Peterlag
Well-known member
A few things come to mind when considering this.
1.) The son of God cannot forgive sins.
1.) The son of God cannot be prayed to.
2.) The son of God cannot be worshiped.
And zero Scripture on all of it.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
1.) The son of God cannot forgive sins.
1.) The son of God cannot be prayed to.
2.) The son of God cannot be worshiped.
And zero Scripture on all of it.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Why would I be desperate? I have no skin in the game. It's not my Bible nor is Jesus my servant or employee. It's not me you're bickering with. It's them.
I spoke about you to a friend on the phone yesterday. I told him there's folks like you who believe the trinity is everywhere in the Bible. I went on to tell him of the many verses that you listed proving the trinity. That in your mind it's everywhere. I asked my friend how can a guy like you see something everywhere that's not there. He responded with two things.
1.) You can't read.
2.) Something is blocking your brain.
Yeah can't read when guys on here say stuff like...
"God and our savior Jesus Christ" means one.
But God and our cleaner Joe means two.
Or "the word of the Lord came unto Joshua saying" means the word is Jesus a living creature.
But "the word from the home office was don't open the boxes yet" does not mean the word is a living creature.
No not desperate, but sad so many believe in something that is not there. I mean really convinced there's a trinity. The sad news is there's no trinity. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.
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Dizerner
Well-known member
You honestly don't know what you're talking about, no offense intended.
I mean beliefs and interpretation do not magically just come from words themselves. This whole idea fueling the prompt "show me that in Scripture" that the words of the Bible can somehow directly convey underlying metaphysical philosophical presuppositions by their "plain meaning" is just a fallacy. As soon as anyone even appeals to a "plain meaning," I know automatically they are confused about where meaning even derives from, and that presuppositions precede all meaning derived from syntax and vocabulary—and are most likely deceived already and not depending on revelation. I mean the fact that deception is not even you're number one reason, shows you don't even understand how meaning is derived. And Scripture clearly tells us truth comes by revelation and God can be experienced.
A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with just an argument.
civic
Well-known member
He was prayed to, worshipped. forgave sins ( they tried stoning Him for doing that )
civic
Well-known member
Lets prove point 1 above wrong and the rest are just as easy to prove you are wrong about Jesus.
Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” before He died on the cross. The first is the paralyzed man who was brought to Jesus by friends and lowered through a roof to be healed. “When Jesus saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven’” (Luke 5:20). The second person is the sinful woman who came to Jesus while He ate at Simon the Pharisee’s house. Seeing her reverence, the Lord contrasted her love with Simon’s lack of love. “Then Jesus said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven’” (Luke 7:48). In both cases, Jesus’ words caused quite a stir among the hearers (Luke 5:21; 7:49).
hope this helps !!!
Peterlag
Well-known member
Oh you misunderstood what I wrote. I was writing to a guy who tells me Jesus cannot forgive sins. Only God. Jesus should not be prayed to. Only God. Jesus should not be worshiped. Only God. So I'm saying these are the things you say and with zero Scripture.
A few things come to mind when considering this.
1.) The son of God cannot forgive sins.
1.) The son of God cannot be prayed to.
2.) The son of God cannot be worshiped.
And zero Scripture on all of it.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The Bible is an eastern book written in eastern customs and with many figures of speech. They wrote like many other countries still do using gender in their words. They called men and landlords along with rulers and kings god and Lord. What the trinity folks do is throw all of this out the window and bring their western American culture into the Bible and say see Jesus was called god. Well, so there it is he must be God.
Thomas is a great example. Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. And yet all trinity folks say nope. He not only called Jesus God, but this is also a teaching on the trinity. Yep, 100 percent proof because Thomas knew.
Seriously?
1
Luke 5:20–24 (LEB) — 20 And when he saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who is able to forgive sins except God alone?” 22 But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk?’ 24 But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” he said to the one who was paralyzed, “I say to you, ‘Get up and pick up your stretcher and go to your home.’ ”
Matthew 9:6 (LEB) — 6 But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your stretcher and go to your home.”
2
1 Corinthians 1:2–3 (LEB) — 2 to the church of God sanctified in Christ Jesus that is in Corinth, called to be saints, together with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours. 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 12:8 (LEB) — 8 Three times I appealed to the Lord about this, that it would depart from me.
Acts 7:59–60 (LEB) — 59 And they kept on stoning Stephen as he was calling out and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 And falling to his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And after he said this, he fell asleep.
1 John 5:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And this is the confidence that we have before him: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked from him.
Acts 1:24–25 (LEB) — 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show clearly which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to depart to his own place.”
3
Hebrews 1:6 (LEB) — 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”
Matthew 2:9–11 (LEB) — 9 After they listened to the king, they went out, and behold, the star which they had seen at its rising led them until it came and stood above the place where the child was. 10 Now when they saw the star, they rejoiced with very great joy. 11 And when they came into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. And opening their treasure boxes, they offered him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Matthew 8:2 (LEB) — 2 And behold, a leper approached and worshiped him, saying, “Lord, if you are willing, you are able to make me clean.”
Matthew 28:9 (LEB) — 9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Matthew 28:16–17 (LEB) — 16 So the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated for them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted.
John 9:35–38 (LEB) — 35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered and said, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen him, and he is the one who is speaking with you.” ⟦38 And he said, “I believe, Lord!” and he worshiped him.
Revelation 5:11–14 (LEB) — 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” 13 And I heard every creature that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and in the sea and everything in them saying, “To the one who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
You are 0 for three and looking biblically ignorant here
Oh so have you now given up your denial of Christ's pre-existence as the personal word?
Peterlag
Well-known member
Here's why many people believed in the Trinity!
They had NO choice!
They weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves.
The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including loss of job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, burning at the stake.
They had NO choice!
They weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves.
The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including loss of job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, burning at the stake.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Oh you misunderstood what I wrote. I was writing to a guy who tells me Jesus cannot forgive sins. Only God. Jesus should not be prayed to. Only God. Jesus should not be worshiped. Only God. So I'm saying these are the things you say and with zero Scripture.
A few things come to mind when considering this.
1.) The son of God cannot forgive sins.
1.) The son of God cannot be prayed to.
2.) The son of God cannot be worshiped.
And zero Scripture on all of it.
Johann
Well-known member
Peterlag
Well-known member
You lost me so I had a friend help me to understand what you're responding to. He said I just told you it was in God's foreknowledge but you can't see it because something is blocking your brain.
Existing in God's foreknowledge is not the pre-existence we read in the passage. It is your brain here which has short circuited
Philippians 2:6–8 (NIV) — 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
Philippians 2:6–8 (NASB95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:6–8 (KJV 1900) — 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He existed in the form of God and he was able to think, consider, regard and empty himself
That is not just a thought of another
How is it you and your friend are incapable of seeing the obvious?
So who told you those things. It was not I As I affirm the opposite of all three
Peterlag
Well-known member
Philippians 2:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.
The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.
From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.
Peterlag
Well-known member
All kinds of people everywhere and including on this site often tell me only God can forgive sins so Jesus must have been God. That only God can be worshiped and not Jesus so Jesus must be God because he was worshiped.
Well i posted verses proving Christ can forgive sin, Is prayed to and was worshipped
Where have you responded to them?
1
Luke 5:20–24 (LEB) — 20 And when he saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who is able to forgive sins except God alone?” 22 But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk?’ 24 But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” he said to the one who was paralyzed, “I say to you, ‘Get up and pick up your stretcher and go to your home.’ ”
Matthew 9:6 (LEB) — 6 But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your stretcher and go to your home.”
2
1 Corinthians 1:2–3 (LEB) — 2 to the church of God sanctified in Christ Jesus that is in Corinth, called to be saints, together with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours. 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 12:8 (LEB) — 8 Three times I appealed to the Lord about this, that it would depart from me.
Acts 7:59–60 (LEB) — 59 And they kept on stoning Stephen as he was calling out and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 And falling to his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And after he said this, he fell asleep.
1 John 5:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And this is the confidence that we have before him: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked from him.
Acts 1:24–25 (LEB) — 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show clearly which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to depart to his own place.”
3
Hebrews 1:6 (LEB) — 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”
Matthew 2:9–11 (LEB) — 9 After they listened to the king, they went out, and behold, the star which they had seen at its rising led them until it came and stood above the place where the child was. 10 Now when they saw the star, they rejoiced with very great joy. 11 And when they came into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. And opening their treasure boxes, they offered him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Matthew 8:2 (LEB) — 2 And behold, a leper approached and worshiped him, saying, “Lord, if you are willing, you are able to make me clean.”
Matthew 28:9 (LEB) — 9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Matthew 28:16–17 (LEB) — 16 So the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated for them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted.
John 9:35–38 (LEB) — 35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered and said, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen him, and he is the one who is speaking with you.” ⟦38 And he said, “I believe, Lord!” and he worshiped him.
Revelation 5:11–14 (LEB) — 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” 13 And I heard every creature that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and in the sea and everything in them saying, “To the one who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
You are dodging the point once again.
Pre-existence is the issue the passage is quoted for, and you just want to talk about other things
Are you not capable of rebutting the point and so you avoid it?
