All Claims of The Son's Deity

You shared Dan 7:13-14 that reveals someone who is like a son of man. Jesus is like a son of man because he is first divine in the Godhead but then becomes physically as the Son of Man. These tie together in wonderful harmony that no Christian could miss.
Son of man means human in the Bible. Ezekiel was called son of man too.
Ezekiel 2​
1“Son of man,” He said to me, “stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.”​

Humans are also called son of God just like Jesus.

Romans 8​
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.​

Conclusion, your ping pong game of switching positions between son of man and son of God isn't helpful to prove your point.
 
You shared Dan 7:13-14 that reveals someone who is like a son of man. Jesus is like a son of man because he is first divine in the Godhead but then becomes physically as the Son of Man. These tie together in wonderful harmony that no Christian could miss.
Then I listed...

John 8:40
Acts 2:22
Acts 17:31

That you don't mention and you denied without listing a verse.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
 
Then I listed...

John 8:40
Acts 2:22
Acts 17:31

That you don't mention and you denied without listing a verse.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
oh. the numbers game or statistics is more important to you than the meaning of verses.
 
I think you're overgeneralizing what Jesus said and applying it to everyone else. See he said, "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." when speaking to the Jewish religious leaders at that time. He wasn't talking about all of prophets who had already seen and heard the Father.
Is seeing the Father's form just addressed to the "you"?
Or also known to the Old Testament believers?
 
The last I looked, Hosea 12:4 was part of scripture ---- if you want to disregard Hosea 12:4, go ahead.
But scripture as a whole should fit together and harmonize.
In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought his favor.
[Hosea 12:3,4a] clearly says he strove with the angel and prevailed . . . God sending his angel to act as His agent - the angel fully represented God and was referenced as God - that is the only way to have the record in 1 Samuel and the record in Hosea harmonize.
I did not question the text, but the mention of "shaliah," can you give me what's the Strong number of that Hebrew word?
You just pick phrase that aligns to you preconceived belief, can't you see what I colored red above in your quoted text?
Yes, the "He strove with the angel and prevailed" do then that proves that the name "Israel" means "angel prevails?"
Just see Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon below.

Gen 32:28 Then R1he saidH559, “Your nameH8034 shall noH3808 longerH5750 be JacobH3290, but N1IsraelH3478; for you have contendedH8280 with GodH430 and with menH376, and have prevailedH3201.”

H3478
ישׂראל yiśrâ'êl
BDB Definition:

Israel = “God prevails”
the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel.
 
oh. the numbers game or statistics is more important to you than the meaning of verses.
Yes the number of Scripture that you can't address so you pick at the pictures I include and count how many verses I use all the while addressing nothing about what those verses says. And then you say I don't post anything of substance when the truth is I do and I do so well that you can't address the substance so you pick at me personally or make fun of the photo I use. Why? Because I'm too powerful in the Scriptures for you.
 
If the Son is divine in the same way as the Father, then we would expect to find that the authors of the Old Testament give divine names, titles, and attributes to the Son. We also expect to find that He is described as doing divine works and that He is the object of divine worship.

So, the deity of the Son will be based on exactly the same kind of evidence that demonstrates the deity of the Father. If we deny the validity of the evidence for the deity of the Son, then, we must logically denied the validity of the evidence for the deity of the Father. What is valid for the One is equally valid for the Other.

I point this out because Unitarians will accept the validity of such evidence as divine names and titles only when such things are used to prove the deity of the Father. But, when the exact same evidence is used to prove the deity of the Son, they will claim that it is not acceptable.

The inconsistency of the Unitarians on this point is indicative of a lack of willingness to let the evidence lead you where it will.
Trinitarians are inconsistent and ignore the fact that Jesus does not share all of the divine names and titles of God. God doesn't lack His own divine names and titles, but Jesus does. Jesus is never called YHWH, the God of Abraham, Lord of hosts, the I AM, God Almighty, for about a dozens names/titles all together.

Based on your argument, since titles alone make someone God, then if they lack God's titles then they are not God. You have just provided a powerful argument against the deity of Jesus.

Also, some of the titles that God has are also shared by other humans who are not Jesus.

Trinitarians use a false dichotomy, circular reasoning, and selective evidence to abide in error.
 
Last edited:
It has everything to do with the broad discussion. The Angel is Yahweh. That voids your whole perspective.
Thanks but obviously, I disagree.
I share this twice since you always miss details... The idea being "made" is about being humbled. If Jesus was just a human, he hardly would have to be humbled to be human.
You can share your idea about Psalm 8 being quoted in Hebrews 100 times and I still would disagree. Psalm 8 is about humanity, pure and simple. Being quoted in Hebrews includes Jesus in the 'kind', 'class' of humanity, i.e. little lower than the angels to 'show off', to 'declare' his exaltation --- above the angels.
Jesus indeed can be divine Son as the spirit of him while his flesh is incarnate. We see in scripture where the spirit of man is dead or empty and is made alive through Christ. Obviously Jesus is incarnate so not just spirit. As far as saying "Jesus preexisted," that is not good wording if you mean somehow that his flesh pre-existed. But yes there was the preexistence that we will call the Son in all his divinity and became incarnate. I am uncertain if we call him a Son yet, but I think that is proper.
Just to be clear ---- Did Jesus preexist as the Son or did the Son preexist as God?
God is Spirit so wouldn't his 'kind' would be spirit?
. . . which is why we must be born again, i.e. born of the Spirit. Was Jesus Spirit?
Man being made alive in Christ is the new birth . . . nothing to do with "Jesus can be 'divine Son' as the spirit of him while his flesh is incarnate" ----- whatever that is supposed to mean.

With all that disputing of whether Jesus preexisted (although he is the Son) or whether we should call him 'the Son' who preexisted . . . . you didn't answer the question. So, WHOEVER preexisted was the pre-existent someone God?
The idea being "made" is about being humbled. If Jesus was just a human, he hardly would have to be humbled to be human. It is such makeshift arguments that unitarians share.
I know he was human - made a little lower than the angels - the verse is in reference to humanity and is including Jesus in that group - being made a little lower than the angels BUT now exalted at the right hand of the Majesty on high, exalted ABOVE the angels. The End of that subject!

I just believe he was fully human from his mother, a descendant of David according to his genealogy. . . . What about Jesus genealogy? Was that included in scripture to make him seem more like 'just a human being'?
You convert Thomas recognition of what Jesus said and turn it into just a false lead, a nothing meaning.

you really hate anyone testifying that Jesus is God. You convert direct acknowledgment of Jesus as God into just being a representative or agent. You have no basis except your imagination.
Nope. When you read the whole chapter together - it helps understand that Thomas is recognizing the truth of what Jesus had been teaching - If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. . . . Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Thomas knew who Jesus was My Lord - From Jesus' teaching - he knew who Jesus represented - My God - He saw what Jesus had taught - From now on you do know him and have seen him."
I hate when someone twists scripture to fit a Triune God narrative and twist to testify that Jesus is God - I hate lies.
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. [1 John 2:22] testifying that Jesus is God is a lie - Jesus is the Messiah, the anointed of God who is the Father, the only true God.
 
Thanks but obviously, I disagree.

You can share your idea about Psalm 8 being quoted in Hebrews 100 times and I still would disagree. Psalm 8 is about humanity, pure and simple. Being quoted in Hebrews includes Jesus in the 'kind', 'class' of humanity, i.e. little lower than the angels to 'show off', to 'declare' his exaltation --- above the angels.


Man being made alive in Christ is the new birth . . . nothing to do with "Jesus can be 'divine Son' as the spirit of him while his flesh is incarnate" ----- whatever that is supposed to mean.

With all that disputing of whether Jesus preexisted (although he is the Son) or whether we should call him 'the Son' who preexisted . . . . you didn't answer the question. So, WHOEVER preexisted was the pre-existent someone God?

I know he was human - made a little lower than the angels - the verse is in reference to humanity and is including Jesus in that group - being made a little lower than the angels BUT now exalted at the right hand of the Majesty on high, exalted ABOVE the angels. The End of that subject!

I just believe he was fully human from his mother, a descendant of David according to his genealogy. . . . What about Jesus genealogy? Was that included in scripture to make him seem more like 'just a human being'?

Nope. When you read the whole chapter together - it helps understand that Thomas is recognizing the truth of what Jesus had been teaching - If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. . . . Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Thomas knew who Jesus was My Lord - From Jesus' teaching - he knew who Jesus represented - My God - He saw what Jesus had taught - From now on you do know him and have seen him."
I hate when someone twists scripture to fit a Triune God narrative and twist to testify that Jesus is God - I hate lies.
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. [1 John 2:22] testifying that Jesus is God is a lie - Jesus is the Messiah, the anointed of God who is the Father, the only true God.
I like it...

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
 

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

I hate when someone twists scripture to fit a Triune God narrative or to twist to testify that Jesus is God - I hate lies.

1 John 2:22-23
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:


cc: @amazing grace
 

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

I hate when someone twists scripture to fit a Triune God narrative or to twist to testify that Jesus is God - I hate lies.

1 John 2:22-23
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:


cc: @amazing grace
So true. The big question would be - Why can't they see it?

Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” [Acts 17:29-31]
 
Yes, the I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus in human nature did not come to earth to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many including us.

But if you believe what Jesus said in John 5:37, whose voice was that in Exodus 3:14,15?

As the Father revealed Himself to Samuel by the word (Jesus pre-incarnate) of the LORD. 1Sam 3:21.
And we know Jesus said no one except Him has ever seen the Father. And we know many in the O.T. saw YHWH.

So we know for a fact they did not see the Father but someone else identified as YHWH in the O.T. That can only be the Son- the Great I Am. :)


John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father
 
Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?

We know for a fact it was not the Father. :)

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

hope this helps !!!
 
More evidence unitarianism is false.

Isaiah 43: 11- Yahweh said that He is our only Savior- Even I Am Yahweh and there is no other Savior besides Me. This verse is very clear as to its meaning. We see that Yahweh is the Name God bestowed on Jesus and it is Yahweh which is the Name that is above every name and it is Yahweh to which every knee will bow. There is no mistaking that Paul declares in his epistles that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is our Lord Yahweh in the New Testament as well as our Savior. These were the specific names that were Gods alone in the Old Testament. Yahweh is the name given by God for Himself. In the OT YHWH and was considered so holy that a devout Jew would not pronounce it. God revealed His name to Moses in Exodus 3:14 When God said, "I Am Who I AM." YHWH is only used to refer to the one true God. His name and glory were not to be given to another. Isaiah wrote:” Thus says the Lord (YHWH)I Am the First and I Am the Last and beside me there is no God. "I Am (YHWH) that is My name; and My Glory I will not give to another, neither My praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8) That is why the Jews picked up stones and accused Jesus of blasphemy when He claimed to be YHWH. Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (Matt 25:31, John 5:27) Joel quotes Yahweh as saying, "For there I will sit to judge all surrounding nations" (Joel 3:12).Jesus prayed, "Father, glorify Me with Thy own self with the Glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5) But here we read that YHWH said, "I will not give My Glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8). But we see in Scripture that God/Yahweh offers all His Glory to Jesus. Christ says, "I Am the first and the last" (Rev 1:17) the exact words used by YHWH in Isaiah 42:28. In John 8:58 where Jesus says:” Before Abraham was born, I Am." Jesus was either "guilty" as the Jews charged Him of blasphemy, or He is who He claimed to be(YHWH). He clearly claimed to be God. If He is only a good teacher or prophet then He would be a liar as the late CS Lewis once said on par with a poached egg, because He claimed equality with God and no created being has equality with God. The Jews knew and understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming. (John 8:58, 10:31-33). We can clearly see the identity of the Almighty God of scripture and He is none other than Jesus who is YHWH(Almighty God) in the flesh. He appeared to men in the OT as the angel(messenger) of the Lord and now is permanently both YHWH and man. He is forever the Godman in the flesh. YHWH has come in the flesh and those who deny this scripture declares are the spirit of antichrist(1 John 4:1-4, 2 John 7).


John 1:18 says, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God/Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared of explained Him." And then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath sen the Father." The point being made is the fact that the Son of God is the visible manifestation of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the kicker verse if you wil is John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. YOU HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." So Jesus here out His own mouth says you have neither heard the Fathers voice nor seen His form."

Jesus is the Lord 9 YHWH ) in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah. No ambiguity

Joel 2:27-32

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Paul quotes Joel below and says it is Jesus who is the Lord(YHWH) whom all will call upon


Romans 10:9-13

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isaiah 45:21-24

Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'


Now Paul quotes Isaiah about YHWH and declares it is Jesus(YHWH) whom all will bow before,

Philippians 2:9-11

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Isaiah 6:1-5

In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,
5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Below John says Isaiah saw His ( Jesus the Son's ) glory. This was the only time the prophet Isaiah saw the Lord ( YHWH )

John 12:41

These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him


Jeremiah 17:10
the Lord says
"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God ( YHWH ) why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God Himself as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!
 
Exactly, neither Jesus or his disciples baptized according to Matthew 28:19 as I just said. Jesus didn't do it because he didn't baptize people himself. The disciples didn't do it because they were not told to. You seem to have misread what I said.
READ THIS

Matt 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

THEY WERE TOLD TO. YOU CANNOT READ.
 
And we know Jesus said no one except Him has ever seen the Father. And we know many in the O.T. saw YHWH.

So we know for a fact they did not see the Father but someone else identified as YHWH in the O.T. That can only be the Son- the Great I Am. :)


John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father
Citation needed. Where did Jesus say that no one except himself had seen the Father?
 
Back
Top Bottom