Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[TomL]

Justification IS salvation. You cannot have salvation without being justified, and you cannot be justified without being saved. Justification occurs when sin is cut from us by the Holy Spirit, and that occurs during water baptism, not before.

No justification is not

Being born again, being given life is not justification

 

[Doug Brents]

No justification is not

Being born again, being given life is not justification

Being justified is part of being given new life. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[TomL]

Being justified is part of being given new life. You cannot have one without the other.

Justification is not new life

New Life (regeneration) is differentiated from Justification

 

[Doug Brents]

Justification is not new life

New Life (regeneration) is differentiated from Justification

I didn't say they were the same thing. I said they happen at the same time, and cannot happen separately. When one is justified, they are also resurrected, and made new creatures (Tit 3:4-7, Rom 6:4-5, Col 2:13). One cannot be justified without being made new, and one cannot be made new without being justified.

 

[TomL]

I didn't say they were the same thing. I said they happen at the same time, and cannot happen separately. When one is justified, they are also resurrected, and made new creatures (Tit 3:4-7, Rom 6:4-5, Col 2:13). One cannot be justified without being made new, and one cannot be made new without being justified.

Really?

Justification was found in the old Covenant

Regeneration through the indwelling Spirit did not transpire until the new covenant

 

[Doug Brents]

Really?

Justification was found in the old Covenant

Regeneration through the indwelling Spirit did not transpire until the new covenant

Justification in the OT was based on the sacrifice of Jesus, just as it is today. His death removed sin from mankind from Creation to Judgement. Those who were justified in the OT were also regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but He did not indwell them; today we receive both regeneration and indwelling.

 

[TomL]

Justification in the OT was based on the sacrifice of Jesus, just as it is today. His death removed sin from mankind from Creation to Judgement. Those who were justified in the OT were also regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but He did not indwell them; today we receive both regeneration and indwelling.

Sorry no. Regeneration was not found in the Old testament

And was a future promise

Ezekiel 36:24–27 (NASB 2020) — 24 For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the lands; and I will bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB 2020) — 31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry no. Regeneration was not found in the Old testament

And was a future promise

Ezekiel 36:24–27 (NASB 2020) — 24 For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the lands; and I will bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB 2020) — 31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

So you are saying that Abraham, and Noah, and Moses, and Aaron, and Daniel, and Samson, and ... will not be in Heaven because they were not regenerated? Sorry, but that is not true. We know for sure that Moses and Abraham will be in Heaven, because they came to speak with Jesus when He was transfigured. And so, because we know they will be in Heaven with us, we also know that they have been given new life through Christ (regenerated). Did they receive that regeneration during their life? Or did they not receive it until they died? I believe that they received it during their lifetime.

Nothing in either of these passages in any way indicates that there was no regeneration in the Old Testament. They certainly indicate that there is a significant difference between the Old and New Covenants (having the Law written on our hearts, having the indwelling of the Spirit, having sin actually removed and not just rolled forward each year), but there is nothing here that points to regeneration starting with the New Covenant.

 

[Jim]

This one verse alone makes baptism have nothing to do with salvation of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul says, “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel.

It does not such thing. It just points to the work that God wanted Paul to concentrate on, namely preaching the message of the gospel. He left the work of actual baptizing to others. It changes nothing about what is accomplished in the act of baptism.

 

[Jim]

So you are saying that Abraham, and Noah, and Moses, and Aaron, and Daniel, and Samson, and ... will not be in Heaven because they were not regenerated? Sorry, but that is not true. We know for sure that Moses and Abraham will be in Heaven, because they came to speak with Jesus when He was transfigured. And so, because we know they will be in Heaven with us, we also know that they have been given new life through Christ (regenerated). Did they receive that regeneration during their life? Or did they not receive it until they died? I believe that they received it during their lifetime.

Nothing in either of these passages in any way indicates that there was no regeneration in the Old Testament. They certainly indicate that there is a significant difference between the Old and New Covenants (having the Law written on our hearts, having the indwelling of the Spirit, having sin actually removed and not just rolled forward each year), but there is nothing here that points to regeneration starting with the New Covenant.

The preaching of John the Baptist does point to regeneration starting with the New Covenant. Baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit is one and the same as regeneration. While there seem to be indications that some select individuals received some form of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Psa 51:11), there is no indication that condition was at all universal or even common. The indwelling Holy Spirit is indeed a feature of the New Covenant and not of the Old Covenant. We know that the Comforter, the Paraclete, was not available to the apostles or anyone else before Pentecost (John 15:4-15).

 

[TomL]

So you are saying that Abraham, and Noah, and Moses, and Aaron, and Daniel, and Samson, and ... will not be in Heaven because they were not regenerated? Sorry, but that is not true. We know for sure that Moses and Abraham will be in Heaven, because they came to speak with Jesus when He was transfigured. And so, because we know they will be in Heaven with us, we also know that they have been given new life through Christ (regenerated). Did they receive that regeneration during their life? Or did they not receive it until they died? I believe that they received it during their lifetime.

Nothing in either of these passages in any way indicates that there was no regeneration in the Old Testament. They certainly indicate that there is a significant difference between the Old and New Covenants (having the Law written on our hearts, having the indwelling of the Spirit, having sin actually removed and not just rolled forward each year), but there is nothing here that points to regeneration starting with the New Covenant.

No I did not say that

I did state regeneration was a future reality based on scripture

Ezekiel 36:24–27 (NASB 2020) — 24 For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the lands; and I will bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB 2020) — 31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

which you have not addressed

 

[Doug Brents]

The preaching of John the Baptist does point to regeneration starting with the New Covenant. Baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit is one and the same as regeneration. While there seem to be indications that some select individuals received some form of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Psa 51:11), there is no indication that condition was at all universal or even common. The indwelling Holy Spirit is indeed a feature of the New Covenant and not of the Old Covenant. We know that the Comforter, the Paraclete, was not available to the apostles or anyone else before Pentecost (John 15:4-15).

Regeneration is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are correct that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not begin until after Jesus' resurrection. But that in no way correlates to there being no regeneration under the Old Covenant. Regeneration is receiving new life, and we know that the heroes of the faith under the Old Covenant were given new life for they are/will be in Heaven.

 

[TomL]

Regeneration is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are correct that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not begin until after Jesus' resurrection. But that in no way correlates to there being no regeneration under the Old Covenant. Regeneration is receiving new life, and we know that the heroes of the faith under the Old Covenant were given new life for they are/will be in Heaven.

Regeneration is by way of the Indwelling spirit

John 7:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


John 4:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[Doug Brents]

No I did not say that

That is the end result of what you are saying, whether you think it through or not. If there was no regeneration under the Old Covenant, then there will be none of the people who lived under the Old Covenant in Heaven.

I did state regeneration was a future reality based on scripture

Ezekiel 36:24–27 (NASB 2020) — 24 For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the lands; and I will bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB 2020) — 31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

which you have not addressed

I did address those passages. They have nothing to do with regeneration. They speak of the Word being written on our hearts, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and our sin actually being removed rather than just rolling it forward with the blood of goats and sheep each year, but they have absolutely nothing to do with generation.

 

[Jim]

Regeneration is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are correct that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not begin until after Jesus' resurrection. But that in no way correlates to there being no regeneration under the Old Covenant. Regeneration is receiving new life, and we know that the heroes of the faith under the Old Covenant were given new life for they are/will be in Heaven.

The heroes of the faith under the Old Covenant were forgiven and they are or will be in heaven. But there is no indication that regeneration was in any way a part of the Old Covenant.

 

[TomL]

That is the end result of what you are saying, whether you think it through or not. If there was no regeneration under the Old Covenant, then there will be none of the people who lived under the Old Covenant in Heaven.

I did address those passages. They have nothing to do with regeneration. They speak of the Word being written on our hearts, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and our sin actually being removed rather than just rolling it forward with the blood of goats and sheep each year, but they have absolutely nothing to do with generation.

You clearly have no idea what regeneration is then

A new heart effected by the Holy Spirit is regeneration

 

[Doug Brents]

Regeneration is by way of the Indwelling spirit

John 7:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


John 4:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Those passages speak of the indwelling Spirit being likened to an everlasting spring of water in our soul. But they do not make that spring equal to regeneration. Regeneration occurs before the indwelling can occur. The house must be swept clean before the new resident can move in. I point you to the parable in Matt 12:43-45. When the demon was cast out the house (the person's soul) was cleaned, swept, and purified, but no one new moved in. The person was regenerated, but they did not allow the Holy Spirit to move in and take up residence. So their soul was empty when the demon returned with friends, and the end was worse for him than it was in the beginning.

You clearly have no idea what regeneration is then

A new heart effected by the Holy Spirit is regeneration

Regeneration is new life, being born again. New life is received through the blood of Jesus in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). The Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sin, and then (AFTER NEW LIFE IS RECEIVED), He moves into the heart of the person newly born. His indwelling presence is a result of regeneration, not the cause of it.

 

[TomL]

Those passages speak of the indwelling Spirit being likened to an everlasting spring of water in our soul. But they do not make that spring equal to regeneration. Regeneration occurs before the indwelling can occur. The house must be swept clean before the new resident can move in. I point you to the parable in Matt 12:43-45. When the demon was cast out the house (the person's soul) was cleaned, swept, and purified, but no one new moved in. The person was regenerated, but they did not allow the Holy Spirit to move in and take up residence. So their soul was empty when the demon returned with friends, and the end was worse for him than it was in the beginning.

Regeneration is new life, being born again. New life is received through the blood of Jesus in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). The Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sin, and then (AFTER NEW LIFE IS RECEIVED), He moves into the heart of the person newly born. His indwelling presence is a result of regeneration, not the cause of it.

Of course they do

Regeneration brings new life

The indwelling spirit bring new life

did you not see

John 4:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Justification makes one clean

The spirit does not indwell an unclean heart

Regeneration. A biblical motif of salvation that emphasizes the rebirth or re-creation of fallen human beings by the indwelling Holy Spirit. One central biblical text depicting salvation as regeneration is Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus in which he emphasized the necessity of being “born again” (Jn 3:1–21). Pocket dictionary of Theological terms

The perfect tense “has given” denotes the resultant indwelling of the Spirit imparted at regeneration. In 3:24 use of the aorist tense asserted the historical

Bibliotheca Sacra: A Quarterly Published by Dallas Theological Seminary (Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary, 1955–1995).

The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of salvation to those whom he indwells. The indwelling of the Spirit is both corporate and individual; Christ’s church is his temple, as are individual Christians. In regeneration, the Spirit gives new life to the believer, birthing a new creation.

Susanne Calhoun, “The Spirit’s Indwelling,” in Lexham Survey of Theology (ed. Mark Ward et al.; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018).

Regeneration. That mighty work of the Holy Spirit of God whereby one is “delivered out of the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son of his love” (Col. 1:13; comp. 1 Pet. 2:9) is spoken of in John 3:5–8, as being “born of the Spirit.” Whosoever is thus begotten of God is conceived as a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), “created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph. 2:10), “the new man, who after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth” (Eph. 4:24). This mighty change is also conceived as being raised from the dead so as to “walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4); and even the quickening of our mortal bodies into the resurrection life is through the power of the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:11)

Milton S. Terry, Biblical Dogmatics: An Exposition of the Principal Doctrines of the Holy Scriptures (New York; Cincinnati: Eaton & Mains; Jennings & Graham, 1907), 499.


Regeneration is the divine action by which God renews the fallen creation so that it reflects his character.

For human beings, regeneration is the answer to the corruption of moral character caused by sin. It is essential for participation in the kingdom of God (John 3:3). At conversion, God grants the believer new life and a new identity in Christ. This event is so powerful that John refers to it as a new birth, a birth “from above” (John 3:3), while Paul refers to it as a “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). In either case, the change is brought about by the Holy Spirit, who comes to indwell the believer.

Brenda B. Colijn, “Regeneration,” in Lexham Survey of Theology (ed. Mark Ward et al.; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018).

 

[Doug Brents]

Of course they do

Regeneration brings new life

The indwelling spirit bring new life

did you not see

Yes, I see that you are getting things out of order. The Spirit does not move into the old, dead house. The house is made new (regenerated) before He moves in. The fact that He moves in shows that the house has already been made new (reborn/regenerated).

John 4:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Justification makes one clean

The spirit does not indwell an unclean heart

No justification is not

Being born again, being given life is not justification

Being made clean is synonymous with rebirth; when one is made clean he is reborn, regenerated, made a new creature. You just said that justification makes one clean. Yet you said earlier that being born again is not justification. You can't have it both ways.

 

[TomL]

Yes, I see that you are getting things out of order. The Spirit does not move into the old, dead house. The house is made new (regenerated) before He moves in. The fact that He moves in shows that the house has already been made new (reborn/regenerated).

Sorry but you err

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

forgiveness precedes regeneration - being made alive

Being made clean is synonymous with rebirth; when one is made clean he is reborn, regenerated, made a new creature. You just said that justification makes one clean. Yet you said earlier that being born again is not justification. You can't have it both ways.

Sorry justification provides forgiveness and makes clean which is symbolized by a washing with water

other than that you appear confused in stating

"You just said that justification makes one clean. Yet you said earlier that being born again is not justification. You can't have it both ways."

There were no two different ways