mailmandan
Active member
Amen! James said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18) Show, not establish. Big difference.
Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
- Thread starter dwight92070
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dwight92070
Well-known member
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Jesus compared being born again or being born of the Spirit to the wind. John 3:6-8
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
The wind is invisible. When a person is born of the Spirit, the experience is invisible. The Holy Spirit does that work in the person's heart whenever He determines his heart is ready (the wind blows WHERE IT WISHES) without any physical evidence that we can see.
No man can decide when he will be born again or born of the Spirit. All he can do is humble his heart and prepare his soul and believe in Jesus and then he must wait on God. The Spirit will then initiate and perform the new birth WHEN HE DECIDES TO, NOT BEFORE. But if and when He does that miraculous work, the man will realize that He has been "touched by God" and transformed! Isn't this exactly what happened to Cornelius and his family?
To think that WE must add any kind of physical, visible work to this powerful, magnificent, invisible work of the Holy Spirit is to cheapen, degrade and defile the pure work of God.
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
The wind is invisible. When a person is born of the Spirit, the experience is invisible. The Holy Spirit does that work in the person's heart whenever He determines his heart is ready (the wind blows WHERE IT WISHES) without any physical evidence that we can see.
No man can decide when he will be born again or born of the Spirit. All he can do is humble his heart and prepare his soul and believe in Jesus and then he must wait on God. The Spirit will then initiate and perform the new birth WHEN HE DECIDES TO, NOT BEFORE. But if and when He does that miraculous work, the man will realize that He has been "touched by God" and transformed! Isn't this exactly what happened to Cornelius and his family?
To think that WE must add any kind of physical, visible work to this powerful, magnificent, invisible work of the Holy Spirit is to cheapen, degrade and defile the pure work of God.
Exactly. Faith is living or it produces no works
Doug Brents
Well-known member
If there is no action, then that "faith" is dead and cannot justify. Living faith must be present before salvation is received, so the action must be present before salvation is received. Faith without action does not justify.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Absolutely, but that is not what we are discussing. You are talking abut action without faith. We are discussing the other extreme: faith without action. Faith without action is also not genuine faith, it is dead.
Just saying that you have changed, and not acting out the change is neither real faith nor real repentance. Repentance is one of the actions of faith that is required by Scripture, but it is not the only action of faith that is required.
No, I do not place it "after". Repentance is part of faith.
OK, repentance comes first. Repentance, the mental, emotional, spiritual and physical turning from sin to accepting and following Jesus comes before we express our faith through confessing Him as Lord and being baptized into Christ to receive forgiveness of sin.
You are the one putting "days after one believes" into the conversation here. I am not putting any time between the two. But you are also the one who is putting belief as the point at which our sins are forgiven. Scripture does not. If you believe (truly and wholeheartedly), then you will naturally confess that Jesus is Lord and be baptized into Him. Conversely, if you don't confess Him and are not baptized into Him, then you really don't believe. That is what Scripture tells us. Yes, belief and confession are together chronologically, because your confession is a demonstration/proof of your belief. If there is no demonstration, then there is no faith.
This cannot happen. If you believe in Jesus, if He is your Lord, then you will do what He commands without question or hesitation. If you don't do what He commands, then He is not really your Lord. There cannot be a case of someone who really believes but is not baptized. That person is just giving lip service to "belief" but has not believed in their heart.
Condemnation rests on the fact that we have sinned. It is sin that separates us from God. Jesus is the only door back into proper relationship with God. We remain condemned if we do not believe. We enter into Christ through baptism. We are clothed with Christ through baptism. We are washed clean of every spot and wrinkle through baptism. We die to sin in baptism. We are circumcised by the Holy Spirit through baptism. The only way to enter the Kingdom of God is through rebirth by water and the Spirit.
Not sure where to find these verses. All there is here is a list of numbers with punctuation that are meaningless to this conversation.
Again, you talk as if "believes" means simply to give intellectual assent to the truth. That is not what believes means. Believes means to have an active, participatory faith. If you "believe" then you will obey, but if you don't obey then you didn't really believe in the first place. Baptism was not part of the discussion until after Pentecost. Jesus did not preach on baptism much (although He did mention it in John 3:5). The practice of baptism in order to receive forgiveness of sins did not start until Acts 2:38 when Peter preached the first sermon in the newly formed Kingdom of God.
Compare what Paul said about what happens in baptism in Rom 6:1-7 to Jesus statement that we must be "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5. Paul says that we die to sin and are resurrected with Jesus during baptism. That is what Jesus is talking about in John 3:5.
If His reference in John 3:5 were spiritual water, then He only needed to say born of the Spirit. But He didn't say just born of the Spirit. He said born of the Spirit and of water. The water He is talking about is not spiritual water flowing from the heart, but is physical water in which we are buried, and from which we arise as new creations.
And baptism means immersion, so you are saying that it should read, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living immersion". See how stupid it makes you look when you start rewriting God's Word.
And if that "outward ceremony" does not take place, then the inward change does not take place. It is passing through the water of baptism that brings about the rebirth/salvation.
The baptism that saves us must be baptism in water (as indicated by 1 Pet 3:21). And it is also an action that man must do (as indicated by Matt 28:19). Man is the one who does the baptizing, and it is the Holy Spirit that does the regenerating during the water baptism.
Continue reading.... "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." We are all sons and daughters of God because we have all been clothed with Christ THROUGH BAPTISM.
We are "given the right to become", not made into children of God through belief alone. We are made children of God through baptism.
Again, those who are baptized into Christ are enclosed in Christ, are made Children of God. But those who are not baptized into Christ are not wrapped up in/clothed with Christ.
YES!
We are clothed with Christ in baptism, but then we must grow in our knowledge and skill with Scripture and become clothed with the WHOLE armor of God. Not just having a shallow, surface knowledge of God, but knowing the Sword of Truth and how to use it properly. Having the breastplate of righteousness, knowing what is right and walking in it, etc. As with the seed that fell on the rocky soil, if we do not grow deeper roots in the faith, we are easily plucked out of the ground when trials come.
Baptism does not just "declare" Him to be our savior. It is when we enter into Him initially. Remember in the movie "The Three Musketeers"? At the end, when D'Artagnan was before the King, the King first named him a Musketeer, and then he was clothed in the uniform of the Musketeers. That is what you are describing here. Col 2:26-27 talks about the "knighting" ceremony (baptism), and then Rom 13:12, 14 is talking about the arming and uniforming.
If one believes in their heart, then they will obey what the One they believe commands. If they don't believe then they won't obey. If they don't obey then they don't believe. The only way salvation comes is through obedience, not just lip service.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, Saul's life was shaken, it was completely turned upside down because of what started with the occurrence on the Road. There is no doubt about that.
And down to here you are correct.
But right there you step outside of what Scripture says. Scripture says that three days later when Ananias came to him he was still in sin; he still needed to have his sins removed. So he could not have been forgiven there on the road before he went into the city.
The Spirit is invisible, and It is the wind which blows, but its effects are not invisible. We cannot see the wind currents, but we can see the trees, clouds, dust, etc. move because of the wind. So too we see hearts change and lives move because of the Holy Spirit. And we are told specifically when the Spirit will move: during baptism the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us (spiritual circumcision)(Col 2:11-14).
That sounds good from a fatalistic/humanistic point of view. But it is not accurate from a Biblical point of view. We are commanded in Matt 28:10 to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, and Teach them, and in Mark 16:16 we see that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. So these are actions the teacher must do. Then in Acts 2:38, the student is commanded to repent (these men had already "believed" the truth of Peter's message), and to be baptized. So both the teacher and the student are commanded to the same act, and told that it results in the student receiving forgiveness of sin. Then in Rom 6:1-7 we are told that the Holy Spirit functions in baptism to remove sin (make us dead to sin) and to resurrect us to new life in Jesus. So, just as the Holy Spirit removed Naaman's leprosy because he obeyed the command of God through the prophet, so too the Holy Spirit removes our sins because we obey the command of God through the Apostles.
dwight92070
Well-known member
That's ridiculous. So Jesus tells Saul that He will save him, which includes forgiving his sins - Acts 10:43, but he'll have to wait three days, so that Ananias can baptize him. It's also misunderstanding Ananias' words: "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." We've said it before, and the scripture says it, baptism does not wash away any sins, only the blood of Jesus washes away sins.
"... and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
However, "calling on His name" does bring forgiveness and salvation.
So why would Ananias think that Saul still has sins, even after seeing Jesus three days earlier? Well, he knew Saul's evil deeds before seeing Jesus. He may have thought that Saul committed sins during those three days. But we know that Ananias knew that Saul was saved when Jesus appeared to him, because he called Saul "BROTHER Saul" Acts 22:13 and Acts 9:17 Christians hardly ever call unsaved persons "brother" unless they're speaking to their siblings.
"... and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
However, "calling on His name" does bring forgiveness and salvation.
So why would Ananias think that Saul still has sins, even after seeing Jesus three days earlier? Well, he knew Saul's evil deeds before seeing Jesus. He may have thought that Saul committed sins during those three days. But we know that Ananias knew that Saul was saved when Jesus appeared to him, because he called Saul "BROTHER Saul" Acts 22:13 and Acts 9:17 Christians hardly ever call unsaved persons "brother" unless they're speaking to their siblings.
Once again a living faith pre-exists any works or no works will be produced
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Jesus did not tell Saul that He would save him at any point during their conversation on the Road.
"suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.”"
"at about noon, a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me, 7 and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 And I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’ 10 And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told about everything that has been appointed for you to do.’"
Acts 10:43 does not apply to Saul on the Road. He gave intellectual assent to Jesus, but he did not yet have faith in Jesus. He had not yet been told what he must do. That is what Ananias was sent to tell him.
The water does not wash away sins, it is the Holy Spirit who does that during water baptism, as we have already discussed.
Calling on the name of the Lord does indeed bring forgiveness, if it is done correctly in the correct context. As Jesus says, there will be many who call Jesus Lord, but whom Jesus never knew, because they called on His name incorrectly, without obedience. If you "call on Jesus' name" but do not have faith, then your sins are not forgiven and you receive no salvation. If you call on Jesus' name in complete surrender to Him, through repentance and baptism, then the Holy Spirit removes your sins and unites you to Jesus.
Now you are putting your suppositions in the place of clear Scripture. The Scriptures are not man's erroneous, rambling suppositions. Every word is the direct Word of God put on paper. Ananias was sent by Jesus to tell Saul a particular message. Jesus was speaking directly to Saul through Ananias' mouth. It is God who told Saul that he was still in sin, and needed to wash away that sin through the Holy Spirit in baptism.
In modern language, yes, Christians call other Christians "brother" and "sister". But that was not yet a common occurrence in the first century. Ananias and Saul were both Jews, so they were brothers in the Nation of Israel. Saul was not yet clothed with Christ until he put on Christ in baptism (Gal 3:26-27).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Prove it. Show me your "living faith" without works. It cannot be done. It is not possible to have "living faith" without works, just as it is not possible to have a "living body" without the soul. Just as the soul is the life of the body, so too works are the soul of faith.
Conflating the demonstration of a reality with a demonstration of the that reality
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Say what? That makes absolutely no sense.
If anything is conflated here, it is Scripture that is doing the combining. Scripture is very clear that faith does not really exist until it is put into action. Naaman was not cured of leprosy until he did what God told him to do in order to receive cleansing. The walls of Jericho did not fall until the Nation of Israel did what God told them to do in order for them to fall. The widow's oil flowed continually until all the jars she had collected were completely full, if she had collected more jars, they would have been filled too; it was the extent of her obedience that set the limit of her gift. The other widow's flour and oil did not increase to last through the famine until after she did what God told her to do in order to receive food through the famine. And there are many, many more examples. God's blessing is not received until we have met the conditions He has set for the reception of that blessing. The conditions for receiving forgiveness of sin are: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). Forgiveness is received when we die to sin and have the stain of sin cut from us in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
mailmandan
Active member
It takes a living faith to produce action. A good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17) Faith has an origin and it's not after the action/good fruit is produced. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Faith that produces no good fruit demonstrates that it's not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14)
The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. To change one's mind.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3340/metanoeo.htm#:~:text=Strong's #3340: metanoeo (pronounced met-an-o-eh'-o) from 3326 and,i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent. Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side (what you change your mind about) and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ. (Acts 20:21)
Certain folks misunderstand the term "repentance" to simply mean "moral self-reformation" or "completely stop sinning" yet the word "repent" basically means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind). These certain people end up confusing the "fruit of repentance" with the "essence of repentance" (and also do the same thing with faith) and end up teaching salvation by works. Sound familiar?
From one of your posts - "We must believe, but we also must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), and we must also confess Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and we must also be baptized (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38). All of these acts, just like belief of the Gospel, Scripture says lead to our receiving salvation. Belief is not the only thing we must do to receive salvation."
The Bible states that one is saved the moment they believe the gospel, yet you add these additional steps "after" one believes the gospel in order to be saved, which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Repent precedes believing the gospel and belief and confess are not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Water baptism follows saving belief in Christ and salvation. Folks in the church of Christ have a multi-step plan of salvation and there is an order to it. Notice the order from multiple statements of faith on church of Christ sites below. They typically add "hear" to the list as well.
What must I do to be saved
OceanSide church of Christ located at 1025 Snug Harbor Court, Atlantic Beach FL
Eastside Church of Christ - God’s Plan of Salvation
What Must I Do To Be Saved? Introduction What must I do to be saved? It is a timeless question that has been asked many times. Despite the confusion created by man, God’s Holy Word is unambiguous in answering this question. By studying Ephesians 1:3-8, we can clearly see that God made provisions
welcome.eastside-churchofchrist.org
Plan of Salvation |
The Bible is very clear about what it takes to be saved. Here is the simple plan of salvation revealed in God's word:
www.rrcoc.com
Are you actually admitting that repentance precedes believing the gospel? Define turning from sin. Completely stop sinning 24/7? So, you have one who repents and believes the gospel in a lost state until later, after they confess Jesus as Lord and receive water baptism? Sigh. You just don't get it no matter how many times I explain it to you and there is a reason for that.
Scripture does not, huh? (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER, chronologically. (Romans 10:8) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) Confession is an expression or demonstration of our belief. No confession means no belief in our heart. Water baptism "follows" believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation.
It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, but if someone is on their death bed and cannot get baptized before death, they are still saved because they BELIEVED (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."
Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Any one professing to believe/trust in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone who truly believes the gospel would refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion and I cannot think of one Christian that I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.
Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture.
Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved the moment that they place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.
An excellent sermon that I recently heard at church which talked about false religion being a distortion of redemption and false religion always turns symbols and shadows of our salvation into the substance and the source would have been the perfect sermon for you to hear! But not before your heart was prepared to hear it. A woman who previously attended the church of Christ gave a testimony at our church just before that sermon on how she finally overcame that fatal error and has come to receive Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God!
Are you next?Amen! (Romans 3:23; 6:23; John 3:18)
You confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). What is signified in water baptism is not procured in water baptism. Water and Spirit in John 3:5 is not water baptism, as I already thoroughly explained to you in post #1,000 from the link below:
Accidently left off "John" 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 and I can assure you that these verses are not meaningless to this conversation.
Believing in our heart, trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation goes beyond simply believing in our head/mere intellectual assent that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that it happened, and they also believe "mental assent" that there is one God," (James 2:19) but they are not saved. So, saving belief/faith in Christ goes beyond mere intellectual assent. This belief/faith also results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.
Jesus did not mention "baptism" in John 3:5. That is your eisegesis. Roman Catholics make the same error as well.
The heretical teaching of baptismal regeneration started with the Roman Catholic church and not in Acts 2:38. See post #263 from the link below.
False. Again, you confuse the picture with the reality in Romans 6:1-7 and you "add" the word baptism (eisegesis) to John 3:5.
You only seem to understand natural water and not spiritual cleansing. (1 Corinthians 2:14) The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. (John 7:37-39)
I read John 3:5 and John 7:38 just as it reads "apart from additions or modifications" unlike you. John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. You "add" the word "baptism" here when it is nowhere found. Who is the one rewriting God's Word and looking stupid? Not me, but you.
False. Water baptism is the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality. Your church has deceived you.
More eisegesis. In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus said to go and make disciples and baptize them, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. Nothing here from Jesus about whoever is not baptized will be condemned. See John 3:18 to find out who will be condemned and for what reason.
I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #160 but I can see that the truth just went right over your head, as usual.
NO! Your pet doctrine is a deception.
Once again, I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #160. You just don't listen.
I already covered Ephesians 6:11, along with Ephesians 4:22,24 and Romans 13:12,14 in regard to "put on" but it's like you did not even hear a word I said. You are just stuck in your false belief system. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. In regard to the seed that fell on rocky soil, unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. In contrast with the seed that fell on good ground seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and was referred to as "good ground."
False, but your beliefs are fixed, and your conscience may even be seared.
Go back and read post #160 again, sincerely seeking the truth and I pray that the Lord will open your heart to the truth.
You continue to trust in your obedience/works (what you DO for the Lord) instead of trusting exclusively in what the Lord has already DONE for you. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) so seeking salvation through obedience/works instead of through faith in Jesus Christ alone is in vain and that kind of misguided 'alleged' obedience results in self-righteousness and lip service.
civic
Well-known member
ditto
It makes plenty of sense
A barometer does not determine the air pressure, but it does provide a way to measure it
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There can be no separation between a living faith and actions. If a faith is alive, it is demonstrated through works. If a faith is not alive, there are no works. If a "faith" produces works, then it is alive. If a "faith" does not produce works, then it is not alive. All four of these are true. And as stated in Eph 2:8-9, it is through a living, works producing faith that salvation is received by man. If there is no active, works producing faith then there is no salvation received.
When God breathed the spirit of man into the body He had made, that breath made the body alive. That living body then went on to perform good works as a fruit of life. But the spirit that God had breathed into him made Him alive. So yes, there are "good works" that are a fruit of faith. But there are also works that make faith alive. There are works that precede the reception of salvation just as Scripture states.
There is repentance from disbelief, repentance from a sinful lifestyle, repentance from a decision, etc. Even God repented from making a decision to destroy mankind. Some of the passages you cited earlier talk about repentance from disbelief, and this obviously comes before/as a part of believing in Jesus. But you can repent from disbelief in Jesus and still not repent from sin. I have seen people who believed in Jesus, believed He is the Son of God, yet they did not make Him their Lord and repent from their sinful lifestyle, and so remained condemned in their sin. Repentance from sin comes after belief in Jesus, because it is part of making Him Lord.
The Bible does NOT state that "one is saved the moment they believe the gospel". The Bible states that there are certain conditions upon which salvation is received. Those conditions are stated in Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, and Rom 10:9-10.
Stop for a minute and answer a question for me. Does Rom 10:8-10 say that the verbal confession results in receiving salvation?
No, it does not. Water baptism is the event during which the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us (Col 2:11-14), that we die to sin Rom 6:1-7, that we enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5), that we become children of God clothed in Christ (Gal 3:26-27). It is the moment of our salvation, not following after.
And what does Scripture say about that?Folks in the church of Christ have a multi-step plan of salvation and there is an order to it. Notice the order from multiple statements of faith on church of Christ sites below. They typically add "hear" to the list as well.
What must I do to be saved
OceanSide church of Christ located at 1025 Snug Harbor Court, Atlantic Beach FLoceansidechurchofchrist.net
Eastside Church of Christ - God’s Plan of Salvation
What Must I Do To Be Saved? Introduction What must I do to be saved? It is a timeless question that has been asked many times. Despite the confusion created by man, God’s Holy Word is unambiguous in answering this question. By studying Ephesians 1:3-8, we can clearly see that God made provisionsPlan of Salvation |
The Bible is very clear about what it takes to be saved. Here is the simple plan of salvation revealed in God's word:www.rrcoc.com
Rom 10:8-14 - We must hear the Word before we can believe it. We must believe the Word before we can call on the Lord. And calling on the Lord is the same as confessing Jesus as Lord.
So there in a short seven verses you have Hear, Believe, and Confess all placed in a specific order. Hear, then believe, then confess.
Acts 3:19 - We must repent of our sins and turn back to God so that our sins can be forgiven.
Somewhere in the process of hearing, believing, and confession Jesus, we must also repent of our sins. Does it matter where in that process it comes? I don't find any verse that puts repent anywhere within those three, but we do know that it must come before salvation is received, so I will put it at the very latest that it can come in the list below.
So now we have:
Hear
Believe
Confess and Repent
Finally, we have Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, 1 Pet 3:21 and others that place salvation as being received during baptism. That means that all the other things in the list above must come before baptism. Is that the Church of Christ, or me, making those commands? Did we set that up, just because we are the messenger telling you the truth of what God said? No. These are HIS commands, not mine. It is HE who sets these conditions, and HE who requires them.
No. That is not possible for any human (other than Jesus Himself). We still live in a world of temptation, and God knows that we will fall. But when we do, we repent again, turning back to Him daily, continually (1 John 1:7-10).
Belief, and repentance, and confession, and baptism should happen within minutes, hours at the most. Notice that the Jailer was baptized that same hour of the night. Saul was told to make haste and be baptized. Repeatedly we are told that the people who heard the Gospel and believed it were taken immediately and baptized. You have the modern "church culture" in your mind where there is a monthly, or maybe quarterly, "baptism Sunday" event where everyone who believes they are already saved comes to "outwardly show their inward change". But that was not the first century view on things. When someone expressed their belief in the Gospel, they were IMMEDIATELY baptized into Christ, as fast as possible.
So you are saying that those verses are more "Scripture", more inspired by God, than is Acts 2:38, or 1 Pet 3:21, or Rom 6:1-7, or Rom 10:9-10, or Acts 3:19?
If ALL of Scripture is inspired by God, then ALL of Scripture must be equally true at the same time. That means that you cannot just take these verses from John that say only "believe", and not also include the verses that say other things are required to be saved. Yes, these verses that you cite say that belief in Jesus in necessary to receive salvation. But Acts 3:19 says that repentance is necessary to receive salvation (forgiveness of sin). Is Acts 3:19 a lie? Should we cut it from the Scriptures because it doesn't agree with your interpretation of John 1:12? No! It, along with every other verse that talks about what is required to receive salvation, must be included in our understanding of what John 1:12 says so as not to create a contradiction.
The Holy Spirit can and does work in people's lives before they are saved. Just because someone confesses Jesus as Lord does not mean that they are saved. Quite the contrary, Rom 10:10 says that confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in salvation. Thus confession MUST come before salvation is received.
After we believe, but not after we are saved. That would contradict Scripture, and Scripture is always right.
You seem to be under the impression that the default condition of man is to become saved. No, the default condition of man is condemnation, and we must come to God as He demands in order to receive His forgiveness. Just "believing" on your death bed is meaningless. It does not fulfill the requirements set out by God for reception of His gift. Does that mean that God is incapable of saving such a person? No, but it does mean that He has said that He won't save such a person.
We are not "converted" to Christ until we are born again. And Rom 6:1-7 says that we are born again in baptism. We die to sin and are resurrected in likeness of Chirst Jesus during baptism. That is the point at which we are converted, from death to life, from sin to righteousness, from the World to Christ.
True.
Christ's death, burial, and resurrection has no meaning to someone who has not been born again, and we are born again through water and the Spirit, through dying to sin and being resurrected to new life by the Holy Spirit in baptism.
You do not really "believe, trust, rely" on Christ if you do not submit to His commands. He has said that we cannot enter the Kingdom unless we are born again through water and the Spirit (both). If you trust in Him, then you will do what He says. If you don't do what He says, then you really don't trust Him.
You are correct, we are saved by grace (God's gift) through faith (our active belief and trust in Him). If we trust in Him, then we will accept what He has said. Yes, good works flow out of salvation. But repentance, confession, and baptism are not "good works". Good works are looking after widows and orphans, giving our tithe, loving our neighbor, etc. Things that benefit others, and show God's love to those who see us.
I received Jesus thorugh faith back in 1986.An excellent sermon that I recently heard at church which talked about false religion being a distortion of redemption and false religion always turns symbols and shadows of our salvation into the substance and the source would have been the perfect sermon for you to hear! But not before your heart was prepared to hear it. A woman who previously attended the church of Christ gave a testimony at our church just before that sermon on how she finally overcame that fatal error and has come to receive Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God!
No confusion. Jesus Himself said that the teacher must be the one to baptize, thus it is an action that man does. His Apostle, Peter, in the first sermon ever preached in the newly begun Church, commanded that the people who heard the Gospel and believed it must repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of their sins. So it is an action that the hearer must submit to. This cannot be "spirit baptism", although the Spirit is certainly active in water baptism as described in Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14.
Ahh, John. Sorry, I didn't know what book you were referring to. Yes, those are excellent verses and are certainly relevant to this conversation, as long as they are not taken in isolation from the rest of Scripture.
That is what you are saying the person on his deathbed is doing.
Yes, the actions that God has said lead to/result in receiveing salvation are inherent in what belief/faith means.
He said that a person cannot enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) without being reborn of water and the Spirit. What other aspect of water is in any place in Scripture mentioned as related to salvation other than baptism?
"Baptismal regeneration" is your label used to try to discredit the truth of Scripture. The Scripture is very clear that we die to sin and are reborn in relationship with God through water baptism.
No, I connect the many passages on salvation in Scripture that put the timing of our reception of forgiveness in baptism.False. Again, you confuse the picture with the reality in Romans 6:1-7 and you "add" the word baptism (eisegesis) to John 3:5.
Yes, He is. But He is not the only thing that Jesus mentions in John 3:5. He says both the Spirit AND water. Not spiritual water, but physical water.
Dan, after one is saved, then out of his heart will flow the living water. But that does not indicate how he became saved. The water in John 3:5 is physical, not the Spiritual water that flows out from having been reborn.
Spirit baptism occurs during water baptism.
He said that water baptism now saves you. No, it is not for removing dirt from the body.
WATER BAPTISM is an appeal to God for a good conscience. That is what it means that water baptism now saves you. Yes, the Spirit is involved, because He is the one cutting our sins from us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Yes, I heard what you said, and I pointed out the falsehoods that you had in your statements.
Only the first soil, the rocky ground from which the birds (Satan) came and took the good news away, remaind lost. The other three accepted the good news and were saved, but then the middle two lost that salvation because it was either choaked out by the world, or withered from persecution due to shallow roots.
My conviction is absolutely fixed on the truth of God's Word. And my conscience is clean through the working of the Holy Spirit. What I have said is what the Scriptures say, and where I have been shown to be in the wrong I have admitted as much.False, but your beliefs are fixed, and your conscience may even be seared.
Israel trusted God, and so they marched around (a completely useless strategic opperation) the city of Jericho for seven days as instructed by God. Did they tell God, "That makes not sense to march around the city. We should attack." No, they were obedient to Him, and so He knocked the walls down, just as He said He would.
Similarly, I trust in what God has said about salvation. I believe He has instructed us to repent of our sins, and I do so continually (Acts 3:19). He has instructed us to confess Jesus' name as Lord, and I have done so, and continue to do so (Rom 10:9-10). And He has instructed us to be baptized, and I have done so (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:1-7). This is what He has commanded saying that if you do these things He will forgive your sins and save you from eternal death. I trust that He will do as He promises.
And failure to obey results in condemnation and being told that He never knew you. I choose to trust in His word, rather than my own understanding.
mailmandan
Active member
Key word. DEMONSTRATED. Living faith starts with being made alive together with Christ and is demonstrated by good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
As I already explained to you numerous times. The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You can be physically alive and yet spiritually dead.
Yes, we can repent (change our mind) about a number of things but only a change of mind that results in believing the gospel saves. Multiple translations say that God 'relented' instead of repented. (Exodus 32:14; Judges 2:18; 2 Samuel 24:16) God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)
The demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but they do not trust in Him for salvation and neither do intellectual believers who fall short of trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. If we have become born again then we are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) who practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10) There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians.
Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Also see Ephesians 1:13.
You erroneously place these conditions "after" one believes the gospel in order to be saved. Repentance precedes believing the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; 20:21) Confessing with our mouth and believing in our heart are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Why do you leave out verse 8? Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47)
It says the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER with the heart one believes unto righteousness and confession with the mouth is unto salvation. Yet according to your interpretation, someone who is able to speak (mute) would remain lost for failing to verbally confess with their mouth. Also, confession precedes water baptism in the church of Christ 4-5 step plan of salvation, so you have that dilemma.
False. Water baptism is the picture, but not the reality. John 1:12 says we become children of God by believing in His name and not by water baptism. Galatians 3:26 also says we are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus and not faith and water baptism. None of these verses that you cite above support salvation at the moment of baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality. You confuse physical H20 with living water and water baptism with Spirit baptism. What a mess!
Of course, we must first hear the gospel before we repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel. Also, the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10)
When you say "repent of your sins" do you mean completely stop sinning 24/7? Do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time?
The Bible makes it clear that man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) In Acts 10, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being baptized (Acts 10:44-47). Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ. (Acts 10:43)
Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of "alleged" proof texts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, although they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
So, you interpret repentance as a merry go round of sin, repent, sin again, repent and hope you repented after the last sin before you die?
Your interpretation culminates in "type 2 works salvation." In regard to 1 John 7-10, see posts #1,146 and #980 from the links below:Not everyone in our modern-day society has the chance to immediately get water baptized after they believe the gospel and are saved as they did in the 1st century. I came to believe the gospel on a Saturday night but was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning.
All of these Scriptures are inspired by God but wrongly interpreted by you.
You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. You create contradictions with your "patched together" gospel plan.
The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.
Believing on his deathbed was not meaningless for the thief on the cross.
Nowhere in Scripture do you see the words born again in baptism. More eisegesis on your part. The washing of regeneration is pictured but not procured in water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality.
Signified but not procured in water baptism.
You trust in your eisegesis which results in you trusting in baptism for salvation instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. It's one thing to trust in Jesus for salvation and its another thing to trust in Him after salvation. Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit in John 3:5 and Jesus had a lot to say about living water in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39).
This is where you "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Did you place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation in 1986 or did you place your faith in "water and works" for salvation?
You remain confused. Your church has really done a number on you.
Isolation? Are these verses true or not? Do you need to "patch them together" with other verses before you accept them?
Faith in Christ alone saved the dying thief.
Roman Catholics teach this same error.
John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.
Signified, pictured in baptism but NOT PROCURED.
Flawed hermeneutics.
Show me the word "physical" in John 3:5.
Sigh. You just do t get it.
One again, you JUST DONT GET IT.
Its your statements that contain falsehoods.
False. Only the 4th soil was good ground and produced fruit. Faith without works is dead, remember?
Your conviction is absolutely fixed on your 'eisegesis' (the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases) and not the truth found in God's Word. The end result of your erroneous multi-step plan of salvation is a 'works based' false gospel. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on unbelief.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The key word is not "demonstrated". The key word is "alive". If there is no action, then the "faith" is not alive. If the "faith" is not alive, then there is no action. You cannot separate action from living faith. You show me that you have a living faith without works (you can't do it), and I will show you that I have a living faith by my works.
That is your opinion, not what Scripture says. Scripture says nothing about the mode of operation, but it does give several examples of how the works that people did were the life of their faith. Even beyond that, God through the Scriptures says that man is not justified by faith alone (a dead faith), but by faith and works. A dead, inactive "faith" is not faith at all, for that kind of faith cannot save us.
They fall short of obeying Him. Obedience is REQUIRED to receive salvation, and the demons and "intellectual believers" fall short because they do not obey Him.
And the difference between the genuine and the nominal is found in their obedience.
That is all well and good, but that verse is not more important than Acts 2:38 or 1 Pet 3:21. While it is good to understand that we must believe in who Jesus is and what He did for us, it is also important for us to understand that we MUST obey Him to be in Him (Heb 5:9, James 2:24, Luke 6:46-49).
No, Scripture does.
Repentance from disbelief precedes believing, but repentance from sin follows belief.
Yes, they are chronologically together; get over it. They both must happen BEFORE salvation is received. (gasp) What? A physical action that precedes reception of salvation? Yes, a physical action that results in receiving salvation.
I do not leave out verse 8. Verse 8 is beautiful, but it does not change the fact of verse 10. Confession of Jesus as Lord WITH THE MOUTH (a physical action) results in (therefore must precede) salvation.
Water baptism is the point at which salvation is received (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21).
There is no dilemma. The confession is made at the time that baptism is done. The mute speak through their hands, their hands are their "mouth", their method of communication. All of the passages of Scripture that speak about what is required to receive salvation must be true at the same time.
All of the passages of Scripture that speak about what is required to receive salvation must be true at the same time (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, and many others).
Baptism is part of the faith that brings salvation to us. All of the passages of Scripture that speak about what is required to receive salvation must be true at the same time (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, and many others).
Again, all of the passages of Scripture that speak about what is required to receive salvation must be true at the same time. 1 Pet 3:21 says that the baptism that saves us is baptism in water. Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16 say that the baptism that saves us is a baptism done by the teacher of the Gospel. Acts 2:38 says that the student who believes must be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin. Acts 8:36-39 demonstrates that the teachers of the first century taught water baptism (not spirit baptism) from the very beginning. Acts 22:16 is talking about water baptism, because if it was spirit baptism Saul would not have had to move from his seat. There is no mess except in your refusal to accept the Word of God as your authority.
I have already answered that in post 177 above. No, I am not sinless 24/7. No, repent of sins does not mean to stop sinning 24/7. It means to turn back to God away from the sinful lifestyle we had before we heard the Gospel. And then to continually turn back to Him when we stumble back into sin after we are saved.
This is true, but it does not mean that there are no actions required to receive salvation. It simply means that those actions that are required do not "earn" or "deserve" salvation. Turning from sin is not worth anyone's life, let alone the Son of God. Being pushed beneath the surface of some water is not worth anyone's life, let alone the Son of God. But those actions are required of us before we receive the blessing of forgiveness.
They were indeed speaking in tongues, but that is not a gift only for those in the Church; that is not what 1 Cor 12 indicates. The Gentiles in Acts 10 were not saved until they were baptized in water after the Holy Spirit fell on them in miraculous power.
I would be willing to accept that if it fit with Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Gal 3:26-27, and other passages.
That is at least a good step in the right direction, but not far enough. What is the purpose of baptism in Acts 2:38? It is not just a throw-in. It is linked with repentance and both are done in order to receive forgiveness of sin. What happens during baptism in Rom 6:1-7? We die to sin and are resurrected with Jesus to new life. What happens during baptism in Col 2:11-14? The Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us to Jesus' resurrection. What was Saul told to do and why in Acts 22:16? Get up (why did he have to move if this were spirit baptism), and be baptized and wash away his sins while calling on the name of the Lord.
There is no "merry go round of sin". The blood of Jesus continually cleanses us (those who are already in Christ) from all sin as long as we are walking in the Light. We all stumble and fall into sin, even after we are saved, but if we are continually repenting and turning back to God after we sin, His blood continually cleanses us from that sin. It is when we turn into sin with an unrepentant heart that we cease to walk in the Light, and His blood ceases to continually cleanse us.So, you interpret repentance as a merry go round of sin, repent, sin again, repent and hope you repented after the last sin before you die?
They are not saved when they "believe" but before they repent, confess, and are baptized.
So you were saved on Sunday morning when you confessed Jesus before the people gathered and were baptized.
I accept what the words say, and don't interpret them based on a preconceived notion. And that is wrongly interpreting them?
You reword them, twist their meaning, or ignore them so that they will fit with your preconception. And that is rightly interpreting them?
Does confession result in (and therefore precede) salvation, according to Rom 10:10? Simple question. Yes or no.
No, it was not. Because he was hanging next to Jesus. And Jesus, before He died, gave the man a promise that he would be in paradise. But when Jesus died, His last will and testament was sealed. It cannot be changed. And it says that the way we receive salvation today is through baptism.
John 3:5 says that we cannot be enter the Kingdom of God (which is made up of only the saved) except by being reborn of water and the Spirit (both). Rom 6:1-7 says that we die to sin in baptism, and from baptism arise to new life having been resurrected by the Holy Spirit like Jesus. Col 2:11-14 says that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us in baptism, and in so doing unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection. No, we don't see the words "born again in baptism" in that order or said in that way. But we do see the statements above that show us that truth.
Not true in the least. As you said, baptism has no meaning except through the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. And He said that it is through baptism that we receive His forgiveness and salvation. Who am I to dispute Him?
I placed my faith, and it is still there, solely in Jesus Christ's life, death, burial, and resurrection. And because my faith is in Him, and what He did, I trust in what He said. And He said that only those who repent and are baptized will receive forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38), that only those born of water and the Spirit will enter His Kingdom (John 3:5), that you must repent to receive forgiveness (Acts 3:19), that anyone who confesses Him publicly He will confess publicly in Heaven, but anyone who does not confess Him publicly He will deny publicly in Heaven (Matt 10:32-33), and whoever is believes in Him and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). So, since I trust in what He says, and believe He is a God that keeps His word, I accept that I must do what He has said will result in the gifts He has promised. If I didn't trust Him, then I wouldn't do what He says.
Yes, those verses are true. But they do not give the whole picture. Consider the plaque on the cross that told of the charge against Jesus. Mark says that it said, “THE KING OF THE JEWS.” (John 15:26). Is that verse wrong? No. But it is not the complete story, because John tells us that the plaque said, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.” 20 ... and it was written in Hebrew, Latin, and in Greek." So if we just read Mark, we get an incomplete picture of what happened. It is the same with the passages you list that only speak of "believe", but don't tell us what it takes to "believe".
The second and third soils received the Word and it grew in them.
"Listen then to the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. 20 The one sown with seed on the rocky places, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one sown with seed among the thorns, this is the one who hears the word, and the anxiety of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 But the one sown with seed on the good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much." Matt 13:18-22
The seed in rocky places is received with joy, but has not grown firm roots. To be temporary, it had to exist for a time. And so when persecution comes it falls away, rather than stand firm to the end.
The seed in the thorns grows some, but is choked out and produces no fruit.
Both of these demonstrated faith leading to salvation, but only the soil that is good produces the fruit of the Spirit.
You seem to spend a lot of time in eisegesis yourself. As I have demonstrated to you, all of the passages of Scripture that talk about Salvation must be considered together, and all must agree with the conclusion at which we arrive. There are too many passages (one is enough) that say baptism in water is the point at which we are saved to even consider that salvation occurs simply with an intellectual assent belief.Your conviction is absolutely fixed on your 'eisegesis' (the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases) and not the truth found in God's Word. The end result of your erroneous multi-step plan of salvation is a 'works based' false gospel. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on unbelief.
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