All Claims of The Son's Deity

[TomL]

I have not ignored Mark. I already commented on it.
Have you ignored Mark?

I explained that the passage in Mark proves that Jesus and the scribes of his time AGREED on the concept of God.
So, if you want to know who Jesus thinks is God, go to the synagogue which is closest to your neighborhood, and ask the rabbi.

They showed kurios was a substitute for Jehovah

A claim you had denied

And Rom 10:9-13 shows salvation is had by calling on the lord Christ when the old testament says we are saved by calling on Jehovah

Finally you addressed nothing of the Old Testament where both the angel of Jehovah and the word of Jehovah are called Jehovah.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Finally you addressed nothing of the Old Testament where both the angel of Jehovah and the word of Jehovah are called Jehovah.

They were called Jehovah because, for all practical terms, people thought they were speaking with Jehovah.
Jehovah can't be seen or heard or touched.
But when you see, hear and touch a Messenger from Jehovah, you can say "I saw, heard and touched Jehovah".
That is what a Manifestation of God is about.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

They showed kurios was a substitute for Jehovah

No. The translators chose Kurios to render Adonai with all its advantages and disadvantages.

Jesus wasn't taking the place of the God of Israel.
Do you believe that Jesus was telling the scribe that He was replacing YHWH? If so, did the scribe undertsand that? Remember that the scribe approved Jesus answer and Jesus approved the scribe's answer.

Let me insist: test your theory with a rabbi.

 

[TomL]

No. The translators chose Kurios to render Adonai with all its advantages and disadvantages.

Jesus wasn't taking the place of the God of Israel.
Do you believe that Jesus was telling the scribe that He was replacing YHWH? If so, did the scribe undertsand that? Remember that the scribe approved Jesus answer and Jesus approved the scribe's answer.

Let me insist: test your theory with a rabbi.

Sorry the Old Testament uses Jehovah

Deuteronomy 6:4 (UASV) — 4 “Hear, O Israel! Jehovah our God is one Jehovah!

or Yahweh

Deuteronomy 6:4 (LEB) — 4 “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique.

 

[Dizerner]

There can be no doubt Lord was used in the place of YHWH.

Not every instance of Lord is YHWH obviously but some most assuredly are.

 

[TomL]

They were called Jehovah because, for all practical terms, people thought they were speaking with Jehovah.
Jehovah can't be seen or heard or touched.
But when you see, hear and touch a Messenger from Jehovah, you can say "I saw, heard and touched Jehovah".
That is what a Manifestation of God is about.

Sorry scripture calls the Messenger and the word Jehovah

The messenger calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Exodus 23:20–21 (LEB) — 20 “ ‘Look, I am about to send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21 Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, because he will not forgive your transgression, for my name is in him.

Jehovah himself says his name is in

He is called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and scripture calls him Yahweh (Jehovah)

Exodus 3:2–6 (LEB) — 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God.
Exodus 3:2–7 (UASV) — 2 The angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. 7 And Jehovah said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people that are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sufferings.

 

[Fred]

Are you aware, Fred, that when you pray to Jesus, He will be presenting your case to God?

You dodged the evidence in post 52.

Get back to me when you don't want t hide anymore.

 

[TomL]

Are you aware, Fred, that when you pray to Jesus, He will be presenting your case to God?

God does not need to negotiate or persuade another being to do something. A Mediator cannot be God.
God does not need to ask another being to forgive the Roman soldiers at the cross. A Mediator cannot be God.

Being a proper recipient of prayer to turn it to God is not just a component, but an ESSENTIAL COMPONENT of being a Mediator.

"For there is one God
and one mediator between God and mankind,
the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

So, let's examine how Fred's prayers work by examining this verse:

1. There is one personal being Paul calls "God"
2. There is one personal being calls "the man Christ Jesus"
3. There is one personal being, a man, who I will call "Fred"
4. The man Christ Jesus mediates between Fred and God.
5. "Mediates", means that the Mediator takes Fred's case, thoughts, wishes, fears, hopes, needs, prayers, to God.

CONCLUSION: Every time you accept Christ to take your prayer to God and mediate between you and God, you accept that Christ is not God.

Faulty conclusion

Christ is both man and God

John 1:1–18 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of humanity. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. 6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This one came for a witness, in order that he could testify about the light, so that all would believe through him. 8 That one was not the light, but came in order that he could testify about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to every person, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him, and the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to his own things, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about him and cried out, saying, “This one was he about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me is ahead of me, because he existed before me.’ ” 16 For from his fullness we have all received, and grace after grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Faulty conclusion

Christ is both man and God

Under a Greek polytheistic mindset, that is possible. Let’s remember Hércules, Perseus, Achilles, Aeneas, Aesclepius, Castor and Pollux.
There was no problem in a person being half divine and half human. This is because Theós was a category, a speciies, who could proceeare with humans demigods, such as horses and donkeys can procereate mules.

Under Jewish monotheism, however, that’s impossible.
In Jewish, monotheism God is not a category, or a species or class, but a Personal Being: a single mind, a single will, One and only one of his kind.

So, when you say “Christ is both man and God” you’re formulating a concept which was alien to Mary, Joseph, Jesús, his 12 apostles, the Pharisees (including Nicodemus and Paul), the Saducees, the Esenians, the priests, the teachers of the Law, the musicians of the Temple, the tax colectors, the housewives, the shepherds and peasants, the fishers, the potters, the tailors, the young rich, Lazarus, The Seventy, the deacons, the prostitutes, and the audiences of Peter in his first speeches after Pentecost.

That’s why I insist: Do you wanna learn How Jesus, his disciples and his listeners thought about the Oneness of God? Talk to a rabbi

 

[Dizerner]

Peter said they killed the Author of Life.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry the Old Testament uses Jehovah

I agree, TomL.

Peter said they killed the Author of Life.

So, do you think that Peter was telling his countrymen that they have killed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Is this was Peter meant? Is this what the Jews understood?

Certainly not, as
1) this Peter was Jew, his audience was a Jew, and
2) Peter mentions in the same verse that the God of Abraham, the “God of our Ancestors”, was the one raising Jesus from the dead… and is the God of A raham who has Jesus as His servant.

So, in what sense was Jesus, the Son and Servant of the God of Israel, the “author of life”?
Jesus Himself explains it: He gives eternal life and abundant life. His words are spirit and life.
This life is not intrinsic to Jesus. It is the life of God through his words, since Jesus spoke only what God asked him to speak.

Some translations render the verse like this: “You killed the Prince of Life.” (Notably King James Version) Or “You killed the one who leads to life” or “You kill the one who gives life”
This is because the Geeek word “Archegos” also conveys the meaning of somebody who champions life, who leads to life.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Before Jesus was virgin born as "GOD manifested in the Flesh", He was "the Word"... and "the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us"..

So, who is JESUS "the WORD"......pre-incarnate?

He is this one........

"Let US.... make man... in OUR image".

See the "us & our"?

This is Father God... and "the Word became flesh" as "God manifested in the Flesh".. Is Jesus

"US & Our".. is God and Jesus the Pre-incarnate "Word".

They are "One" yet they are 2.

Lol we most often disagree on doctrine but " spot on. " Anyone who denies Jesus as God gets ignored by myself and will also be denied before the throne !

Matthew 10 :
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[TomL]

I agree, TomL.

So you agree Kurios (lord) became the substitute for Jehovah

The Old Testament uses Jehovah

Deuteronomy 6:4 (UASV) — 4 “Hear, O Israel! Jehovah our God is one Jehovah!

or Yahweh

Deuteronomy 6:4 (LEB) — 4 “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique.

The New Testament Lord (Kurios)


Mark 12:29 (LEB) — 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

And that Salvation is had by proclaiming Jesus is Lord (Kurios)

Romans 10:9–13 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[TomL]

Under a Greek polytheistic mindset, that is possible. Let’s remember Hércules, Perseus, Achilles, Aeneas, Aesclepius, Castor and Pollux.
There was no problem in a person being half divine and half human. This is because Theós was a category, a speciies, who could proceeare with humans demigods, such as horses and donkeys can procereate mules.

Under Jewish monotheism, however, that’s impossible.
In Jewish, monotheism God is not a category, or a species or class, but a Personal Being: a single mind, a single will, One and only one of his kind.

So, when you say “Christ is both man and God” you’re formulating a concept which was alien to Mary, Joseph, Jesús, his 12 apostles, the Pharisees (including Nicodemus and Paul), the Saducees, the Esenians, the priests, the teachers of the Law, the musicians of the Temple, the tax colectors, the housewives, the shepherds and peasants, the fishers, the potters, the tailors, the young rich, Lazarus, The Seventy, the deacons, the prostitutes, and the audiences of Peter in his first speeches after Pentecost.

That’s why I insist: Do you wanna learn How Jesus, his disciples and his listeners thought about the Oneness of God? Talk to a rabbi

Sorry no, Under a Christian Jewish mindset Christ is both man and God

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

And Christians are not polytheists

 

[TomL]

Are you aware, Fred, that when you pray to Jesus, He will be presenting your case to God?

Not Fred but aware Jesus is God

And that he will do what is asked

John 14:13–14 (LEB) — 13 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

 

[Selah]

I agree, TomL.


So, do you think that Peter was telling his countrymen that they have killed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Is this was Peter meant? Is this what the Jews understood?

Certainly not, as
1) this Peter was Jew, his audience was a Jew, and
2) Peter mentions in the same verse that the God of Abraham, the “God of our Ancestors”, was the one raising Jesus from the dead… and is the God of A raham who has Jesus as His servant.

So, in what sense was Jesus, the Son and Servant of the God of Israel, the “author of life”?
Jesus Himself explains it: He gives eternal life and abundant life. His words are spirit and life.
This life is not intrinsic to Jesus. It is the life of God through his words, since Jesus spoke only what God asked him to speak.

Some translations render the verse like this: “You killed the Prince of Life.” (Notably King James Version) Or “You killed the one who leads to life” or “You kill the one who gives life”
This is because the Geeek word “Archegos” also conveys the meaning of somebody who champions life, who leads to life.

What you’ve written above is false; it is not true. You are deceived and stumbling around in the dark. The truth is the Word of God. Have you read it, Pancho? Have you studied it? …because Jesus, the Word of God has foretold us all things.
John 1:1-5 (KJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[101G]

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Greeting, the all things that was made was it the "LORD", or the "Lord who made them?".

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What you’ve written above is false; it is not true. You are deceived and stumbling around in the dark. The truth is the Word of God. Have you read it, Pancho? Have you studied it? …because Jesus, the Word of God has foretold us all things.

Hi Selah: Could you please point out to what from what I wrote in the post is false?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry no, Under a Christian Jewish mindset Christ is both man and God

At what point in time, in your opinion, the apostles started to believe that Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, rather than the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

And Christians are not polytheists

You, as individuals, are not. I will always defend you as monotheists.
You submit your lives to a Single Mind. You worship and love a God with a Single Mind, not with three minds.

It is the theological stance which is polytheistic, because it makes no difference between "three divine persons" and "three gods".
Nobody in the Forum has been able to explain what is the difference.
Would you give it a try?

 

[Dizerner]

At what point in time, in your opinion, the apostles started to believe that Jesus was the God

I would say when they received the Holy Spirit.

Nobody in the Forum has been able to explain what is the difference.

Oh, stop your blubbering. I've written pages and pages on it.