In his theology, God does not love the world as the bible states doesYep
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
I explained what I was laughing at in my previous comment. You want your Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System to cloud and infect what the Bible actually says about Christ and our salvation. Christ is NOT a Hindu god that has instituted a Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System for our salvation. What is your Hindu pagan god going to do to me? Strike me with a thunderbolt?
You continue to misrepresent me on which RB's paragraph my comments were actually directed to. It's not beneath you to do that. See this link:
In fact, it's not beneath you to keep running away from Bible verses that expose the heresies of calvinism. I counted at least 4 times where you previously ran away and continue to run away from the truths of the Bible. See this link:
Run Kermos Run!
Free-willian you fraudulently fabricated a false statement against @Red Baker, and the following proves this fact, and your adherence to your prideful explanation proves you lack of repentance and apology, so God has me sticking with exposing your blatant error while corresponding with you.
Either you honor Christ, or you dishonor Christ. We shall see precisely whether you honor the Great King, Lord, and God Jesus Christ or not, very shortly.
You were clearly rolling on the floor laughing your a** off in order to mock the topic of Christ's salvation. A Christian does not mock Christ's salvation!
Absolutely correct. Without the Calvinist Elect/non-Elect Caste System, @Kermos's Calvinism becomes Universalism.ROFLMAO
You consider Christ's blessed deliverance a laughing matter because you vulgarly wrote "ROFLMAO" to your buddy @TibiasDad. No Christian demeans salvation by Christ.
I told you before, and I'm telling you again. If you want me to even consider addressing your points, then you need to apologize to Red Baker for your long standing and repeated position of bearing false witness against him as shown per the below.
You fail with basic linguistics, synergy, and the following bears this fact out.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I did.
Self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) you continues to refuse to apologize, that is clear, and you persist in bearing false witness against @Red Baker who stated:
Nicodemus' child like confession proved that he was already born of the Spirit of God, or, else he would had been just like the other leaders of the Pharisees who said that jesus did what he did under the power of the prince of the devils
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE TO GOD FOR CHRIST’S SALVATION!!!
You are simply in denial of Holy Scripture.
Joshua 24:31 is NOT a record God speaking, and God caused me to post the following to you.
No Holy Scripture that you cite contains the Word of God stating man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
Your post is so very heavily leavened with your own interpretation's error that your heart converts Joshua's word into TomL's word shown below.
God uses me to proclaim Truth (John 14:6), and I faced your deception, and God caused me to illuminate that you adulterate Holy Scripture in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God recorded in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, so your own interpretation's intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| TomL 24:14-31 | Joshua 24:14-31 | |
| 15 If it is evil in your sight to choose to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living, or the LORD by the ability God gave you to choose the One True God; but as for me and my house, we choose to serve the LORD. 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also choose to serve the LORD, for we believe that God created us with the ability to choose God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will be able to serve the LORD, for you are good. He is not a jealous God; He does not need to forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 you will not forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, so He will not turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but according to our free-will, we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are not witnesses against yourselves that you have used your God given ability to choose for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses for ourselves.” 23 “Now therefore, in your own initiative to judge rightly to choose to put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and cause your hearts to choose the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We do not care that God never says that He created us with the ability to choose to serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness benefiting us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness for you, so that your God does not deny you.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 "Israel," declares the LORD God, "successfully chose to put away the foreign gods, and Israel chose the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and the people have come into My Holy Presence in Heaven who died after Joshua died but before the elders died, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel, and I will abuse my Son, the Messiah, by sending Him to suffer needlessly because these people chose the LORD God causing themselves to be in my presence forevermore". (TomL 24:15-31) | 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 when you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel. (Joshua 24:14-31) |
Your heart deletes God's glorious self-description in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, and then you conveyed that the people were imparted by YHWH God with the "power to choose to serve God", so your actions are evidence of your opposition to the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)!
Your heart's thoughts exhibit the free-willian pattern of deleting God's glorious self-description while at the same time exalting man above the Most High with your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-description of your purported ability to control God with your "I chose God", and the above two paragraphs illuminate two separate instances; additionally, the evidence is throughout this thread.
Refer to post #3,237 for the integral continuation of this post, and this post #3,237 shows the people did not put away the foreign gods until multiple generations later thus not serving God with their whole heart during the time of Joshua and the elders.
God caused me to write:
No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
In your "you claimed they had no power to choose to serve God" you malignantly deleted the glorious description of "God imparted".
You fabricate a different writing than the writing that God caused me to compose. Then you argue against your fabrication. Your are being disengeious.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YOUR TESTIMONIES ARE FULLY CONFIRMED; HOLINESS BEFITS YOUR HOUSE, O YHWH, FOREVERMORE!!!
CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT is your preaching and teaching, civic. The following exposes your "Spiritual blindness coming from a carnal mind" (quoted from you, civic).
As explained to you previously, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses under consideration and brought up by you are shown below.
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your spirit makes false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
civic
Well-known member
2 Cor 4:4, Rev 12:10, Jn 8:44
Sorry this is inspired scripture
Joshua 24:15–31 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance. 29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash. 31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.
you have provided nothing to dispute the fact the Israelites were told to choose, did in fact choose and did serve God
How can free will be conjured by man if as you say God unilaterally predeterminately conjured the idea lest any man should boast?
You blindly step forward with "You did not address this". The Truth (John 14:6) is that God caused me to address Philippians 1:14 before you made your post, and this can be seen by following the post history.
For your convenience, please find where we left off below.
The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.
Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).
Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.
Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.
Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.
Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says ""you did not choose Me, but I chose you"" (John 15:16) and ""I chose you out of the world"" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.
The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:
- "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
- "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
- "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).
By God's grace, for God's glory!
You proved you lacking linguistics, again, because you frequently flaunt your falsehood that Philemon 1:14 fosters free-will as a concrete state for man.
Instead of answering a post that was not addressed to you, try sticking with the posts God causes me to compose to you which show the Sovereignty of God (and, incidentally, your exaltation of man above the Most High God according to your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10)).
Let’s review.
If your theology were true, then you would have been able to refute the following, but you didn't, and you can't refute the Word of God.
“The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
You preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and John 15:19).
You are blind because you broke the labeled link between continuous precursor post (see the "continued from post #3,261" in the "Kermos said" quotation inside your post), and God causes me to build upon the labeled integrated posts right now!
Since Lord Jesus says "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) as a requirement, then no one can work "for the food that endures to eternal life" unless such a one receives from God Himself "the food that endures to eternal life" (John 6:27), so this precious food is given by God to God's chosen persons.
Your writing of "Jesus told his hearers they had something to do You say there is nothing to do." regarding John 6:27 results in "the fact you make Christ a liar" when the Christ of us Christians says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) as well as this lovingly wonderful Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) as quoted to you in post #3,261, so the Word of God shows your deception about you driving God according to your choosing - even before you were born of the flesh.
That is not the only time your heart positions Christ as a liar, but you label Christ a deceiver as presented below based on your free-willian philosophy writings revealing your heart's gnostic (knowledge) human centered purported ability to perceive God before your eyes have been opened by God as per God in "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Your heart's treasure is that when Jesus Christ says God, He does not mean God, but, rather, He means man in at least one specific instance as we shall see below.
You preach your idiot Jesus who is an inferior orator; on the other hand, God causes me to proclaim Lord Jesus Who is the Master Orator with no equal.
You believe that your idiot Jesus is incapable of formulating a coherent sentence with the words that convey His intended meaning; on the other hand, I believe Jesus says what he means with precision, unambigatuity, and Truth (John 14:6).
You exalt your god Calvin above the One True God because you utilize your god Calvin's words "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" as your authority to suppress, eliminate, and adulterate the meaning of the Word of God:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (TomL 6:29) | This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29) |
Your adulterations to the word of God extend even farther:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (TomL 15:16) | you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) | |
| I chose exclusively you apostles and nobody else out of the world (TomL 15:19) | I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19) |
You have refused to present a public apology response for your application of the nauseous concept to the precious Holy Word of God!
The following Word of God is that which the both of you call nauseous! No Christian calls the Word of God nauseating.
The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces
- divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God - beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God - beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God - beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God - beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward) - beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God
And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!
No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REVEALER OF TRUTH, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
Ramble on but you never addressed the evidence presented
Free will
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(RASV)but without your consent I would do nothing; that your goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(UASV)but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by necessity but of your own free will.
Rather you just continue making Christ a liar and repeated already refuted arguments
TibiasDad
Well-known member
If he is honest about his theology, he will affirm it is God who causes men to oppose the doctrine he extols
Yes. He has God talking both sides of the argument, role playing both sides, like playing groups of toy soldiers against each other. They are not even responding to each other or scriptures but responding only to the puppet strings from above to look like they are.
civic
Well-known member
ditto
yep
Efficiently, sufficiently? Primary cause? Second cause? What do you mean by "cause"?
Does God unilaterally actuate/cause all those causes?
Does God tip the first domino for all those other causes?
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I have told you free-willians before, don't try to make this about me! I am here proclaiming and praising the Glorious and awesome Lord and King Jesus of the Kingdom of God!
Now let's return right back to where we were in this discourse, TibiasDad.
You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",
Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.
A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraudster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.
I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.
You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.
Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.
You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29) | This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29) | |
| the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21) | the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21) | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) | |
| I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25) | I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25) | |
| A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34) | A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34) | |
| You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time (The Book of Free-willians 15:16) | you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) | |
| I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19) | I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19) |
Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.
First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!
Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled as Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.
Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).
Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".
You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?
Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).
A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.
We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!
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You know according to your theology God is the ultimate cause of all things
Cause a cause?
There is only one creator. LOL
