Runningman
Active Member
You can already be there in a sense. It's not something you should have to wait for.
Ephesians 2
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Ephesians 2
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Why the word "Bible" not one of the definition?Matthew 1:1 --- the 'book' of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David..... 'book' derived from the Greek word biblos from which we get the word 'Bible'. (Mark 12:26; Luke 3:4, 20:42; etc.)
G976
βίβλος biblos
Thayer Definition:
1) a written book, a roll, a scroll
Are there any confirmation that they (devil, angels and other humans) are really God?
I believe contentions are to Jesus only by the Arians.
See NASB, NASB+ and Westcott and Hort's "The New Testament in the Original Greek."
Notice, it is not a translation, it is in Greek.
(NASB) 2Pe 1:4 Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust.
(NASB+) 2Pe 1:4 Through N1theseG3739 He has grantedG1433 to us His preciousG5093 and magnificentG3176 R1promisesG1862, soG2443 thatG2443 by them you may becomeG1096 R2partakersG2844 of the divineG2304 natureG5449, having R3escapedG668 the R4corruptionG5356 that is in R5the worldG2889 onG1722 accountG1722 ofG1722 lustG1939.
(Greek NT Westcott and Hort+) 2Pe 1:4 διG1223 PREP ωνG3739 R-GPF ταG3588 T-NPN τιμιαG5093 A-NPN καιG2532 CONJ μεγισταG3173 A-NPN-S ημινG1473 P-1DP επαγγελματαG1862 N-NPN δεδωρηταιG1433 V-RPI-3S ιναG2443 CONJ διαG1223 PREP τουτωνG3778 D-GPN γενησθεG1096 V-2ADS-2P θειαςG2304 A-GSF κοινωνοιG2844 A-NPM φυσεωςG5449 N-GSF αποφυγοντεςG668 V-2AAP-NPM τηςG3588 T-GSF ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSM κοσμωG2889 N-DSM ενG1722 PREP επιθυμιαG1939 N-DSF φθοραςG5356 N-GSF
The placement were not originals, from animal skins (parchment/vellum), the fibrous papyrus plant, stone, clay tablets, pottery shards (ostraca) and wax tablets. The two most common writing surfaces for biblical texts were papyrus, a durable material made from reeds, and parchment, which was made from prepared animal skins. But the wordings copied were from originals languages, Hebrew and Greek. Not from translations.
I believe I've already quoted John 1:18 from "The New Testament in the Original Greek" by Wescott and Hort.
Notice, It is not a translation, it is in Greek.
But the word "Bible?" What verse?
Peterlag
Active Member
Scrolls and Scrips is the same as Bible. To say the sun or stars or even the lights in the sky is the same as saying the stars. There's no word in the Bible that's the same as Trinity.
Peterlag
Active Member
The verse you are referring to does not fit with any other part of the Bible. If I bring a tree to an automobile factory and ask them to include it in the Engine. They are going to tell me that a tree part does not fit with the rest of the car. You trinity guys are very good at holding on to a verse while ignoring a gazillion other verses on the same subject that says something different. Then you swear your one verse must be there and if I can't see it then I'm rejucting Scripture.
cc: @mikesw
Runningman
Active Member
I mean, you're saying "Jesus is god" without really explaining how he is other than Hebrews 1:8 says of the Son the exact same thing Psalm 45:6 says of Solomon. So how does your argument mean Jesus is actually The God when others are also called the god as well? You have not clearly explained what sets Jesus apart. Vocabulary alone isn't enough. Did he do anything that would somehow indicate he is God? If so, what is it?
You seek for the word "Trinity," same of me of the word "Bible" in the Bible not scrolls or scripts.
Any verse?
I've just quoted literal word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages, and Greek by Westcott and Hort, supported by the oldest manuscripts, the papyrus 66 and papyrus 75. There are various readings but were not described as the original wordings.
Yes, also Arians tried to change Bible wordings just to align with their beliefs, and heavy reliance to paraphrase translations.
A product from the translators thoughts not from the original Bible words.
(NAS95) John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
(NAS95+) John 1:18 R1NoG3762 oneG3762 has seenG3708 GodG2316 at anyG4455 timeG4455; R2the onlyG3439 begottenG3439 GodG2316 who is R3in the bosomG2859 of the FatherG3962, R4He has explainedG1834 Him.
(Greek NT Westcott and Hort+) John 1:18 θεονG2316 N-ASM ουδειςG3762 A-NSM-N εωρακενG3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT πωποτεG4455 ADV μονογενηςG3439 A-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM ωνG1510 V-PAP-NSM ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κολπονG2859 N-ASM τουG3588 T-GSM πατροςG3962 N-GSM εκεινοςG1565 D-NSM εξηγησατοG1834 V-ADI-3S
Victoria
Active Member
Greetings, 101G. Great questions! Sure, I'd be glad to answer them.
Answer to Q #1: Yes, the apostle John tells us all things were made by Him "aka" Jesus Christ. We already know that Jesus Christ is the Word, "aka" He spoke everything into existence, as written in John 1:1-3. Notice however, only in the KJB, it says "by" Him, not "through Him." Modern translations attack His deity here, including the NKJB, which is why I use the authorized KJB only.
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Genesis 1:3
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:6-9
Answer to Q #2: I can see the confusion here
The LORD is speaking of generations, Him being w/ them from the beginning to the last. When you read the entire chapter, you'll notice it's about the LORD giving encouragement to Israel..."Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." Isaiah 14:4 ...
"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend... For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee. Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 41:8; 13-14
Israel is God's son, even His firstborn (i.e. Exodus 4:22). Protecting your child, of course, is what any Father would want to do, right?
Answer to Q #3: It was a joint effort involving the eternal Godhead, & not just God the Father & God the Son (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit in unison), working together, acting as one; collectively. Did you know the following about the Holy Ghost/Spirit?
He's a Comforter: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
He speaks: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13
"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them... So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus." Acts 13:2; 4
He could be grieved: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
He could be quenched: "Quench not the Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 5:19
He could be LIED to: "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." Acts 5:3-4
Lastly, He raised Jesus up as well: "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:10-11
Understanding the Godhead is complex, I know. It takes a lot of studying & allowing God Himself to teach us... not scholars, not men. It's about a personal relationship w/ God. It requires faith (i.e. Romans 10:17), for it's impossible to please Him w/out faith (i.e. Hebrews 11:6). Hope this helps!
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There are many verses that refers Jesus as God, other that John 1:18, John 1:1, 1Tim 3:16 and many others.
Jesus as "God was manifest in the flesh," See it in Greek below;
(KJV) 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(KJV+) 1Ti 3:16 AndG2532 without controversyG3672 greatG3173 isG2076 theG3588 mysteryG3466 of godliness:G2150 GodG2316 was manifestG5319 inG1722 the flesh,G4561 justifiedG1344 inG1722 the Spirit,G4151 seenG3700 of angels,G32 preachedG2784 untoG1722 the Gentiles,G1484 believed onG4100 inG1722 the world,G2889 received upG353 intoG1722 glory.G1391
(Greek NT Byzantine+) 1Ti 3:16 καιG2532 CONJ ομολογουμενωςG3672 ADV μεγαG3173 A-NSN εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S τοG3588 T-NSN τηςG3588 T-GSF ευσεβειαςG2150 N-GSF μυστηριονG3466 N-NSN θεοςG2316 N-NSM εφανερωθηG5319 V-API-3S ενG1722 PREP σαρκιG4561 N-DSF εδικαιωθηG1344 V-API-3S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ωφθηG3708 V-API-3S αγγελοιςG32 N-DPM εκηρυχθηG2784 V-API-3S ενG1722 PREP εθνεσινG1484 N-DPN επιστευθηG4100 V-API-3S ενG1722 PREP κοσμωG2889 N-DSM ανεληφθηG353 V-API-3S ενG1722 PREP δοξηG1391 N-DSF
Arians always argue about Jesus nature, while we believe that;
1. There in only one God,
2. We also believe that Jesus is man,
3. What we need from them is to cite just a single verse that say "Jesus is not God."
4. I believe that would settle everything.
Victoria
Active Member
This should answer those questions:
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/posts/200630/
Victoria
Active Member
I'm not entirely sure you understood what I posted regarding religion. Again, I'm not religious 'nor am I affiliated w/ any denomination, Roman Catholicism included. I'm not an evangelical either, just a Christian sharing her faith w/ others.
I have a personal relationship w/ God. It could only be made possible by reading His Word & His Word alone. This is how He talks to us. When you have a relationship w/ someone, you get to know them. We don't make speculations, create a fantasy of them in our mind, don't claim to know them through a third party "aka" a religion... no, we get to know them directly, & personally.
He hasn't given me a spirit of fear. Instead, it's a spirit of love, & of a sound mind. That doesn't sound so bad, does it? He also is not the author of confusion. I'm not confused as long as I steer clear from religion/traditions of men. That doesn't sound so bad either, does it? The fruit of the Spirit are all positive, not negative.
Like w/ any other you choose to have a relationship w/, you get to know them directly, & personally. Satan is the complete opposite, which by my observation appears to have you fearful as well as confused. God certainly isn't feminine in any way, shape, or form. Jesus Christ was 100% masculine. Jesus Christ is love. As a father would a child, God disciplines. If anything, that's conviction you feel... just as a child in the wrong would feel. God is not a monster. He's a loving Father.
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101G
Active Member
GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for taking your time in answering. second, let's take this one step at a time. you said, "Notice however, only in the KJB, it says "by" Him, not "through Him." Modern translations attack His deity here, including the NKJB, which is why I use the authorized KJB only."
GREAT on using the KJV, but the KJV do use "THROUGH", but just in another word instead, and here's why. according to the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English the term "BY" as in by myself means,
BY, prep.
1. Near; close; as, sit by me; that house stands by a river.
[L. pressus.]
2. Near, in motion; as, to move, go or pass by a church. But it seems, in other phrases, or with a verb in the past time, to signify past, gone beyond. "The procession is gone by;" "the hour is gone by;" "John went by." We now use past as an equivalent word. The procession is gone past. Gone by is in strictness tautology, as now used; but I apprehend by signifies primarily near.
3. Through, or with, denoting the agent, means, instrument or cause; as, "a city is destroyed by fire;" "profit is made by commerce;" "to take by force." This use answers to that of the Latin per, through, denoting a passing, acting, agency, or instrumentality.
NOTE Definition #3. the term "by" as in by himself, (by myself), in Isaiah 44:24 means THROUGH. so the agent or the means, used here is his OWN WORDS, just as the bible and you states, "For he spake, and it was done", because he was ALONE when he CREATED all things........ "BY" his own words. so Isaiah 44:24 can also read, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by/(THROUGH) myself;"
now, knowing this, it is the LORD all caps who made all things by/through himself by ... "SPEAKING" ..... all things into existence.
now, can you agree that the LORD in Isaiah 44:24, (who was "ALONE", and NOTE, ALONE, means, "having no one else present"), is the Word, (who is God), John 1:1 is the same one Person, yes or no?
think before you answer. be blessed, and thanks for responding.
101G.
101G
Active Member
No confusion on God, or 101G part, because the "WITH the LAST" is clearly explained in the Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionary on the term "LAST" in the verse. listen, b. of time, latter or last (according to context) Exodus 4:8; Deuteronomy 24:3; 2 Samuel 19:12; Isaiah 8:23, of God Isaiah 44:6 ("" רִאשׁוֺן) Isaiah 48:12 (do.) compare Isaiah 41:4; in Genl. subsequent (vaguely), ׳יוֺם א = time to come Isaiah 30:8; Proverbs 31:25 (but Nehemiah 8:18 הַיוֺם ׳הָאַ = the last day), ׳(הָ)אַ (הַ)דּוֺר the following Generation Deuteronomy 29:21; Psalm 48:14; Psalm 78:4; Psalm 78:6; Psalm 102:19, (הָ)אַחֲרֹנִים they that come after Job 18:20 (Ges Schl) Ecclesiastes 1:11; Ecclesiastes 4:16, but Isaiah 41:4 the last,Answer to Q #2: I can see the confusion here
"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." Isaiah 14:4 ...
"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend... For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee. Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 41:8; 13-14
Israel is God's son, even His firstborn (i.e. Exodus 4:22). Protecting your child, of course, is what any Father would want to do, right?
this definition can be found at bible hub, https://biblehub.com/hebrew/314.htm
NOW THAT WE HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING, THE "LORD", ALL CAPS IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST THE SAME ONE PERSON. again, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." so, in Isaiah 48:12 the "LORD" all caps is the FIRST and "ALSO" the LAST. for the definition, "Also", means .... having no one else present. READ THAT DEFINITION once more. again is this the same ONE PERSON, the First and the Last, that the first was with the Last, for the term "WITH" indicate the SAME ONE PERSON? yes, or no. you need to now recalibrate, because the LAST is the LORD and not the last Generation....... so, again, 101G ask is this not the same one person, yes or no? .... think/reason before you answer.
101G.
101G
Active Member
First, from question answer on 1 and 2 there is no separate and distinct persons called Father so, and Holy Ghost. it's only "ONE PERSON" who holds all three .... "TITLES". titles are not persons, ok, but persons hold titles.Answer to Q #3: It was a joint effort involving the eternal Godhead, & not just God the Father & God the Son (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit in unison), working together, acting as one; collectively. Did you know the following about the Holy Ghost/Spirit?
He's a Comforter: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
He speaks: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13
"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them... So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus." Acts 13:2; 4
He could be grieved: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
He could be quenched: "Quench not the Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 5:19
He could be LIED to: "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." Acts 5:3-4
Lastly, He raised Jesus up as well: "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:10-11
Understanding the Godhead is complex, I know. It takes a lot of studying & allowing God Himself to teach us... not scholars, not men. It's about a personal relationship w/ God. It requires faith (i.e. Romans 10:17), for it's impossible to please Him w/out faith (i.e. Hebrews 11:6). Hope this helps!
Second, you said, "He's a Comforter: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26"
CORRECT... "HE" ONE PERSON is the Holy Ghost/Spirit, who is the Lord Jesus. LISTEN CAREFULLY. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
this term "advocate" destroys your three person Godhead.... and here's why. for the GREEK TERM, is
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874
WHO is the " intercessor?". let's see by scriptures, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." the Spirit who make intercession for us is the Lord JESUS.
and 101G is sure you KNOW who is the "COMFORTER"..... again,the Lord JESUS. yes, the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit the Comforter....
do you agree, YES or NO? Think before you answer, REASON IT OUT ....... before you answer.
101G.
Runningman
Active Member
That doesn't answer my question at all. Let's try this.
For example, Jesus is not equal to God according to the Bible:
Psalm 8
4What is man that You think of him,
And a son of man that You are concerned about him?
5Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6You have him rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put everything under his feet,
Now how do you come up with Jesus being equal to God?
Runningman
Active Member
The KJV is good, one of my favorites, but it has errors. You mentioned 1 John 5:7 which is one of the errors of the KJV. There are more. It's beneficial to be aware of these things and nod to them without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. The KJV also doesn't contain the "Granville Sharp rule" and contains several instances where Jesus is clearly said to be created or not God. Later translations, especially those produced after the late 18th and 19th century, is when the big changes started to occur that your video talks about. You seem open to understanding this.
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Peterlag
Active Member
In biblical research and in any other reasonable study. If we have 10 clear verses on a subject and 1 verse that does not fit with the other 10 verses on the same subject. We are not to disregard the 10 clear verses and hold on to the 1 verse and then say we have proof that the 1 verse is well documented. Baptizing in the name of the father, son, and spirit is not taught or practiced anywhere in the book of Acts or in any other part of the New Testament. Nobody carried out such a request that you say came from Jesus. Nobody.
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Runningman
Active Member
What you're describing refers to a statistical anomaly known as an outlier. Outliers never inform the majority. There is a reason why the outlier exists. It doesn't mean it's wrong and it doesn't mean the majority is wrong. There is no contradiction to a rule, it's just that outliers are explained by the circumstances.
However, what the Trinitarians are unable to explain is why, if Jesus provided a baptismal formula, why no one followed it. I don't recall any of them having attempted to explain this.
