Peterlag
Well-known member
Yes you can pray to God or Jesus Christ who is the son and second in commend.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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Peterlag
Well-known member
Matthew 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100%man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.
For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.
Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth. The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitarians are trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Bald assertion, begging the question. Also please distinguish between Full and Semi-Kenosis as they are not the same teaching.
The Word became flesh, being in the form of God he became in the form of a servant, being rich he was made poor.
Lol, those orthodox that you think literally get everything about God wrong, you now quote as an authority when it suits you? Terrific.
You have not established that, and you are not an authority. Sorry.
Peterlag
Well-known member
What I am an authority on is that there is no trinity. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
All you folks ever put in front of me are bits and pieces of words and half verses that are scattered all over the Bible. Also there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...
Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.
The Epistles would have writings like...
Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.
And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
Oh unlike many others who deny the deity of Christ you do affirm prayer can be made to Christ.
First, it is not Matthew 5:23. It is John 5:23.
Second, that doesn't answer the question I asked. A "yes" or "no" will suffice. I know that it is really difficult for you to be clear on such things, but give it a shot.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Absolutely... it's his church. The body of Christ.
Ok but
Prayer should be directed solely to God, as it is an act of religious worship due only to Him. It emphasizes that God alone can search hearts, hear requests, grant forgiveness, and fulfill desires, making Him the only appropriate object of prayer and worship.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Do you have a verse to go along with that?
The statement
Prayer should be directed solely to God, as it is an act of religious worship due only to Him. It emphasizes that God alone can search hearts, hear requests, grant forgiveness, and fulfill desires, making Him the only appropriate object of prayer and worship.
Cannot be obtained from a single verse but from a conglomerate of a number of verses.
Who alone can search the heart?
Who alone can grant ultimate forgiveness?
Who alone is capable of hearing the prayers of all?
Peterlag
Well-known member
Colossians 1:2
...Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
You can't pray to him but you have grace and peace from him?
Peterlag
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
I never argued you cannot pray to Jesus.
My point is prayer to Jesus as seen in the bible is a further indication of the deity of Christ
John chapter 17
John 17:5 (NASB95) — 5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
within the context of John refutes your doctrine.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The John 17:5 verse has been used to prove that Jesus is God because of the phrase “that I had with you before the world was.” There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge “in the mind of God”? Both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” no one tries to prove we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” meaning in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.
