Runningman
Active Member
Going to need a scriptural citation for "Jesus is God almighty, in the Flesh, as the EQUAL SHARE of his own self".
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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Peterlag
Active Member
The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
P.S. The above means Jack to @mikesw who tells me day in and day out that we present no edivence that Jesus was a man.
cc: @Runningman
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
P.S. The above means Jack to @mikesw who tells me day in and day out that we present no edivence that Jesus was a man.
cc: @Runningman
Victoria
Active Member
Well, I do aim for the seed to fall on good ground, Runningman
The problem isn't so much w/ Christ Jesus being God Almighty, but w/ His eternal power & Godhead... correct? Test away! The bold is for emphasis."For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:20
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:8-9
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6:14-15
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14
"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:16
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus is exalted, anointed, and glorified, but a man nevertheless. This is where they typically play their hypostatic union or dual nature card. Jesus had nothing inherent until he grew into it, was given it, or inherited it. God doesn't need to develop a divine nature, but Jesus did.
Runningman
Active Member
This isn't about Jesus.Well, I do aim for the seed to fall on good ground, Runningman
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:20
Same thing applies to true Christians.
Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Jesus was never called any of these titles in the Bible. Bad translation. Check out the CJB and LXX of that verse.
Already debunked your Jesus is the "King of kings and Lord of lords" argument when the Bible proved he is a prince at the right hand of the King in Acts 5:31. I am sure you agree Jesus is a prince next to God don't you? Also, I might add, no verses in the Bible calls Jesus the "King of kings and Lord of lords" however Jesus is called the "Lord of lords and king of kings." They used a different word order for Jesus to show that the writers believed there is distinction between him and God.
Victoria
Active Member
So the debate is really about the English translations issue. Let's consider some cross-references. The true Word of God should stand out. The bold is for emphasis.
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:6-8
"Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together." Isaiah 48:12-13
"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:17-18
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Revelation 2:8
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." Revelation 1:10-11
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:13
If Jesus Christ isn't God Almighty, how would He then qualify as Lord & Saviour?
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:21-22
"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4
"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" 2 Timothy 1:10
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" Titus 2:13
"For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:11
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." 2 Peter 2:20
Victoria
Active Member
Equal share of His own Self? Could you elaborate?
101G seems to be Oneness Apostolic which is that God sort of bounces around between being the Son, the Father, and the Spirit. It is a form of modalism. I did not quite catch on to that with all the vague statements made by this person.
Victoria
Active Member
What disqualifies the Critical Text alone is that Westcott & Hort weren't saved men:
https://www.bibleready.org/westcott-and-hort
https://www.sociedadrvg.com/en/post/westcott-hort-their-heresies-and-occult-activities
William Tyndale, on the other hand, was.
“Lord, open the king of England’s eyes!” These were the last words of William Tyndale (1494-1536)
on Friday, October 6th, 1536, just before he was strangled and burned at the stake.
Eventually, along came a king, James VI and I, & God answered that prayer!
King of Scotland (1566–1625), England and Ireland (1603–25) James VI and I was King of Scotland as James VI from
24 July 1567 and King of England and Ireland as James I from the union of the Scottish and English crowns on
24 March 1603 until his death in 1625. Though he long attempted to get both countries to adopt a closer
political union, the kingdoms of Scotland and England remained sovereign states, with their own
parliaments, judiciaries, and laws, ruled by James in personal union.
James VI and I, King of England, Scotland, and Ireland, died on 27 March 1625
at Theobalds, and was buried at Westminster Abbey on 7 May 1625.
A traditional rhyme that commemorates the failure of the Gunpowder Plot, a conspiracy
to assassinate King James VI and I in 1605. Learn the lyrics, history and meaning
of this poem associated with Guy Fawkes Night in the UK.
The Fifth of November (Guy Fawkes Night Poem)
Remember, remember!
The fifth of November,
The Gunpowder treason and plot;
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot!
Guy Fawkes and his companions
Did the scheme contrive,
To blow the King and Parliament
All up alive.
Threescore barrels, laid below,
To prove old England's overthrow.
But, by God's providence, him they catch,
With a dark lantern, lighting a match!
A stick and a stake
For King James's sake!
If you won't give me one,
I'll take two,
The better for me,
And the worse for you.
A rope, a rope, to hang the Pope,
A penn'orth of cheese to choke him,
A pint of beer to wash it down,
And a jolly good fire to burn him.
Holloa, boys! holloa, boys! make the bells ring!
Holloa, boys! holloa boys! God save the King!
Hip, hip, hooor-r-r-ray!
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Victoria
Active Member
Oh ic... yet another denomination to educate myself on. I'm presently looking into NAR, but got side-tracked.
Can you answer first this question, is "God" the personal name of the Father?
Do you mean that God is not in divine nature?
I believe Runningman is in human nature, and I can address him as "he." That is if he is male, her when female.
Do that mean that you are a thing?
Yes, we can have that divine nature by God's grace we'll be saved through our faith.
The Bible does not come from the Scripture or the Bible itself.
But you taught doctrines from a "Bible" which is not mentioned in the Bible. Right?
Proving the Trinity;
1. The Father as the Almighty God, yes or no?
2. Jesus is the "only begotten God" in John 1:18 original wording of the oldest manuscripts.
3. The problem is how to explain why the Holy Spirit is God. Yes?
Bible lexicon define "blaspheme" as to speak against God.
Blasphemy against the Almighty God and the "only begotten God" can be forgiven.
But the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.
It proves that the Holy Spirit is a God, distinct and separate person from the Father and the "only begotten God."
That explains the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the nature of being God.
101G
Active Member
GINOLJC, to all.
well Run since you can not understand what 101G is saying, let's make it simple as to who is God the Governor. listen carefully, Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."
the LORD said that he will make the NEW HEAVENS and the NEW EARTH. now this, Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."
who sits on the throne that is the Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the end? answer, Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
it is the Lord who sits on the throne that makes the NEW HEAVEN, and the NEW EARTH. now if the LORD and the Lord is not the same one person then God LIED, (God forbid), or you is correct.... and who is correct? God, so, that means you lied RUN.
READ Isaiah 66:22 and Revelation 21:5 & 6 and get back with 101G. ...... will bw looking for your answer.
101G.
101G
Active Member
sure, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Now, the term "form" in verse 6 is the Greek word,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
definition #2. clearly states that the NATURE of the Lord Jesus is Spirit, because God is a, a, a, a, ONE "Spirit", (Per John 4:24a).
KNOWING THAT, the question come, "how is the Lord Jesus nature is EQUAL ... with.... no equal to, but EQUAL "WITH" God is found in the root of G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n. which is,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). THERE IS OUR ANSWER IN DEFINITION #1. "a portion" what is another word for "Portion?" answer, "SHARE". this can be found at, Word Hippo, under the heading, "A part of a whole" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/portion.html
let back this up in scripture, John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
the word "MEASURE" is the Greek term,
G3358 μέτρον metron (me'-tron) n.
1. a measure (“metre”).
2. (by implication) a limited portion (degree).
{literally or figuratively}
[an apparently primary word]
KJV: measure
There is our ANSWER, "PORTION".... without measure, meaning "EQUAL" just as John 3:34 clearly states, and Philippians 2:6. both are saying the same thing, just using two different words. this is why we must be led by the spirit to understand these things.
if you have any other questions just ask. was that a good enough scriptural citation? all definitions can be reproduce
on the definition above, 101G used the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. and the word "PORTION" synonyms, was given above at word hippo, with the link.
101G.
101G
Active Member
First, thanks for the inquiry, sure see post https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/all-claims-of-the-sons-deity.2185/post-200392
if you have any questions just ask ok. again thanks.
101G.
Peterlag
Active Member
I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said or any other normal person that the Bible does not come from the Scripture or the Bible itself. Nor have I or any other normal person ever taught doctrines from a "Bible" which is not mentioned in the Bible.
Peterlag
Active Member
You are comparing the Old Testament addressed to Isreal with the New Testament and thus you're comparing oranges with apples. What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel. If we do not rightly divide to whom it's addressed—the Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God, we will use one truth to contradict another truth, and we will use what is true for one group in contrast to what is also true for another group.
Peterlag
Active Member
Five verses from the Old Testament...
Israel 44:6,8I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Israel 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:
Runningman
Active Member
"God" is not the Father's name, but the Father is the supreme God, i.e., God Almighty. The Father's name is YHWH. Jesus, the Son of God, is not named YHWH. Jesus is an entirely distinct person from God.
God has the divine nature yes.
Good. So we can have a human and a divine nature like Jesus right? So we aren't God for having the divine nature. Is that a fair conclusion?
Runningman
Active Member
There is a hierarchy under God, but God is always at the top of the chain of command. Do you agree with that? So, did Jesus receive power, authority, etc. from God? Is what Jesus received the same kind of authority "those who overcome" can receive? Scripture says Yes. There aren't many differences between the kind of authority Jesus has and what believers can inherit. If you believe this part, you'll be a step closer to understanding who Jesus actually is and who God actually is.
