praise_yeshua
Well-known member
A choice doesn't require ability. It is simply a "placeholder" for causality.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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A choice doesn't require ability. It is simply a "placeholder" for causality.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Not from a primary perspective. However, it does when God has promised to operate based upon a choice. The free will has causal impact. Thusly, it can be determined that "whosoever" is not a primary cause made by God. Primary cause was expressed in the establishment of the variables of choice.
You know enough about website design to understand this. It is a many to many construct. You built your website by defining choices. You gave your visitors the ability to chose. You didn't predetermine their choice.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Sometimes choices are ignored. It is not a matter of volition. It is simply a "I don't know or I don't care". There is an absence of will.
You have to realize just how silly some of these historical constructs "play out" with the "predefined limits" of religions.
The outcome in the theological perspective is predetermined based upon predefined constraints of man made preconceived constructs.
Example, the current human perspective is so blinded by how they accept the "norms" of existence, they really have little choice. They let others choose for them. They are lazy and refuse to put forth the effort to gain the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision.
This is much more complicated than most will allow in their system. They will purposely ignore the duty of man to seek God.
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
brightfame52
Well-known member
In Jn 3:16 is qualifies those who are believing, believing is a present tense participle, its not a requirement of command
Johann
Well-known member
The statement "whosoever does not mean free will" is a broad and potentially ambiguous statement that requires further context to fully understand.
The term "whosoever" is often used in the Bible to refer to anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and accepts Him as their Lord and Savior. This belief is often seen as a choice that individuals make, which could be interpreted as an exercise of free will.
However, the concept of free will is a complex and nuanced topic within Christian theology, with different interpretations and perspectives. Some Christians believe in the idea of free will, which emphasizes the importance of human choice and responsibility in relation to salvation.
Others emphasize the sovereignty of God in salvation, suggesting that God's grace and election play a more significant role in determining who is saved.Ultimately, the relationship between "whosoever" and free will depends on one's theological perspective and interpretation of Scripture. While some may argue that "whosoever" implies free will, others may see it as a statement of God's grace and invitation to all who believe in Jesus Christ.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
In rabbinical literature, the concept of free will is known as chefetz chayim (חיים צפוץ), which translates roughly to "desire of life." The Talmudic texts, such as Pirke Avot (Chapter 3, Mishnah 19), discuss the tension between divine providence and human freedom, raising questions similar to those encountered in Christian thought
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3909393/jewish/Free-Will.htm
https://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos-chapter3-19c/
.Maimonides, a prominent medieval Jewish philosopher, addressed the issue of free will in light of divine omniscience, arguing that God's knowledge does not compromise human agency. Maimonides suggested that God's knowledge is not external to the universe and therefore does not impact the reality of free will
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3909393/jewish/Free-Will.htm
https://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos-chapter3-19c/
.Scriptural references supporting the existence of free will in Judaism include:
- Genesis 2:16: God tells Adam that eating from the tree of knowledge will result in death, implying that Adam has a choice in the matter.
- Deuteronomy 30:19-20: Moses exhorts the Israelites to choose life, indicating that they have the option to follow God's commandments or reject them.
- Proverbs 16:9: Solomon writes that the heart of humankind plans its course, again implying that humans have the ability to make choices.
brother-you are losing this debate-no offense.
J.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There has never been any sense of a constrained will within Judaism. Never. It doesn't exist. It is good to see someone recognize this.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Your response has nothing whatsoever to do with your use of the word "whomsoever".
Johann
Well-known member
The question of whether the gospel is for whomsoever or only the elect is a topic of theological debate and interpretation.
Some Christians believe in the doctrine of predestination, which holds that God has already chosen who will be saved and who will not.
Others believe in free will, which allows individuals to choose whether or not to accept the gospel message. However, the Bible contains numerous verses that suggest that the gospel is for all people, not just a select few.
For example, John 3:16 states, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
This verse emphasizes that God's love and salvation are available to all who believe in Jesus, not just a chosen few. Similarly, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
This verse indicates that God desires all people to be saved and come to know the truth of the gospel. Therefore, while the question of whom the gospel is for may be a matter of interpretation, the Bible suggests that it is available to all who believe in Jesus.
J.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
My point, exactly. Whosoever believes is "those who believe". Available to all who believe. Which says nothing about how one believes and another doesn't.
Johann
Well-known member
The Bible defines belief in Christianity as more than just an intellectual agreement with certain facts. It involves trust and commitment to God and His Word, which results in a change of behavior.
To believe in Christ is to commit our lives by faith to Him, to trust Him personally as our Lord and Savior, and to obey His commands.
The Greek word for "believe" in the New Testament means to be convinced of something, to give credence to, and to trust. It is not enough to simply accept the historical facts of Jesus' death and resurrection; we must accept them as true for ourselves and acknowledge that He did it for us.
Biblical faith is never simply giving assent to a certain set of facts; it is trust and commitment that result in a change of behavior. Therefore, belief in Christianity involves not only acknowledging the truth of God's Word but also trusting in Christ alone as the only way to obtain eternal life with God.
J.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I agree. I have already posted that "believe in" is misleading. "You believe there is one God? Good! So do demons and shudder."
I prefer "trust in" or "believe on". Again, whosoever still doesn't tell you why one person trusts and another does not. You assume free will. I assume election. I think there is far more scripture to support election, but that's a whole 'nother rabbit hole. I'm simply pointing out that "whosoever" does not tell you the difference.
You have been repeating your "You have not shown God unconditionally chooses men for Salvation" free-willian philosophy over and over again, despite the fact that the Word of God declares man's inability to choose God with the amazing sayings:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so God exclusively chooses people.
- "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
God has me repeating the Truth (John 14:6) because the Light (John 1:1-5) pierces the darkness.
Christ is speaking to every Christian to take the message of Christ's salvation to all.
You propounded "Christs choice of his messengers, His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while he was with all the Apostles.
Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:
Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!
Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.
Since God declares that man cannot choose God unto salvation (John 15:16-19), and God declares God chooses man unto salvation (John 15:16-19), then the choice is exclusively God's domain regarding man's salvation without man working a choice whatsoever (John 15:16-19); therefore, your thoughts "It is not speaking of unconditionally choosing men for salvation" are out of accord with God.
Lord Jesus Christ saying “the twelve" is a constraint on the “you" within His sayings of “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." (John 6:70) specifically; however, the “you" within "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) is expansive (that is, unconstrained by anything like “the twelve" of John 6:70), so Lord Jesus conveys these blessings recorded in John 15:16-19 to all believers in all time.
In effect, you preach "you twelve only did not choose Me, but I chose only the twelve of you" and "I chose just you twelve out of the world" instead of the Truth (John 14:6) the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
The words recorded in John 12:40 are a powerful expression of God's control over man.
The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals
The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).
The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh is hostile against God and the flesh cannot please God with "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).
Man possesses no free-will choosing ability toward God as shown in John 12:40, so this passage shows the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:18-23).
The words recorded in Acts 28:27 are a powerful expression of God's control over man.
Man possesses no free-will choosing ability toward God as shown in Acts 28:27, so this passage shows the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!
The words recorded in Mark 4:10–12 are a powerful expression of God's control over man.
Man possesses no free-will choosing ability toward God as shown in Mark 4:10–12, so this passage shows the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!
The words recorded in Luke 8:13 are a powerful expression of God's control over man.
Lord Jesus says "these have no root" (Luke 8:13), and none of those people with "no root" remain because they are not rooted in Lord Jesus Christ (John 15:1-5), and we find saving faith/belief is rooted in the Living God "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent" (John 6:29) which endures for life, Hallelujah and Amen!
Your free-will support group fails to have God given saving faith/belief (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).
Man possesses no free-will choosing ability toward God as shown in Luke 8:13, so this passage shows the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!
The binding Word (John 1:1-5) Lights all the remaining passages which you mentioned, John 1:6–7, John 5:45–47, John 4:39, John 17:20, John 20:31, 2 Timothy 3:15, Ephesians 3:4–11, Romans 10:10–17, and Acts 28:23–24, and the binding Word is Lord Jesus, Himself (John 1:14).
Let's look at a couple of these passages in more detail.
Jesus is the Apostle's Word, so "their Word" is Jesus Christ, and the Christian's "Word" causes Christians to "believe" because the Word of God says "for them also which shall believe on me because of their Word" (John 17:20).
Listen to "So then belief comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17). The Apostle Paul indicates that a person hearing is accomplished by the Word of God, this Word who is the Root for Christian belief which comes by hearing. This very belief mentioned by Paul is the exclusive work of God for the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent" (John 6:29) which endures for life by God's grace for God's glory!
There is absolutely no degree that any person chooses the Righteous God because the Righteous Word of God declares that a man is incapable of choosing right which includes inability to choose the Righteous One unto salvation according to His Powerful saying:
And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (Luke 12:57[/URL]).
Johann
Well-known member
The verses you mentioned, John 15:16 and 15:19, are often interpreted in the context of God's sovereignty and the belief that salvation and service are ultimately initiated by God. The phrase "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" is typically understood to mean that God, through Jesus, chooses or elects individuals for a particular purpose, including salvation and service. This interpretation is supported by various commentaries and theological discussions on the verse.
However, it is important to note that there are different interpretations of these verses among different Christian traditions. Some interpret them to mean that God chooses individuals for salvation based on His foreknowledge of their faith, while others believe that God's choice is unconditional and not based on any human merit or action.
Regardless of the interpretation, it is clear that the verses emphasize the importance of God's initiative in salvation and service, and the role of believers in sharing the message of Christ's salvation with the world. The phrase "I chose you out of the world" in John 15:19 can be understood as a call to believers to live in the world but not be of the world, and to share the message of salvation with those who have not yet heard it.
In summary, the verses you mentioned emphasize the importance of God's initiative in salvation and service, and the role of believers in sharing the message of Christ's salvation with the world. The interpretation of these verses may vary among different Christian traditions, but the message of God's sovereignty and the call to share the gospel remains the same.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Your comments reflect many assumptions. You assume that God always has His way.
You need to establish your premise. You can't. Like all Calvinists, you live in half truths and assumptions.
Sometimes, Grace fails.
You know how I know? I know the Scriptures.
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
God doesn't always get everything He desires. Love doesn't seek it's own. Compliance without freedom of will means nothing.
Only silly men believe such nonsense as this. God doesn't cease to be God because someone fails of the Grace of God.
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Choice of Christ';s disciples - his messenger who would carry his message to the world
Compare with the parable of the wedding feast
Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.
Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.
Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.
Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.
So you say
Asserting it is not proving it
Disciples - messenger they are more the 12
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two
10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. 2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I am sending you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. 4 Carry no moneybag, no knapsack, no sandals, and greet no one on the road. 5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house. 8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
Woe to Unrepentant Cities
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
The Return of the Seventy-Two
17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 1
1 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 10:1–20.
But we have no evidence that either of those two were there on that occasion.
As not even the apostles were always all together
Is it not clear the choice was not to unconditional salvation
Lord Jesus Christ saying “the twelve" is a constraint on the “you" within His sayings of “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." (John 6:70)
Jesus had selected 12 one of the 12 was a devil
There is simply no evidence at all of unconditional election to salvation
later Jesus states they were given to him by the father
John 17:1–7 (NASB 2020) — 1 Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed. 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything which You have given Me is from You;
They were not men unconditionally selected but men who were the father's
The passage simply does not prove unconditional election to salvation
John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
You failed to address the key point
God hardened them to prevent their believing. If they are born incapable of believing as your theology teaches, there would be no such need
BTW
Romans 11:28–32 (KJV 1900) — 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
God does not arbitrarily withhold mercy
Paul showed in his summary statement of Romans 9
Romans 9:30–33 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Those who found righteousness - mercy were those with faith. Those who failed to find it sought it by works of the law
and
Romans 10:16–21 (KJV 1900) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Israel's failure was their own fault.
i
Romans 11:20–23 (KJV 1900) — 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
They were cutoff because of their unbelief, not an unconditional decree by God
And they could remedy it if they remained not in unbelief
Read Rom 9 in context
Israel's problem was not unconditional election but their own unfaithfulness
Again missing the point
These men were not born hardened as your theology teaches, rather they grew hardened in time and shut their eyes. Had they not done so, they could have believed and been saved
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The text is contrary to your claim
end pt1
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This appears to be bald denial of the text
Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Truth was being hidden so that they might not believe at this time
What need is there to hide truth from those who have no capacity to believe it?
Rom 9 read in context Rom 9-11 does not support you
Men failed to find righteousness because of their disobedience and a lack of faith. Those with faith found it.
More denial
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Skipping over the fact, they believed. Your theology states they have no ability to do so
The text refutes that claim
Ps there is nothing about infused or effectually cause faith in Eph 2:8 or John 6:29
but lets see
Joshua 24:15–25 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
seems scripture denies your claim
Except, your theology teaches the gospel is ineffective. Man cannot believe it. He first has to be given new life outside of Christ contrary to scripture, then he can believe it
But our text states faith cometh by hearing and many verses indicate given revelation he can believe
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Except
John 6:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
They were asking what are the works of God they should do
Jesus did not say you can do nothing, he told them to believe
Much like
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Johann
Well-known member
Excellent debate.
J.
glad you enjoy it
Johann
Well-known member
I thoroughly enjoy it-you are the right man for the brother.
J.
