All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Runningman]

Can I have your verse that says Jesus emptied himself of the glory he had with God before his incarnation?

I can provide my verses upon request on Jesus being the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood.

Philippians... what did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

I have probably informed the trinitarians that they interpret the Bible extremely liberally using ideas unique to their organization dozens of times. I haven't seen many who are willing to cease their incessant mangling of Scripture. Just keep pointing it out to them. It's possible to occasionally wake one or of two them up once a year. That's the average rate I've seen at this point.

 

[mikesw]

Can I have your verse that says Jesus emptied himself of the glory he had with God before his incarnation?

I can provide my verses upon request on Jesus being the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood.

Philippians... what did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

You will have to get a study bible so I do not have to teach you from the beginning. Just remember that this is the verse that Runningman always avoids quoting:
John 17:5 (NASB95)
5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[mikesw]

That is not mentioned at all in Philippians 2 or anywhere else in the Bible. You are at odds with Scripture as usual.

Just remember that this is the verse that Runningman loves to avoid quoting:
John 17:5 (NASB95)
5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[Peterlag]

I have probably informed the trinitarians that they interpret the Bible extremely liberally using ideas unique to their organization dozens of times. I haven't seen many who are willing to cease their incessant mangling of Scripture. Just keep pointing it out to them. It's possible to occasionally wake one or of two them up once a year. That's the average rate I've seen at this point.

Something is very wrong somewhere that so many can use so many words, terms, and concepts that are not in the Bible. A guy on another site wrote...

I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

 

[mikesw]

Just Biblical ideas. Don't care about what is "orthodox" in your organization. In Christianity, what Jesus said is the standard so that's what I go by.

Orthodox is bible ideas. Whatever is true, whatever is good, that is what the unitarian avoids.

 

[mikesw]

Something is very wrong somewhere that so many can use so many words, terms, and concepts that are not in the Bible. A guy on another site wrote...

I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

I have to remind you that the stupid person who wrote that only thinks he is smarter than others. Paul and Peter warn you to avoid those people

 

[Runningman]

Something is very wrong somewhere that so many can use so many words, terms, and concepts that are not in the Bible. A guy on another site wrote...

I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

Whoever that guy is sounds like the smartest person who has ever lived.

Today, I asked if any trinitarian was brave enough to call the Father the only true God. One person responded, but dodged the question. Isn't that quite revealing? Wouldn't you want to take the opportunity with the Father as your witness, the One who sees all, giving Him his due glory publicly? I am sure you would Peter, but none of the trinitarians did when I asked.

 

[mikesw]

Whoever that guy is sounds like the smartest person who has ever lived.

Today, I asked if any trinitarian was brave enough to call the Father the only true God. One person responded, but dodged the question. Isn't that quite revealing? Wouldn't you want to take the opportunity with the Father as your witness, the One who sees all, giving Him his due glory publicly? I am sure you would Peter, but none of the trinitarians did when I asked.

You have a low qualification to make him the smartest person who has ever lived in the unitarian realm. Very funny.

 

[Runningman]

Orthodox is bible ideas. Whatever is true, whatever is good, that is what the unitarian avoids.

Glad to see you say "orthodox is bible ideas." That's a good place to start and what every Christian and aspiring Christian should aim for. Do you recognize the Bible as the only source of authority for information about being a Christian?

 

[mikesw]

Glad to see you say "orthodox is bible ideas." That's a good place to start and what every Christian and aspiring Christian should aim for. Do you recognize the Bible as the only source of authority for information about being a Christian?

The very scriptures are why I have to reject the unitarian dogma. The unitarian has to disregard any passage that speaks against his view.

 

[Runningman]

The very scriptures are why I have to reject the unitarian dogma. The unitarian has to disregard any passage that speaks against his view.

This isn't a jab at all and I hope you all don't continue to take it this way. I really want you all to be better. However, as difficult as it is to hear, I don't mind letting you know because you need to be told. The doctrine of the trinity is a textbook example of eisegesis. That's not good.

Why? Because the Trinity is neither explicitly defined or directly stated in any single Biblical passage. Instead, various verses are collected from different books from a variety of unrelated contexts, put together and interpreted to to mean God is three persons when the Bible never actually describes God as three persons to begin with.

So what is eisegesis? Eisegesis is reading one's own ideas into a text instead of drawing meaning from the text. For example, if you start with the idea that "God is triune" (something the Bible doesn't say) and then you search for verses to support that belief, then you are engaging in the dictionary definition of eisegesis.

Exegesis is drawing out the intended meaning from a text based on its context, language, audience, and purpose. This is why we study the Bible so that we can accurately explain what it says, oftentimes not even needing to do anything more than simply quote a verse where the author represented an idea the way they wanted it represented in plain language.

So Unitarians practice exegesis because we take Biblical statements in their plain, direct sense without interpreting what they say. See the difference between what you all do and what Unitarians do?

The Bible clearly declares the Father is the only true God (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6) and we are quoting this directly from the Bible, not a later commentator like you do for your beliefs. The Bible is also consistent about the Father being the only true God (Deut. 6:4, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5)

So the difference between the way you explain your god and the way we explain God is that we actually use the words and language the authors of the Bible used by simply quoting what they said. I hope that helps.

 

[mikesw]

This isn't a jab at all and I hope you all don't continue to take it this way. I really want you all to be better. However, as difficult as it is to hear, I don't mind letting you know because you need to be told. The doctrine of the trinity is a textbook example of eisegesis.

Why? Because the Trinity is neither explicitly defined or directly stated in any single Biblical passage. Instead, various verses are collected from different books from a variety of unrelated contexts, put together and interpreted to to mean God is three persons when the Bible never actually describes God as three persons to begin with.

So what is eisegesis? Eisegesis is reading one's own ideas into a text instead of drawing meaning from the text. For example, if start with the idea that "God is triune" (something the Bible doesn't say) and then you search for verses to support that belief, then you are engaging in the dictionary definition of eisegesis.

Exegesis is drawing out the intended meaning from a text based on its context, language, audience, and purpose. This is why we study the Bible so that we can accurately explain what it says, oftentimes not even needing to do anything more than simply quote a verse where the author represented an idea the way they wanted it represented in plain language.

So Unitarians practice exegesis because we take Biblical statements in their plain, direct sense without interpreting what they say. See the difference between what you all do and what Unitarians do?

The Bible clearly declares the Father is the only true God (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6) and we are quoting this directly from the Bible, not a later commentator. The Bible is also consistent about the Father being the only true God (Deut. 6:4, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5)

So the difference between the way you explain your god and the way we explain God is that we actually use the words and language the authors of the Bible used by simply quoting what they said. I hope that helps.

you just are repeating the same failed stuff over again. it seems when you did not find someone who understood the Triune God that you sought out the arguments against the Trinity instead of trying to understand God. I honestly repeat to you that I would have to scrap too many passages in order to accept the unitarian dogma.

I look at what you do with John 17:3 while disregarding verse 5. This type of pattern happens in other areas too.

I do get snarky once in awhile but it is because the unitarian view does not fit scripture nor has a sufficient argument been made to deny the Triune God.

 

[Runningman]

you just are repeating the same failed stuff over again. it seems when you did not find someone who understood the Triune God that you sought out the arguments against the Trinity instead of trying to understand God.

People argue against the trinity because it's a heresy. It's the same kind of thing you do about other subjects. I'm sure you have talked to many people who said things the Bible doesn't say and you argue with them hoping it will get them back on track, They're doing the same kind of thing you're doing. I think at the end of the day you have your religion and you have the free will to continue that, for now, as does everyone else, but you shouldn't do so at the expense of God, Jesus, and the Scriptures. I think what sets the trinitarians at odds with Christianity is that it attempts to attach itself to Christianity and act like Christianity, but it is not. Trinitarianism is just one of the many heresies that arose early on. All of them are debunked by Scripture plainly stating that the only true God is a single person known as the Father.

 

[mikesw]

People argue against the trinity because it's a heresy. It's the same kind of thing you do about other subjects. I'm sure you have talked to many people who said things the Bible doesn't say and you argue with them hoping it will get them back on track, They're doing the same kind of thing you're doing. I think at the end of the day you have your religion and you have the free will to continue that, for now, as does everyone else, but you shouldn't do so at the expense of God, Jesus, and the Scriptures. I think what sets the trinitarians at odds with Christianity is that it attempts to attach itself to Christianity and act like Christianity, but it is not. Trinitarianism is just one of the many heresies that arose early on. All of them are debunked by Scripture plainly stating that the only true God is a single person known as the Father.

More junk arguments. When you stop providing junk arguments, then people might listen to your view.

 

[Runningman]

More junk arguments. When you stop providing junk arguments, then people might listen to your view.

I'm pretty sure Jesus and the others were not presenting something that they wanted others to argue with when they clearly stated the Father is the only true God in verses like John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6. Ephesians 4:6, Deut. 6:4, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc and neither do I. I was hoping you would see Scripture as something to agree with and not something that is put before you to argue with. You are simply a non-believer I think.

 

[mikesw]

I'm pretty sure Jesus and the others were not presenting something that they wanted others to argue with when they clearly stated the Father is the only true God in verses like John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6. Ephesians 4:6, Deut. 6:4, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc and neither do I. I was hoping you would see Scripture as something to agree with and not something that is put before you to argue with. You are simply a non-believer I think.

I think many Jews also feel I'm a non-believer. LDS people would feel that way too. You just are joining with them.
If you have a better concept than the Trinity, then demonstrate it. Address all the passages that show the divinity of Christ and his pre-existence. Someone should have an argument better than the Trinity argument if you are right.

 

[Runningman]

I think many Jews also feel I'm a non-believer. LDS people would feel that way too. You just are joining with them.
If you have a better concept than the Trinity, then demonstrate it. Address all the passages that show the divinity of Christ and his pre-existence. Someone should have an argument better than the Trinity argument if you are right.

I would be happy to. Question first, why not start with what the Bible says and agree with it before attempting to deconstruct something the Bible doesn't say? Why should we go outside of what the Bible says and then work backward to what the Bible says?

It feels like an exercise in speaking to someone in a different religion. I've evangelized Muslims before and had one in one of my Bible study groups, but initially there is a barrier. They have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity and think that Christians believe that God is a human, which is a stumbling block to them and Jews as well. LDS are somewhat different, but they have different sects. Some are trinitarian, some aren't, and they tend to mingle together sometimes. There is a barrier with trinitarians because you don't know that God isn't a human.

Anyway, why do you want to begin with what the Bible doesn't say?

 

[mikesw]

I would be happy to. Question first, why not start with what the Bible says and agree with it before attempting to deconstruct something the Bible doesn't say? Why should we go outside of what the Bible says and then work backward to what the Bible says?

It feels like an exercise in speaking to someone in a different religion. I've evangelized Muslims before and had one in one of my Bible study groups, but initially there is a barrier. They have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity and think that Christians believe that God is a human, which is a stumbling block to them and Jews as well. LDS are somewhat different, but they have different sects. Some are trinitarian, some aren't, and they tend to mingle together sometimes. There is a barrier with trinitarians because you don't know that God isn't a human.

Anyway, why do you want to begin with what the Bible doesn't say?

you already have shown both hyperliteralist interpretation methods and rejection of key passages. Why continue on that path? You have given me no confidence in your ability to understand scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

Whoever that guy is sounds like the smartest person who has ever lived.

Today, I asked if any trinitarian was brave enough to call the Father the only true God. One person responded, but dodged the question. Isn't that quite revealing? Wouldn't you want to take the opportunity with the Father as your witness, the One who sees all, giving Him his due glory publicly? I am sure you would Peter, but none of the trinitarians did when I asked.

I will tell you who that guy is. The following was posted by him...

"The doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine... it's the product of theological reflection." - The Christian Doctrine of God Trinitarian. E. Brunner, 1949, p. 236.

“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.

“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.

“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.

“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." - Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.

“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Professor M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, p. 12, 20.

“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." - Dictionary of the Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.

“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.

“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.

“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.

“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Professor C. Ryrie, p. 89.

“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” - Christian Doctrine, Professor S. Guthrie, Columbia Theological Seminary, 1994, p. 92.

“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms" - An Outline of Biblical Theology, Professor M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.

“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, 1898.

“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions in the Godhead. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Reverend M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.

The above is from volume one of a two volume paper called...

Sleight Of Mind
by: Steven Blake

 

[Capbook]

Yes... your eisegesis.

Yes, it is just hard to face the truth, seems personal incredulity, Bible Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain defined the word "explained" in John 1:18 in Greek "ἐξηγέομαι exēgeomai," as - to make something fully known by careful explanation or by clear revelation - 'to make fully and clearly known.' 'the only One who is the same as God.
Therefore, when the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel by the word of the LORD, it was Jesus confirmed by the author of John.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Joh 1:18 R1NoG3762 oneG3762 has seenG3708 GodG2316 at anyG4455 timeG4455; R2the onlyG3439 begottenG3439 GodG2316 who is R3in the bosomG2859 of the FatherG3962, R4He has explainedG1834 Him.

NT:1834
ἐξηγέομαι exēgeomai
to make something fully known by careful explanation or by clear revelation - 'to make fully and clearly known.'
'the only One who is the same as God ... has made him fully and clearly known' John 1:18.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)