You actually reworded my post. Is that how you want to play?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Do you lack understanding? I was correcting not quoting you.
Who told you to correct my post making it look like that's what I wrote? Should I do that to you?
Let me quote Presby02 in response to you.
You write about secondary causes - a phrase absent from Holy Scripture.
I merely stated that Presby02 answered your questions twice.
God causes me to answer you in Truth (John 14:6). Why don't you respond about the following?
Kampioen, ignoring Holy Scripture does not get you into heaven.
Fundamentally, you are asking, is God Almighty? Or, asked another way, does God reign in the affairs of man? We must turn to Holy Scripture for the Truth (John 14:6)!
God declares to man his thoughts:
behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!
(Amos 4:13)
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
And the Apostle Peter declares the Power of God:
"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way, and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
(Philippians 2:13).
Hear Apostolic testimony about God's Hand intimately controlling people's lives, even Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel:
"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."
(Acts 4:24-30, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)
The Apostle Paul wrote of people who exalt the creature above the Grand Creator:
"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11).
“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (The Word of God, John 6:29).
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!
civic
Well-known member
you ask the wrong question with faulty presuppositions - the question is not does God hide or blind some to the truth?
the real question is why does God blind some and not others ?
you do not know the answer or will deny the answer to that ?
None of those profound verses change the fact that you believe in CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT.
Let's review the verses that you cited:
- in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
- Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:10)
- You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)
Now, let's look at your heart's thoughts, but more importantly, let's look at the Word of God.
Your spirit must be tested to see if your spirit is self-willed or the image of Christ. The Apostle John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).
You accuse me of fabricating false statements against you and your free-willian brothers, but you fail to explain how those statements accurately depicting your beliefs are false.
You accuse the Holy Spirit of God who causes me to show your adulterations to Holy Scripture - just read the following.
@TibiasDad is spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, and you are spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, also, just as illumined in the following.
I'm sticking with where we last left off, civic. Oh, your question was addressed below, before you asked.
“The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
CHRIST' FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.
The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".
I reject your commands based on your teaching being false.
Yes it’s all Greek to himhis Greek is the equivalent of my Aramaic- non existent
Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.
CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.
In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).
Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).
Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.
Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.
That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"
(John 8:39-45)
When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.
See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.
Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.
Now, back to where you and I left off recently.
You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!
You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!
Now, back to where we left off.
Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".
You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".
Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.
You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.
As I explained to you, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses to discuss are shown below.
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your spirit makes false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
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civic
Well-known member
so your god causes/makes you bear false witness against believers. That's good to know.
You continue ignoring rebuttal and context
John 15:5 concerns believers and the believers walk not believing the gospel
John 15:1–8 (KJV 1900) — 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 3:3 refers to entering into - experiencing the kingdom of God as shown by verse 5
John 3:5 (UASV) — 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born from water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3. θάνατον see death=die Lk 2:26; Hb 11:5 (cf. Ps 88:49; Anth. Pal. 6, 230 ἰδεῖν Ἀίδην); grief Rv 18:7 (cf. 1 Macc 13:3 τὰς στενοχωρίας; Eccl 6:6 ἀγαθωσύνην). τὴν διαφθοράν experience decay=decay Ac 2:27, 31; 13:35-7 (all Ps 15:10); τ. ἡμέραν (Soph., Oed. R. 831; Aristoph., Pax 345; Polyb. 10, 4, 7; 32, 10, 9; Ael. Aristid. 32 p. 601 D.; Lam 2:16; Jos., Ant. 6, 305): τὴν ἡμέραν τ. ἐμήν J 8:56; μίαν τῶν ἡμερῶν Lk 17:22
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 221.
4. to experience ⇔ see — to experience something, conceived of as being present during the experience so as to view it
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).
As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed
Observed this well known Calvinist commentary
cannot see—can have no part in (just as one is said to “see life,” “see death,” &c.).
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 131.
And this Calvinist Greek Scholar
He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.
And Calvin himself
To SEE the kingdom of God is of the same meaning as to ENTER INTO the kingdom of God, as we shall immediately perceive from the context
John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 108.
Also other verses using the word see
Luke 2:26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Heb 11:5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience, to enter, to obtain
Visual sight is not in views as The kingdom does not come with observation
Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
John 15:16 as enumerated a multiplicity of times refers to Christs choice of his apostle
His disciples were given to him by the Father.
John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.
From them he chose 12 to be apostles
Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’
clearly Christ chose his apostles
Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.
consider the various choices here
Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.
Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.
Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.
Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.
In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles
Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.
But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.
True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.
16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.
In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.
Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
You believe not the Word of God!
Hear the Word of the Lord:
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
(Job 38:4)
I'm ready for a response to this question, civic.
Answer, you free-willian.
A dead in sin person cannot righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless that dead in sin born anew by God because thus says King Jesus "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3)
"The dead do not praise the LORD" (Psalm 115:17).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
did the 12 understand Jesus teaching on the gospel/ resurrection and were they born again while with Jesus ? yes or no
Civic stated
civic said:
the real question is why does God blind some and not others ?
you do not know the answer or will deny the answer to that ?
You failed to answer his question and dodged
Same repeat error which ignores context, lexicon and commentary
John 3:3 refers to entering into - experiencing the kingdom of God as shown by verse 5
John 3:5 (UASV) — 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born from water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3. θάνατον see death=die Lk 2:26; Hb 11:5 (cf. Ps 88:49; Anth. Pal. 6, 230 ἰδεῖν Ἀίδην); grief Rv 18:7 (cf. 1 Macc 13:3 τὰς στενοχωρίας; Eccl 6:6 ἀγαθωσύνην). τὴν διαφθοράν experience decay=decay Ac 2:27, 31; 13:35-7 (all Ps 15:10); τ. ἡμέραν (Soph., Oed. R. 831; Aristoph., Pax 345; Polyb. 10, 4, 7; 32, 10, 9; Ael. Aristid. 32 p. 601 D.; Lam 2:16; Jos., Ant. 6, 305): τὴν ἡμέραν τ. ἐμήν J 8:56; μίαν τῶν ἡμερῶν Lk 17:22
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 221.
4. to experience ⇔ see — to experience something, conceived of as being present during the experience so as to view it
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).
As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed
Observed this well known Calvinist commentary
cannot see—can have no part in (just as one is said to “see life,” “see death,” &c.).
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 131.
And this Calvinist Greek Scholar
He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.
And Calvin himself
To SEE the kingdom of God is of the same meaning as to ENTER INTO the kingdom of God, as we shall immediately perceive from the context
John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 108.
Also other verses using the word see
Luke 2:26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Heb 11:5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience, to enter, to obtain
Visual sight is not in views as The kingdom does not come with observation
Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
The problem is you don't answer yes or no. But I am assuming you don't believe in secondary causes.
But if this is so, then everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God, including thoughts and actions.
Then we are really not communicating with each other but actuated by God. Like string puppets that are not really communication with each other or scriptures, including you.
Declare doesn't necessarily mean unilaterally predetermine. It could mean He just recited what He foreknew. So you haven’t proven unilateral predetermination.
This doesn't prove unilateral predetermination. God just hides some things from some.
That is effectual grace. But that doesn't disprove prevenient grace before salvation.
This doesn't prove unilateral predetermination for people to be good or evil. It just states what God does to good or evil people.
Philippians 2:12 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
This doesn't prove unilateral predetermination. The new birth just determines the doing of it. But the extent of it libertarianly depends on us. That is the way it is worded.
This does not prove unilateral predetermination. God could just as well be gathering already evil people together to get the job of crucifixion done ie non-meticulous providence. It doesn't say He monergized them to be evil.
This does not prove unilateral predetermination. It could just as well mean the work that God wants us to do.
You are the one denying sovereignty. You have God with no other existing free will or option than to unilaterally meticulously predetermine us just the way He did. He didn't know to do anything else. That is not freedom or sovereignty for God.
civic
Well-known member
the life of the 12 disciples with Jesus earthly ministry proves his doctrines/beliefs are wrong. It proves he is wrong regarding the understanding the gospel and the new birth.
The atonement doesn't fail, because it effectually universally brings all people to a decision. It does not give faith. But it is also particularly effectually brings those who have faith to salvation. Even the Amyraldian Calvinists believe that. There is no failure in the atonement.
You just conjure up a straw idea that says Arminian atonement fails.
But the failure is your view, because your view has God that can't save all because He has no other existing choice or ability than to meticulously predetermine according to the one script in His head, making God enslaved.
He is wrong about many things and will not allow the evidence to correct his views
Does it really matter, Is the one who hires the hitman innocent while the hitman is guilty alone?
In ascribing to God all that happens, Calvinism makes God the author of evil
The disciples walked on Earth in the presence of Lord and God Jesus Christ. Jesus chose and taught the disciples, and Jesus called the disciples His friends. I recall the Word of God "he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22) in the presence of God Himself and the disciples while on Earth.
The Holy Scripture states not whether "they [were] born again while with Jesus", so do not expect a speculative answer from me, civic. I won't answer your question with a yes nor no.
God caused me to ask you God's question. Where is your answer?
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
You believe not the Word of God!
Hear the Word of the Lord:
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
(Job 38:4)
I'm ready for a response to this question, civic.
Answer, you wise and intelligent one.
A dead in sin person cannot righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless that dead in sin born anew by God because thus says King Jesus "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3)
"The dead do not praise the LORD" (Psalm 115:17).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
The disciples did not understand many things which includes the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead. They were not born again until the Day of Pentecost which Jesus told them to wait for in the upper room.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, itcannot defile him;
Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time
Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Paul and Peter claim they were guided by the Holy Spirit in the writing of new Scripture.
Romans 15:4. 'For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we, through the patience and comfort of the Scripture might have hope. The OT was actually written for Christians and, indeed, for our times! Therefore we should certainly not ignore it.
Colossians 1:25-27 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to the saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1Peter 1:10-12.Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied to you of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which have now been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel yo you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven- things that even angels desire to look into.
These passages from Paul and Peter tell us that the OT prophets didn't fully understand their own writings. It is Paul to whom the 'mystery' of Christ has finally been fully revealed and who can fully understand the OT. Because of that we are able to read it in the light of the New Testament revelation. Jesus said it was Him that the scriptures testify to from Genesis through Malachi. John 5:39. These are the Scriptures that testify of Me.' The OT is all about the Lord Jesus Christ and we should expect to find Him in the Law of Moses, the Psalms and the Prophets just as Jesus told His disciples in the gospels.
Revelation is progressive from old to new and we need the new to understand and comprehend the old. We see this in Peters own life how He was transformed after Pentecost and was able at that time forward of proclaim with boldness and understanding the gospel as we read in Acts and his epistles just as Jesus promised to him that He would bring to remembrance all the things He has taught him. The same with John, James and Jude.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
I saw your link to reddit on another forum and see you are a fan of author pink. He was one of my favorites when I was a calvinist.
