Your Views on The Trinity

[FreeInChrist]

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it?

Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it.

Did it ever occur to you that not everyone should know.

If everyone understood what in the word would faith be needed for.

And I want YOU to stop using this word..... Bible
There is no word called bible in the Holy Book. It is a word that is made up by men somewhere along the way.... and has been used to refer to that Holy Book
If you insist on adding words in theological talk then dont complain when others add the word Trinity in the talk on who Jesus said to baptise in....
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
What do you think the possible reason is that Christ Jesus, your and my savior would have instructed that....

Did you ever do a deep search on just that verse?

All three are to be named during baptism. NOT just in Jesus name alone or the Son....

Is Baptism not important ? Would it matter if it was done wrong? What say you?

This is a central point over any other reference in the Holy Book and is worthy to be looked into....

Jesus said that in Matt 28:19 this is the proper form.

FACT.... NO ONE listened to him until

Search Assist

The practice of baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit became popularized in the second century, although early Christians primarily baptized in the name of Jesus. This shift is often attributed to the influence of the Trinitarian formula found in Matthew 28:19.

So it took them until the 2nd century to actually read Matt and follow Jesus' orders.

Definitely worth investigation as to why Jesus said that.

 

[Peterlag]

Did it ever occur to you that not everyone should know.

If everyone understood what in the word would faith be needed for.

And I want YOU to stop using this word..... Bible
There is no word called bible in the Holy Book. It is a word that is made up by men somewhere along the way.... and has been used to refer to that Holy Book
If you insist on adding words in theological talk then dont complain when others add the word Trinity in the talk on who Jesus said to baptise in....
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
What do you think the possible reason is that Christ Jesus, your and my savior would have instructed that....

Did you ever do a deep search on just that verse?

All three are to be named during baptism. NOT just in Jesus name alone or the Son....

Is Baptism not important ? Would it matter if it was done wrong? What say you?

This is a central point over any other reference in the Holy Book and is worthy to be looked into....

Jesus said that in Matt 28:19 this is the proper form.

FACT.... NO ONE listened to him until

Search Assist

The practice of baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit became popularized in the second century, although early Christians primarily baptized in the name of Jesus. This shift is often attributed to the influence of the Trinitarian formula found in Matthew 28:19.

So it took them until the 2nd century to actually read Matt and follow Jesus' orders.

Definitely worth investigation as to why Jesus said that.

No it never occurred to me that God would keep something as important as the Trinity a mystery. Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Scriptures, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

 

[FreeInChrist]

No it never occurred to me that God would keep something as important as the Trinity a mystery. Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Scriptures, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

Ah @Peterlag,

For myself I never questioned the validity of the Trinity because when I was first going to confirmation classes I remember them talking and handing out papers and they may have issued bible verses to study , but the Trinity was taught in relationship to Jesus being the Son.... I never felt it was was some later invention that the Bible never actually says.

Even when I got interesting in reading the bible I never gave it a thought because there are words other then the Trinity and Bible that simply are not in there. So I started to read the bible... at work... and was told I could not understand what I was reading without a guide but I was slow... and I was allowed... and it still bever occurred to me with all the churches around like the Trinity United Methodist etc because it was always in from of my face.

But someone brought up a non belief and I kept right on in my self-studying (long before computers, or search assists, or even Ai... and did not have a Stongs at work but my mind was alert to things I had heard... things that did not make sense... such as
the boss who was predestined believing... NOT Calvin... who said everyone will be saved.... I asked even Hitler... and he said he believed so. And this one was one with very wandering hands in the work place... (I will explain no further) and I knew his wife well.... and for far too long it was almost a daily thing to fight him off... but he was certain of going to heaven....

So once when I saw it .... it is right on the surface of the text, not hidden at all.

Here are five of the clearest places that leave no room for doubt. (no piecing together required):

1. Matthew 28:19“Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” One name (one God), yet three distinct Persons listed. Remember, I asked you why Jesus would have instructed this with the 3 of them in the important sacrament of Baptism.............

2. 2 Corinthians 13:14“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”.... Paul puts all three on the same level in a single blessing. I think we should change the name of the bible to Paul's book. At least his name is in there.

3. John 1:1 + 1:14“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”→ The Son is with God (distinct) and is God (same being).

4. John 10:30 + 10:33Jesus: “I and the Father are one.” Jews picked up stones: “You, being a man, make yourself God.”→ Jesus claimed full deity; the Jews understood perfectly.

5. John 14–16(Jesus’ own words)

The Father sends the Son (14:24–26)

The Son prays to the Father (17:1–5)

The Father and Son send the Spirit (15:26; 16:7)

The Spirit glorifies the Son (16:14)→ Real personal interaction that only makes sense with three distinct Persons.

The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible (just like “omnipotence” or “incarnation” aren’t), but the reality is taught on page after page. The early church didn’t invent it — they simply put one word on what the Scriptures already shout.


And yes, exactly how one God is three Persons is a mystery — but that one God is three Persons is not a mystery; it’s what the Bible plainly says.

 

[charismaticlady]

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

I see Isaiah 9:6 as talking of the Child, and what Jesus will be called. He is God. There was no man that was pure enough to be a sacrifice for the sin of the world, so God came Himself, but had to have a human body that could die seeing as God cannot die.

My post to you wasn't about the Trinity, but about the Son being called God by the Father God.

 

[mikesw]

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

The crazy thing is how the unitarians try so hard to avoid recognizing Jesus as Lord God. They try so hard to wiggle out of that.

I can see how certain limited reading of scripture can lead one to think of Christ Jesus as only human. However, the broader text shows his pre-existence and divinity. Any argument by unitarians has to focus on those passages that go beyond Jesus simply being human.

 

[Runningman]

No it never occurred to me that God would keep something as important as the Trinity a mystery. Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Scriptures, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

Trinitarianism started the same way the other post-Biblical doctrines did. They read something in the Scripture, misunderstood it, and it made a doctrine out of it. Things like the trinity, hypostatic union, original sin, the immortal soul, purgatory, the rapture, eternal conscious torment in hell, and others are not formalized in the Bible. It's just one on a long list of heresies.

 

[Runningman]

And yes, exactly how one God is three Persons is a mystery — but that one God is three Persons is not a mystery; it’s what the Bible plainly says.

No where does the Bible plainly say God is three persons. Why do you supposed no one in the Bible ever shared your opinions? I believe it's because they didn't believe in a trinity, not even a binity. The evidence is that they believed God is the Father and that Jesus is a human Son of God who was anointed, empowered, exalted, etc.

 

[Capbook]

I read it and gave you the best response.

Do that mean that there's no other verse outside Titus 2:13 to support your interpretation that the "glorious appearing" refer to God the Father?
If you can't provide, it would confirm that the glorious appearing of God And Savior, exclusively refer to Jesus.

 

[Capbook]

Yes, the Bible says the First and Last died. So saying Jesus is God because of being the First and Last isn't a very convincing argument. I know that God can't die, do you?

Still you did not support your phrase "the First and the Last died" as Biblical.
If you go on with your interpretation, you also make the Alpha and Omega died.

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Your support is not in one phrase, it refers to Jesus human flesh that died.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[Peterlag]

Do that mean that there's no other verse outside Titus 2:13 to support your interpretation that the "glorious appearing" refer to God the Father?
If you can't provide, it would confirm that the glorious appearing of God And Savior, exclusively refer to Jesus.

You're quoting a bad verse and asking me to confirm it. Again, for the third time... there are 22 other translations that refer to the glory of God and not the glorious one appearing.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

 

[Peterlag]

Trinitarianism started the same way the other post-Biblical doctrines did. They read something in the Scripture, misunderstood it, and it made a doctrine out of it. Things like the trinity, hypostatic union, original sin, the immortal soul, purgatory, the rapture, eternal conscious torment in hell, and others are not formalized in the Bible. It's just one on a long list of heresies.

It was an eye opening for me when I learned who were the first guys to give us the original sin. It was not the Apostles. Yep... Catholics again.

 

[Peterlag]

The crazy thing is how the unitarians try so hard to avoid recognizing Jesus as Lord God. They try so hard to wiggle out of that.

I can see how certain limited reading of scripture can lead one to think of Christ Jesus as only human. However, the broader text shows his pre-existence and divinity. Any argument by unitarians has to focus on those passages that go beyond Jesus simply being human.

There are no broader text showing Jesus as God. Not even a slimmer text.

 

[Peterlag]

I see Isaiah 9:6 as talking of the Child, and what Jesus will be called. He is God. There was no man that was pure enough to be a sacrifice for the sin of the world, so God came Himself, but had to have a human body that could die seeing as God cannot die.

My post to you wasn't about the Trinity, but about the Son being called God by the Father God.

Isaiah 9:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. “a child will be born.” The Hebrew text reads “a child has been born... a son has been given.” The Hebrew verb about being born is a perfect passive and is most literally translated “has been born.” Although some scholars say this prophecy is about Hezekiah, and in fact it may reflect upon him in part, the prophecy is more completely about the Messiah. It's common in the Hebrew idiom to write about something that will happen in the future as if it had happened in the past, and this is referred to by many scholars as the idiom of the “prophetic perfect.” Also, the prophetic perfect occurs very often in prophecy, especially in Isaiah.

“The Mighty God is an Extraordinary Advisor” The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor” in most English Bibles. However, a better way to understand it is as a theophoric name given to the Messiah which describes God, not the Messiah. It's noteworthy that if Isaiah 9:6 was a proof that Jesus is God, nothing is said about it in the New Testament.

“Mighty God/Warrior God” el gibbor is the same name attributed to Yahweh (the true God) subsequently in Isaiah 10:21, as well as in all the other biblical occurrences Deuteronomy 10:17; Jeremiah 32:18). So, in the other places where this same phrase is used in the singular, it's referring to Yahweh, not to anyone else. So, in every occurrence of el gibbor, it refers to God the Father—Yahweh. This provides strong evidence that el gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 likely also refers to Yahweh.

Although some Trinitarians attempt to see this text as teaching the Messiah’s Deity, many do not consider that the text taken consistently in their framework would actually be calling the child “The Everlasting Father.” That would then make Jesus the “Everlasting Father” which would be Modalism, where God is strictly a unitary being who exists at different times in different modes (i.e., the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son). The Athanasian Creed, which is considered as orthodox today states that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” but if Isaiah 9:6 says the Son is the Father, then it would be doing that and not teaching the modern definition of the Trinity.

 

[Peterlag]

Ah @Peterlag,

For myself I never questioned the validity of the Trinity because when I was first going to confirmation classes I remember them talking and handing out papers and they may have issued bible verses to study , but the Trinity was taught in relationship to Jesus being the Son.... I never felt it was was some later invention that the Bible never actually says.

Even when I got interesting in reading the bible I never gave it a thought because there are words other then the Trinity and Bible that simply are not in there. So I started to read the bible... at work... and was told I could not understand what I was reading without a guide but I was slow... and I was allowed... and it still bever occurred to me with all the churches around like the Trinity United Methodist etc because it was always in from of my face.

But someone brought up a non belief and I kept right on in my self-studying (long before computers, or search assists, or even Ai... and did not have a Stongs at work but my mind was alert to things I had heard... things that did not make sense... such as
the boss who was predestined believing... NOT Calvin... who said everyone will be saved.... I asked even Hitler... and he said he believed so. And this one was one with very wandering hands in the work place... (I will explain no further) and I knew his wife well.... and for far too long it was almost a daily thing to fight him off... but he was certain of going to heaven....

So once when I saw it .... it is right on the surface of the text, not hidden at all.

Here are five of the clearest places that leave no room for doubt. (no piecing together required):

1. Matthew 28:19“Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” One name (one God), yet three distinct Persons listed. Remember, I asked you why Jesus would have instructed this with the 3 of them in the important sacrament of Baptism.............

2. 2 Corinthians 13:14“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”.... Paul puts all three on the same level in a single blessing. I think we should change the name of the bible to Paul's book. At least his name is in there.

3. John 1:1 + 1:14“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”→ The Son is with God (distinct) and is God (same being).

4. John 10:30 + 10:33Jesus: “I and the Father are one.” Jews picked up stones: “You, being a man, make yourself God.”→ Jesus claimed full deity; the Jews understood perfectly.

5. John 14–16(Jesus’ own words)

The Father sends the Son (14:24–26)

The Son prays to the Father (17:1–5)

The Father and Son send the Spirit (15:26; 16:7)

The Spirit glorifies the Son (16:14)→ Real personal interaction that only makes sense with three distinct Persons.

The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible (just like “omnipotence” or “incarnation” aren’t), but the reality is taught on page after page. The early church didn’t invent it — they simply put one word on what the Scriptures already shout.


And yes, exactly how one God is three Persons is a mystery — but that one God is three Persons is not a mystery; it’s what the Bible plainly says.

confirmation classes? Are you Catholic?

 

[Cyrus]

Then there is the concept of perichoresis means that not only do the three members of the Godhead interpenetrate each other and supply their life to one another, but that all three are involved in all of the works of God. Certain of these works are primarily the doing of one of these rather than the others, but all participate to some degree in what is done.

So, while the work of redemption and specifically atonement was accomplished by the incarnate Son, the Father and the Spirit were also involved in some sense. Similarly, while sanctification is primarily the work of the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son are also involved.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I understand... but he also is confused by which ever translation he prefers.... which is none of the following.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New King James Version
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NASB 1977
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Legacy Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Contemporary English Version
We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Good News Translation
as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.

International Standard Version
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

NET Bible
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

New Heart English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Majority Text Translations

Majority Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

New Revised Standard Version
while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Godbey New Testament
looking for the blessed hope even the appearing of the glory of our great God and our Saviour Christ Jesus;

Haweis New Testament
expecting the blessed hope, and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

YET..... Jimmys translation says it that way..... but they are confused in and of themselves.... (Not my choice)

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And the Catholics...........

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

Catholic Public Domain Version
looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Which to me, he does not seem to be cut from a former alter boy. Could be wrong.... I have been surprised before.

However... it certainly says in every translation Our Gret God or The Great God and our Savior are one in the same...

See... he is wrong

He can't find what he wants to find so he doesn't make a choice.

 

[FreeInChrist]

confirmation classes? Are you Catholic?

Presbyterian. Born and raised.

Followed the "plan" until I learned differently.

Baby baptised, but in the Presbyterian faith the parents as well as the entire congregation is charge with making that babe grow from an infant to the age of understanding within the beliefs of the church.
That is why it never bothered me much when I learned the truth about Santa, because we were celebrating Jesus' birthday

And then when I was about 12ish the church had actual clsses for a few months for those who were going to be joining the church and the classes were all about Jesus.... And what hew did on the cross for us... and upon completion of the classes
the next Sunday we all, from the class, sat in the first pew of the church and after agreeing we believed in what Jesus
had done for us we received our first Holy Communion.

NOT T ALL LIKE THE RCC>

These days the kids, to complete their course, have to write their OWN mission statement, based on what they learned.

My ancestor or one of then was a Vicar in the Church of England and he got into a dispute with them over baptism and left the church, moved to Scotland, Became Presbyterian and a minister, came to America, I believe NewEngland... made his way to NYC then eventually to Virginia and he built his church... Presbyterian... and from that point forward all blood people from him were Presbyterian...

I still am not because I hold their beliefs... I do not... but because I do not feel strongly that there is any "single" church that
is the "correct" church with "correct " beliefs... and when I listen to my minister and he prays for all truly it could be in any
church of the land... IMO

 

[civic]

Still you did not support your phrase "the First and the Last died" as Biblical.
If you go on with your interpretation, you also make the Alpha and Omega died.

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Your support is not in one phrase, it refers to Jesus human flesh that died.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

its the stumbling block for uni's since the same One who is the First and the Last is also the Beginning/End, Alpha/Omega, the Almighty !

And we know the Father did not die so it can only be the Son.

end of discussion for the uni as their ship has sunk 10,000 feet under the sea.

 

[civic]

He doesn't believe Jesus is a savior of anyone. You're dealing with a man that has no semblance of Christianity. He doesn't appeal to Christ for anything.

Correct since we know YHWH on many occasions declared He alone was the only Savior.

Yet Jesus is called the Savior in the N.T. many times and not once is the " Father " ever called Savior in the N.T.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Presbyterian. Born and raised.

Followed the "plan" until I learned differently.

Baby baptised, but in the Presbyterian faith the parents as well as the entire congregation is charge with making that babe grow from an infant to the age of understanding within the beliefs of the church.
That is why it never bothered me much when I learned the truth about Santa, because we were celebrating Jesus' birthday

And then when I was about 12ish the church had actual clsses for a few months for those who were going to be joining the church and the classes were all about Jesus.... And what hew did on the cross for us... and upon completion of the classes
the next Sunday we all, from the class, sat in the first pew of the church and after agreeing we believed in what Jesus
had done for us we received our first Holy Communion.

NOT T ALL LIKE THE RCC>

These days the kids, to complete their course, have to write their OWN mission statement, based on what they learned.

My ancestor or one of then was a Vicar in the Church of England and he got into a dispute with them over baptism and left the church, moved to Scotland, Became Presbyterian and a minister, came to America, I believe NewEngland... made his way to NYC then eventually to Virginia and he built his church... Presbyterian... and from that point forward all blood people from him were Presbyterian...

I still am not because I hold their beliefs... I do not... but because I do not feel strongly that there is any "single" church that
is the "correct" church with "correct " beliefs... and when I listen to my minister and he prays for all truly it could be in any
church of the land... IMO

Presbyterians generally believe in congregationalism and the individual priesthood of the believe in having direct access to God. Which makes them very "independent" at times. I'm generally the same way apart from the ego driven concepts of individual election taught in various flavors found among Protestants.

I haven't "fit in" most anywhere in a very very long time. People can't usually tolerate me very long because I don't mind saying I disagree.