All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Verily]

One verse at a time with me. Here's how I see Thomas...

“My Lord and my God.” A very likely way to understand John 20:28 is that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

Peace to you in Christ Jesus Peterlag, the latest forum newby here. I couldnt find a place to jump in somewhere, till I read your post. I have been curious if there might be another way to look at what Thomas said there (only because I never felt convinced it was the nail in the coffin for the argument that its often used for.

And backing up a little to where Jesus did not allow himself to be touched before he ascended to His God and our God, as he tells her

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he breathed on them (John 20:22) and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

At this time Jesus invites them to touch him, as it shows Thomas doing just that (who was not with them when Jesus came eight days earlier)

When Jesus comes again,

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Thomas seeing is believing

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus had said a few chapters earlier

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone

A little later Philip then said to Jesus

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

But Jesus asks Philip

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

So when Jesus appears to Thomas

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Wouldn't it agree with what Paul also tells us when he says,

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

But even that aside,

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Emphasis on WE here

"WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him", or, "My Lord and my God" (John 14:23)

Even as John would later write,

"Truly our fellowship is with the Father, AND with his Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3)

"I in them, AND thou in me"

Which is how I might catch it is Thomas acknowledging both the Father and the Son, since even Jesus said, "He that sent me is WITH me" John 8:29

 

[Peterlag]

Peace to you in Christ Jesus Peterlag, the latest forum newby here. I couldnt find a place to jump in somewhere, till I read your post. I have been curious if there might be another way to look at what Thomas said there (only because I never felt convinced it was the nail in the coffin for the argument that its often used for.

And backing up a little to where Jesus did not allow himself to be touched before he ascended to His God and our God, as he tells her

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he breathed on them (John 20:22) and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

At this time Jesus invites them to touch him, as it shows Thomas doing just that (who was not with them when Jesus came eight days earlier)

When Jesus comes again,

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Thomas seeing is believing

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus had said a few chapters earlier

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone

A little later Philip then said to Jesus

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

But Jesus asks Philip

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

So when Jesus appears to Thomas

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Wouldn't it agree with what Paul also tells us when he says,

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

But even that aside,

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Emphasis on WE here

"WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him", or, "My Lord and my God" (John 14:23)

Even as John would later write,

"Truly our fellowship is with the Father, AND with his Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3)

"I in them, AND thou in me"

Which is how I might catch it is Thomas acknowledging both the Father and the Son, since even Jesus said, "He that sent me is WITH me" John 8:29

More data on this subject from my very own website... https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

 

[Verily]

More data on this subject from my very own website... https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

Anything that can be copy pasted rather than clicked on?

I have more data too but I copy paste my data

 

[Peterlag]

Anything that can be copy pasted rather than clicked on?

I have more data too but I copy paste my data

I have two websites. There's nothing to buy since I'm not selling anything. The sites are all mine and they will not hurt you. Here's my other site on
an in-depth look at how to walk by the spirit... https://walking-by-the-spirit.com

 

[Verily]

I have two websites. There's nothing to buy since I'm not selling anything. The sites are all mine and they will not hurt you. Here's my other site on
an in-depth look at how to walk by the spirit... https://walking-by-the-spirit.com

Thanks, I just dont like clicking on unfamilar links Peterlag.

 

[Peterlag]

Thanks, I just dont like clicking on unfamilar links Peterlag.

Yeah but it's not unfamiliar. It's mine.

 

[Verily]

Yeah but it's not unfamiliar. It's mine.

But I do not know you, I just started posting here.

How about I just say, "Thank you for the link, but no thank you"?

Can you handle that a little better?

 

[101G]

More data on this subject from my very own website... https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

at the site you suggested to read,
Appendix D
Data On The Trinity

it said, "Son of God does not mean God the Son" ... Hmmmmm.

The Bible teaches there is one God, the Father, and one Messiah and Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the divinely conceived Son of God. Jesus Christ is the fully human “Son of God” and not “God the Son.” THIS IS WHAT YOUR SITE SAID.

the term "divinely" means, by the power of God or a god. question, "was not this power of God, the Holy Spirit? was it not the "Holy Spirit" who conceived the Son of God in Mary's womb? scripture, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

by definition, is not the conceiver, (here the Son of God), of a child, the .... "Father?" so, are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the Father? yes or no.

101G.

 

[Dizerner]

Interesting recent debate:

 

[Peterlag]

at the site you suggested to read,
Appendix D
Data On The Trinity

it said, "Son of God does not mean God the Son" ... Hmmmmm.

The Bible teaches there is one God, the Father, and one Messiah and Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the divinely conceived Son of God. Jesus Christ is the fully human “Son of God” and not “God the Son.” THIS IS WHAT YOUR SITE SAID.

the term "divinely" means, by the power of God or a god. question, "was not this power of God, the Holy Spirit? was it not the "Holy Spirit" who conceived the Son of God in Mary's womb? scripture, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

by definition, is not the conceiver, (here the Son of God), of a child, the .... "Father?" so, are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the Father? yes or no.

101G.

I see you clicked on the link I sent @Verily and you lived. Your computer is still healthy and everything. Now back to your question. No the Holy Spirit is not the Father. The word Father is not a living creature. It's a name.