come to Me unless.............
Unless WHAT??? = what did JESUS say MUST occur BEFORE someone is drawn to Him = in John 6:44

FYI = God uses more then one word for "elect" as well as phrases such as: "I have called you...I have chosen you "

What are the "conditions" by which God "elects" BEFORE that person is brought to CHRIST
 
DavidTree said:
"Unconditional" is a word not in John 6:44 BUT "no one" is.
'no one' can come to Me unless.............
Unless WHAT??? = what did JESUS say MUST occur BEFORE someone is drawn to Him = in John 6:44

FYI = God uses more then one word for "elect" as well as phrases such as: "I have called you...I have chosen you "

What are the "conditions" by which God "elects" BEFORE that person is brought to CHRIST
Click to expand...
He only draws those who listen and learn from the Father in that narrative.
 
civic said:
He only draws those who listen and learn from the Father in that narrative.
Click to expand...
#1 - We belong to CHRIST = with a 'dash' of hockey while we wait for His Coming

#2 - Please post where it SPECIFICALLY says: He only draws those who listen and learn from the Father, BEFORE, the FATHER calls/draws them

#3 - John 6:44 is BEFORE John 6:45

FYI = Genesis = Chicken BEFORE eggs
 

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