An Article on free will

[Kermos]

So where is he?

Where was he in these verse

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


Matthias is not here when Jesus chose the 12

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.



Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim and you never actually address



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

To address your question, Matthias is with the apostles at the supper recorded in John chapter 15.

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Apostle Peter says Matthias accompanied the apostles all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among the apostles beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from the apostles (Acts 1:21-23), so you persist in calling the apostles all liars because Peter said Matthias was at the supper recorded in John chapter 15 as per the below. Your time reference skills are impaired because the conversation's explicit context of "you twelve" recorded in John 6:70-71 is not used by Jesus as the conversation's recorded in John 15:16-19, in fact, Jesus constrains not the context with "you twelve" anywhere recorded in John chapters 14-17; furthermore, your cognitive skills are impaired because Matthias was present per Peter when Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 6:70-71, but the Christ's reference was to "you twelve" in that particular instance - specifically telling everyone that one apostle would betray Him - and there is the context for John 6:70-71. Your heart obliterates Lord Jesus Christ's context.

Your god Smelley smells ungodly in your post!

You deceptively omit that the post to which you replied explains that Christ is the cause of we Christians good works. We Christians joyfully do the works caused by Christ. Let's look at it.

Let me know when you are going to stop calling Jesus a liar and avoiding arguments

sorry you ignored scripture, context, Greek scholarship and commentary

All repeat stuff which ignores rebuttal and is simply repeated over and over

But worse of all you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do

As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.

You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!

 

[TibiasDad]

You have no Word of God to support your thoughts - except you fabricate false words for God as shown below.

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing to approach His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
You chose Me, but I did not choose you (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST NOW AND FOREVER!!!

Your ignorance is second only to your lack of originality and apparent inability to interact well with others.

You have to create a strawman opponent to argue against, I can only assume, because you have either not studied the non-Cal position, or because you cannot refute what we actually believe. I’ll let you explain which one it is.

Doug

 

[TomL]

To address your question, Matthias is with the apostles at the supper recorded in John chapter 15.

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Apostle Peter says Matthias accompanied the apostles all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among the apostles beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from the apostles (Acts 1:21-23), so you persist in calling the apostles all liars because Peter said Matthias was at the supper recorded in John chapter 15 as per the below. Your time reference skills are impaired because the conversation's explicit context of "you twelve" recorded in John 6:70-71 is not used by Jesus as the conversation's recorded in John 15:16-19, in fact, Jesus constrains not the context with "you twelve" anywhere recorded in John chapters 14-17; furthermore, your cognitive skills are impaired because Matthias was present per Peter when Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 6:70-71, but the Christ's reference was to "you twelve" in that particular instance - specifically telling everyone that one apostle would betray Him - and there is the context for John 6:70-71. Your heart obliterates Lord Jesus Christ's context.

Your god Smelley smells ungodly in your post!

You deceptively omit that the post to which you replied explains that Christ is the cause of we Christians good works. We Christians joyfully do the works caused by Christ. Let's look at it.



As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.

You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).​

​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!

You never answered the question

So where is he?

Where was he in these verse

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


Matthias is not here when Jesus chose the 12

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.



Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim and you never actually address



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

 

[TomL]

Essentially, the article indicates that the entirety of the clause between the article and its noun are a cohesive unit. The noun being responsible for the verbal action indicated.

Doug

More than enough evidence to show Kermos does not have a clue regarded the Greek of the text

 

[TomL]

You have no Word of God to support your thoughts - except you fabricate false words for God as shown below.

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing to approach His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
You chose Me, but I did not choose you (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST NOW AND FOREVER!!!

Free will choosing you cannot rebut

Joshua 24:15–31 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance. 29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash. 31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

 

[TomL]

Fundamentally, you are asking, is God Almighty? Or, asked another way, does God reign in the affairs of man? We must turn to Holy Scripture for the Truth (John 14:6)!

God declares to man his thoughts:

​

behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!​

(Amos 4:13)​

​

“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

And the Apostle Peter declares the Power of God:

​

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"​

(2 Peter 2:9-10).​

​

God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way, and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:

​

"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"​

(Philippians 2:13).​

​

Hear Apostolic testimony about God's Hand intimately controlling people's lives, even Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel:

​

"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,​

'Why did the Gentiles rage,​

​

And the peoples devise futile things?​

​

'The kings of the earth took their stand,​

​

And the rulers were gathered together​

​

Against the Lord and against His Christ.'​

​

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."​

(Acts 4:24-30, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)​

​

The Apostle Paul wrote of people who exalt the creature above the Grand Creator:

​

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"​

(2 Thessalonians 2:11).​

​

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (The Word of God, John 6:29).

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!

No, he is simply questioning your false belief that God determines all the thoughts, desires and actions of men

 

[civic]

Your ignorance is second only to your lack of originality and apparent inability to interact well with others.

You have to create a strawman opponent to argue against, I can only assume, because you have either not studied the non-Cal position, or because you cannot refute what we actually believe. I’ll let you explain which one it is.

Doug

Spot on brother

 

[civic]

No, he is simply questioning your false belief that God determines all the thoughts, desires and actions of men

Yes he is a fatalist

 

[Kampioen]

You have no Word of God to support your thoughts - except you fabricate false words for God as shown below.

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing to approach His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
You chose Me, but I did not choose you (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST NOW AND FOREVER!!!

How can man fabricate anything if you say God fabricates and actuates man's thoughts and actions? It's all God's fabrication and works, not of man's works, lest any man should boast, and God blames man for it when man has nothing to do with it. You make God a hypocrite.

 

[civic]

How can man fabricate anything if you say God fabricates and actuates man's thoughts and actions? It's all God's fabrication and works, not of man's works, lest any man should boast, and God blames man for it when man has nothing to do with it. You make God a hypocrite.

Exactly

 

[TomL]

Yes he is a fatalist

Wonder if he will own up to it or like the other one deny it.

 

[Kermos]

More of the same gobblygook and cut n paste .

You defended @TibiasDad's post of:

Their free choice is what makes them believers/children of God

The interesting thing is that you and @TomL vehemently deny the writings that God causes me to write, such as:

You convey that man driving his belief to point at Jesus causes that man to be born again. With that in mind, you convey that man causes himself to be born again because man works faith/belief inside himself thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, and your "God causes to be born again those who cause themselves to believe /those who cause themselves to receive Christ" is that conveyance, but we are about to see that your conveyance is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Nobody causes himself to be born, so your conveyance is confusion (2 Corinthians 5:14).

The Christ of us Christians lovingly declares "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

Behold, your free-willian brother TibiasDad wrote "Their free choice is what makes them believers/children of God" which is precisely the same conveyance as this which God caused me to write "You convey that man driving his belief to point at Jesus causes that man to be born again".

Your free-willian philosophy denies "The dead praise not Yahweh" (Psalm 115:17), and God caused me to write to you "the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ)" in post #3,084.

Your Free-willian Philosophy holds that the dead in sin cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ), so your Free-willian Philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ).

Additionally, you call all of this loving blessed Word of God your heart's evil gobblygook again:

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE EVERLASTING!!!

 

[civic]

You defended @TibiasDad's post of:



The interesting thing is that you and @TomL vehemently deny the writings that God causes me to write, such as:



Behold, your free-willian brother TibiasDad wrote "Their free choice is what makes them believers/children of God" which is precisely the same conveyance as this which God caused me to write "You convey that man driving his belief to point at Jesus causes that man to be born again".

Your free-willian philosophy denies "The dead praise not Yahweh" (Psalm 115:17), and God caused me to write to you "the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ)" in post #3,084.

Your Free-willian Philosophy holds that the dead in sin cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ), so your Free-willian Philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ).

Additionally, you call all of this loving blessed Word of God your heart's evil gobblygook again:

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE EVERLASTING!!!

Unlike you I defend the truth and my brothers / sisters in Christ

 

[Kermos]

How can man fabricate anything if you say God fabricates and actuates man's thoughts and actions? It's all God's fabrication and works, not of man's works, lest any man should boast, and God blames man for it when man has nothing to do with it. You make God a hypocrite.

Did you not read in post #3,817 that was to you yet unreplied and which contains the quote from the Apostle Peter saying the self-willed do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties (2 Peter 2:9-10)? His Majesty King Jesus proclaims as described in the post #3,819 to @TibiasDad, and which you replied, the following:

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).

You daringly revile His Majesty King Jesus of the Kingdom of God when self-willed you identified Him as hypocrite Jesus.

Self-willed people are accountable to God for their crimes against God leading to everlasting punishment for the self-willed people who die in their self-will.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS MAJESTY KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD FOREVER FOR HIS MERCY AND GRACE!!!

 

[TomL]

You defended @TibiasDad's post of:



The interesting thing is that you and @TomL vehemently deny the writings that God causes me to write, such as:



Behold, your free-willian brother TibiasDad wrote "Their free choice is what makes them believers/children of God" which is precisely the same conveyance as this which God caused me to write "You convey that man driving his belief to point at Jesus causes that man to be born again".

Your free-willian philosophy denies "The dead praise not Yahweh" (Psalm 115:17), and God caused me to write to you "the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ)" in post #3,084.

Your Free-willian Philosophy holds that the dead in sin cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ), so your Free-willian Philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ).

Additionally, you call all of this loving blessed Word of God your heart's evil gobblygook again:

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE EVERLASTING!!!

Still calling Christ a liar

John 6:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

and still failing to observe context which explains John 3:3

John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[TibiasDad]

You convey that man driving his belief to point at Jesus causes that man to be born again".

No, we convey that God requires us to believe, and that he has promised us that if we do believe he will save us.

Note that God obligates himself to save; it is not our belief that obligates God to save us, but his promise to save if we believe.

My belief has no power whatsoever to oblige God to act; it is only God’s promise to do so when we believe that obligates him to do so, otherwise he would be a liar!

If God had not promised first, our belief would be without effect. God could just say ‘So what?’ Or ‘Your belief and a dollar would get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds!’

Without the promise preceding, our belief is meaningless. Without the promise, their is nothing to believe in!


Doug

 

[Kermos]

Your ignorance is second only to your lack of originality and apparent inability to interact well with others.

You have to create a strawman opponent to argue against, I can only assume, because you have either not studied the non-Cal position, or because you cannot refute what we actually believe. I’ll let you explain which one it is.

Doug

A little history before a question to you, TibiasDad.

By God's grace for God's glory, I extended the courtesy of carefully identifying where you free-willians fraudulently fabricate statements which you attribute to me in order for you free-willians to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statements instead of that which God caused me to write; in fact, a very recent incident is recorded in post #3,834.

I have a straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!

 

[Rockson]

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God;

You're purposely being unjustly extreme in your use of hyperbole here. I don't know anyone here who doesn't believe that God doesn't seek to inspire and woo the sinner with an anointing and passionate plea for them to turn to God. You want to wrongly assert we believe God does NOTHING. None believe that but I'm guessing you won't stop trying to assert that. But what most believe is that God does not force one's free will not to exist. You can still have free will and have God working with the sinner to receive his grace.

 

[TibiasDad]

A little history before a question to you, TibiasDad.

By God's grace for God's glory, I extended the courtesy of carefully identifying where you free-willians fraudulently fabricate statements which you attribute to me in order for you free-willians to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statements instead of that which God caused me to write; in fact, a very recent incident is recorded in post #3,834.

It is an interesting observation that your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent or accusing us of illegality or fabrication that these are all legal terms and concepts, which is quite ironic for someone who believes in the so called doctrines of grace. If we are to
believe in your doctrines of grace, it would be a much easier pill to swallow if it were done graciously with kindness and compassion.

I have a straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ"

It is a strawman argument because I have never said anything close to this, nor have @civic or @TomL.

We don’t believe or teach that we can come to God independent of God’s grace and first movement toward us. That is the erroneous notion of your argument. It is thus, a strawman argument!

I have stated unambiguously in another post that the promise of God precedes belief, and it is his promise, not our belief, that obligates God. Without the promise, there is nothing to believe in!


Doug

 

[civic]

It is an interesting observation that your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent or accusing us of illegality or fabrication that these are all legal terms and concepts, which is quite ironic for someone who believes in the so called doctrines of grace. If we are to
believe in your doctrines of grace, it would be a much easier pill to swallow if it were done graciously with kindness and compassion.




It is a strawman argument because I have never said anything close to this, nor have @civic or @TomL.

We don’t believe or teach that we can come to God independent of God’s grace and first movement toward us. That is the erroneous notion of your argument. It is thus, a strawman argument!

I have stated unambiguously in another post that the promise of God precedes belief, and it is his promise, not our belief, that obligates God. Without the promise, there is nothing to believe in!


Doug

Amen brother