Selah
Active member
I believe it was the Lord, but the Lord is also the Father.
John 10:30 (KJV) I and [my] Father are one.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
John 10:30 (KJV) I and [my] Father are one.
Selah
Active member
I believe that Jesus IS the life, not just leads to life. Jesus and the Father are One. Jesus tells us in John 10:30:
“I and [my] Father are one.”
Hear Thomas
John 20:28–29 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”
That would be false
We do not believe there are three Gods
That would be tritheism
We believe there is one God who manifests himself eternally, equally and simultaneously as three persons
@Pancho Frijoles' question has been answered hundreds of times by dozens of people. It gets nauseating to be asked the same old question over and over and over again....
dwight92070
Well-known member
I gave Pancho 26 scriptural evidences that Jesus is God - Exhibits A to Z, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. He challenged me to go through each of the New Testament letters and point out any indications that Jesus is God. I took him up on that, but he didn't last long. He disappeared for several weeks, and when he finally came back, apparently he lost his appetite for such a venture - most likely because he actually saw how much evidence there actually is. I told him I was willing to start our "evidence search" where we left off, but he bowed out. Our faith in Jesus being God is not blind faith. There is gobs of evidence, which really shows how disengenuous they are, because they look at the evidence and then pretend that it really doesn't say what it actually says.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I know you don’t want or intend to believe in three gods.
But Trinity teaches there are three divine persons.
So, my question is what is the difference between three gods and three divine persons?
You say “one God who manifests…” this sounds like you believe that God has one single mind, one single will… it sounds to me like you believe that God is One person, a “He”.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I respectfully disagree with you.
I believe there is overwhelming evidence, starting from Jesus Himself, that Only The Father, Your Father, is God.
Jesús taught that Our Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the Only and True God, and His God.
I invite you to debate with me in a friendly manner on a new thread, with the help of a moderator chosen by you.
My thesis in that thread is that there is the doctrine of the Trinity cannot explain the difference between three gods and three divine persons and, therefore, is is a polytheistic approach to deity.
Last edited:
What have you not understood?
The trinity teaches there is one God
Then you have not understood
101G
Well-known member
Thank you. you are correct the Lord Jesus is the "LORD", title "Father". for he was ALONE, and BY HIMSELF when he made all things. supportive scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" he Jesus, the Father was "ALONE". definition meaning of Alone. having no one else present. and the term "by" according to the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. it means in the third definition,
BY, prep.
1. Near; close; as, sit by me; that house stands by a river.
[L. pressus.]
2. Near, in motion; as, to move, go or pass by a church. But it seems, in other phrases,or with a verb in the past time, to signify past, gone beyond. "The procession is gone by;" "the hour is gone by;" "John went by." We now use past as an equivalent word. The procession is gone past. Gone by is in strictness tautology, as now used; but I apprehend by signifies primarily near.
3. Through, or with, denoting the agent, means, instrument or cause; as, "a city is destroyed by fire;" "profit is made by commerce;" "to take by force." This use answers to that of the Latin per, through, denoting a passing, acting, agency, or instrumentality.
amen brother, 101G commend you on that answer, be blessed.
101G
Selah
Active member
Thank you. I love reading your insightful posts. May the LORD bless you all the days of your life.
ysiC
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
Correct. let see it clearly in Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." here we have "LORD", and "Lord" is this the same person.... or two different persons? let the bible answer itself.
we all are safe in KNOWING who the title LORD is... ok, but the question is .... this is the "Lord" the "LORD?" as said let the bible answer itself. if one would notice, the same "Lord" in verse 5 who is the same "Lord" in verse 1. Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath." it's the same "Lord" in verse one that will sit at the "LORD'S" right. ok good, but how is the "Lord" here is defined? answer, using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, the term "Lord" here is the Hebrew term,
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113
NOTE definition #2.The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel”
and also notice "Lord" here is the [am emphatic form of H113] and H113 is the "Lord" in verse one. Hello. are we getting this? it's the same person. only in verse one in flesh and blood. hence, as David said, "MY Lord".
so brother Dizerner, you're CORRECT. many need to understand that the LORD is the Lord in flesh.
may God bless you.
101G
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Do you mean after Pentecost?
After Pentecost the disciples continued to preach the God of Israel as one person, and Jesus as another person.
This is how they preached:
- The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13)
- For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; (Acts 3:22)
- When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways (Acts 3:26)
- Know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed (Acts 4:10)
- The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. (Acts 5:30)
So, Dizerner, if it was not after Pentecost, at what time they started believing in the Trinity?
Then please help me out to find where are those pages-
Dizerner
Well-known member
Sigh. You don't even know when they received the Holy Spirit, yet you come here acting like a Bible expert when you don't know basic things.
You just Google and ChatGPT things.
Have you ever ONE time read through the ENTIRE Bible?
And why do you leave out Peter's words here:
You killed the Author of Life. (Acts 3:15)
So if I link the dozens of times I replied to you with lengthy replies what happens?
You apologize and say how wrong you were?
I very much doubt that.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I can go through this whole list and would not find one verse that shows Jesus as God. The first two verses do not prove Jesus is God. They are...All Claims of The Son's Deity
In about 45% of the New Testament, 19 witnesses make 50 claims of The Son's Deity in 186 iterations, including 54 iterations by Jesus Himself.
These claims are organized in three ways on separate Pages:
There are far more claims of The Son's deity than I was led to believe by conventional minimalization; but hundreds were not necessary. In God-breathed Scripture, only one of them was necessary to state the truth.
These claims are a more complete portrait of what the apostle John meant when he wrote, "The one who believes in The Son has eternal life. The one who rejects The Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him" [John 3:36]. Rejecting The Son's deity is in fact rejecting The Son, which Jesus warns explicitly [John 8:24].
BY CATEGORY
Actions of Yahweh [22]
Answers prayer ⇒ [3x] John 14:13; 14:14; 16:26.
Draws all people to Himself ⇒ [1x] John 12:32.
Eliminates death itself ⇒ [2x] 1 Cor 15:26; 2 Tim 1:10.
Forgives sin ⇒ [1x] Mark 2:5.
Fulfills all things (or: fills the universe) ⇒ [1x] Eph 4:10.
Gives life ⇒ [3x] John 5:21; 21:22; 1 Cor 15:45.
Influences human action (despite no longer being on Earth)
⇒ [7x] 1 Cor 1:8a; 11:32; 16:7; 1 Tim 1:12; 1:16b; 2 Tim 1:12c; Jude 1:24.
Nullified [the power of] The Law ⇒ [1x] Eph 2:15.
Purifies for Himself an elect people (λαός περιούσιος) ⇒ [1x] Titus 2:14.
Resurrects Himself from the dead ⇒ [1x] John 2:19.
Transforms all believers’ bodies into His own likeness ⇒ [1x] Phil 3:21.
Characteristics of Yahweh [30]
Eternal ⇒ [6x] John 1:1a; 1:2; 17:5b; 17:24; 1 John 1:1; 1:2.
Immutable ⇒ [2x] 2 Tim 2:13c; Heb 13:8.
Impassible ⇒ [2x] Phil 2:7a; 2:7b.
Inscrutable ⇒ [2x] Matt 11:27a; John 8:19b.
Sinless ⇒ [2x] John 8:46; 1 John 3:5.
Omniscient (accounting for kenosis and difference in role)
⇒ [4x] John 2:24; 2:25; 16:30a; 21:17.
Otherworldly ⇒ [12x] John 5:34; 6:46; 8:23; 8:42; 13:3; 15:5; 16:28; 16:30c; Rom 8:3;
1 Cor 15:47; Eph 4:9; 1 Tim 1:15.
Conflations, Other [27]
Ascriptions ⇒ [2x]
Luke 1:76 (The Most High); Rom 14:9 (Lord of the Living and the Dead).
Assertions ⇒ [4x]
John 8:12 (I am The Light of the World).
John 11:25 (I am The Ressurection and The Life).
John 14:6 (I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life).
John 16:33 (I have conquered the World).
Born of ⇒ [1x] 1 John 3:1.
Denying Him results in Hell ⇒ [1x] 2 Tim 2:12.
Equal Authority and Ownership to The Father ⇒ [2x] John 16:15; 17:10.
Equal Possessor of God’s glory, which Yahweh shares with no one [« Isa 42:8]
⇒ [1x] John 17:5a.
Knowing The Son equals knowing The Father ⇒ [4x] Matt 11:27b; John 8:19c; 14:7; 14:8.
Knowing equals Eternal Life ⇒ [1x] John 17:3.
One with The Father and/or The Spirit ontologically
⇒ [8x] John 10:30; 10:38; 14:10; 14:11; 14:23; 17:11; 17:21: 17:22.
Seeing The Son equals seeing The Father ⇒ [1x] John 14:9.
Working of The Son equated to working of The Father ⇒ [2x] John 5:17; 5:19.
Devotion due to Yahweh [21]
Devotional Belief in (not mundane belief, confidence, or trust)
⇒ [9x] John 1:7; 1:12; 14:1; Eph 1:13; 1:15; Col 1:4; 1 Tim 1:16c; 2 Tim 1:12b; Phlm 1:5.
of Equal Honor to The Father ⇒ [1x] John 5:23.
Object of the Highest Love, due only to the God of The Shema
⇒ [4x] Matt 10:37; Luke 14:26; 1 Cor 16:22; Eph 6:24.
United to ⇒ [3x] Rom 7:4; 1 Cor 6:17; Eph 5:32.
Worship of ⇒ [4x] Eph 5:19; Rev 5:13; Rev 22:3; 22:5a-b.
Direct Equation [69]
Called "Lord" in the sense of "Yahweh" ⇒ [22x]
Luke 1:16; 1:17; 1:43; 1:68; 1:76; John 20:28b; Acts 9:17; 19:5; 21:13; 21:14;
Rom 10:9; 10:12; 1 Cor 1:2; 1:8b; 8:6c; 12:3; Eph 4:5; Phil 2:11b; 3:20; Jude 1:4; 1:14;
Rev 22:5c
Called "God" ⇒ [17x]
Luke 1:16; 1:68; John 1:1c; 1:18; 20:28c; Rom 9:5; 14:10; 14:12; 1 Cor 5:13; 1 Tim 3:15-16; Titus 1:3; 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2 Pet 1:1; 1 John 5:20; 2 John 1:9; Jude 1:25.
Equal or Identical to God ⇒ [3x] Phil 2:6a; 2:6b; Heb 1:3b.
Monogenic Sonship which denotes the same essence
⇒ [3x] John 3:16; 3:18; 1 John 4:9.
Called The Kabod YHWH / The Glory of God, who is Yahweh
⇒ [2x] Heb 1:3a; Rev 21:23c.
Called the “I AM” or “I Am He,” who is Yahweh
⇒ [3x] John 8:24 (by cataphora); 8:28 (ibid.); 8:58.
Direct OT Citation or Allusion substituting for Yahweh or The Kabod YHWH [19]
John 1:23 (Isa 40:3); John 3:13 (Prov 30:4); Rom 9:32 (Isa 8:13-14; 28:16);
Rom 10:13 (Joel 2:32); Rom 14:11 (Isa 45:23); 1 Cor 1:31 (Jer 9:24[23]);
1 Cor 2:16 (Isa 40:13); 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Cor 10:9; Eph 4:8 (Isa 68:19-21[Eng. 18-20]);
Eph 5:14a-b (Isa 26:19-20); Eph 5:14c (Isa 60:1-2); Phil 2:10-11a (Isa 45:23-24);
2 Tim 2:19 (Num 16:5); 2 Tim 4:14 (Ps 28:4); Jude 1:5b (e.g., Exod 13:9);
Jude 1:5c (Num 1:35); Rev 21:23b (Isa 60:19-20); Rev 22:5a-b (Isa 60:19-20).
Offices of Yahweh [17]
Apportioner to each human his lot in life ⇒ [2x] 1 Cor 7:17; Eph 4:11.
Creator ⇒ [6x] John 1:3; 1:10; 1:11; 1 Cor 8:6d; Col 3:10 (of the New Man, the born-again
aspect); Heb 1:2c.
Judge, Eschatological/Cosmic ⇒ [3x] John 12:31; 2 Tim 4:1; 4:8.
King of Heaven ⇒ [3x] 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 6:9; Rev 22:5d.
Rewarder of each human [« Prov 24:12, exclusive domain of YHWH]
⇒ [2x] Matt 16:27; Rom 2:6.
Shepherd, Only [1]
⇒ John 10:14-16 (“The Good Shepherd” and “One Shepherd” for His “own”).
All Claims of The Son's Deity, by Category | The Triunity of God
www.thetriunityofgod.com
J.
John 14:13-14
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Jesus has been given the authority in both heaven and earth. And so to ask by his authority is how we get any prayer answered.
Part of Matthew 28:18 says...
All power [delegated authority, implies the ability to make power felt. E.W. Bullinger] is given unto Christ in heaven and in earth.
Peterlag
Well-known member
It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Calm down, my bother. We are all permanent learners.
Pentecost was a moment of special outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit had been with the disciples much before, guiding them.
One of the moments in which they receive the Holy Spirit is described in John 20:22. That happened before Pentecost.
Yes.
I study the Bible with great and sincere interest since I was 7-year-old, inspired by a mother who taught me that God loved and will always loved people from all religions. She’s now almost 87, and as she approaches the end of his earthly life, the Holy Spirit keeps making her heart shine. I am so blessed to have read the first page of the Bible AFTER I had first learned the basics of good and evil from her!
Do you think that the apostles were teaching the Israelites that they had killed the God of their Ancestors? Is this what Israelites were supposed to understand…. that they had killed the God who raised Himself from the dead? That they had killed the God who was a servant of Himself?
Jesus, as giver of eternal life, or he who leads to eternal life, is called in most ( but not all) translations “author of life”. In the New King James Version, Prince of Life.
Jews had killed physically He who gave life spiritually. That’s the direct and unavoidable meaning of Acts 3:15.
It is absurd to think that Peter was telling the Israelites they had killed the Creator, the God of their Ancestors. Let’s read the passage:
“The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.” (New King James Version)
Going back to my question:
It is clear that the apostles didn’t start believing in the Trinity after Pentecost.
Then, when did they start believing in it?
I will read those dozen replies and come back to you with an honest comment, quoting your posts.
What is the difference between three gods and three divine persons?
Johann
Well-known member
You have a different understanding of Messiah.
Yochanan 1:14 (OJB)
"And the Dvar Hashem became basar and made His mishkan among us [YESHAYAH 7:14; 8:8,10] and we gazed upon His kavod, the kavod of the Ben Yachid from Elohim HaAv, full of Chesed v’Emes."
➤ This verse affirms that the Dvar Hashem—already declared to be Elohim in 1:1—became flesh, implying full incarnation and thus the identity of Yeshua as Elohim. Cross-reference: +Isaiah 9:6(5), El Gibbor.
2. Yochanan 8:58 (OJB)
"Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Omein, omein, I say to you, before Avraham came to be, Ani Hu."
➤ “Ani Hu” echoes Exodus 3:14 (Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh) and Isaiah 43:10-11, where Hashem uses Ani Hu to declare His exclusive deity. Yeshua applies this Name to Himself, a clear claim to being Hashem.
3. Yochanan 20:28 (OJB)
"T’oma in reply said to him, Adoni and Elohai!"
➤ Thomas calls Yeshua both Lord and God (Adoni v’Elohai) without rebuke, affirming Yeshua’s deity explicitly.
4. Colossians 2:9 (OJB)
"Because in him kol melo Elohut (all the fullness of Deity) finds its bodily mishkan [SHECHINAH]."
➤ The fullness of Elohut (Deity) dwells in bodily form in Yeshua, identifying Him as the embodied Shechinah.
5. Titus 2:13 (OJB)
"Looking for the Ashreinu Tikvah HaMevorachet and the Hisgalus haKavod of Eloheinu and Moshieinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach Yehoshua."
➤ The same person is called both Eloheinu (our God) and Moshieinu (our Savior)—a grammatical construct in Greek and OJB that denotes unity, not two persons.
6. Ivrim (Hebrews) 1:8 (OJB)
"But of the Ben, he says, Kisacha (Your throne), O Elohim, is olam va’ed..."
➤ The Father calls the Son "O Elohim", confirming the full divinity of Ben HaElohim.
7. Ivrim 1:3 (OJB)
"Who being the Shechinah of the kavod and the exact demut (resemblance) of Hashem’s essential being..."
➤ Yeshua is the radiance of God’s glory and exact representation of His essence (hupostasis), indicating ontological unity with Elohim.
8. Philippians 2:6 (OJB)
"Who, though existing in the demut of the mode of being of Elohim, did not regard being equal with Elohim something to be seized..."
➤ The Greek μορφῇ Θεοῦ (morphē Theou) rendered as demut...Elohim in the OJB, speaks of Yeshua's essential divine nature, not merely external likeness.
9. Revelation 1:8 (OJB)
"Ani Hu the Alef and the Tav, says Adonoi Hashem, HaElohim, the One Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Shaddai."
➤ In the context of Revelation 1, this is Yeshua speaking (see Rev 1:17-18), calling Himself Hashem, Elohim, and Shaddai—titles only used for El Elyon.
10. Revelation 22:13 (OJB)
"Ani Hu the Alef and the Tav, the Rishon and the Acharon, the Reshit and the Ketz."
➤ These are attributes ascribed to Hashem in Yesha’yahu 44:6 and 48:12, yet spoken here by Yeshua, again affirming His eternal nature and co-identity with Hashem.
From the Bereshis declaration of the Dvar as Elohim to His visible, glorified identity as HaShaddai, these OJB-rendered verses construct a mosaic of Messianic Deity, aligning Hebraic expressions with the apostolic witness. Not merely an exalted agent or emissary, Yehoshua is declared to be Hashem Himself made manifest—the visible image of the invisible Elohim (Col. 1:15).
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
If you can't "see" this--
All verses from the OJB bible and try the LXX.
J.
Peterlag
Well-known member
One verse at a time with me. Here's how I see Thomas...
“My Lord and my God.” A very likely way to understand John 20:28 is that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.
We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.
In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.
Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.
