Your Views on The Trinity

[praise_yeshua]

Correct since we know YHWH on many occasions declared He alone was the only Savior.

Yet Jesus is called the Savior in the N.T. many times and not once is the " Father " ever called Savior in the N.T.

Yep....

The "rider of the white horse"....

Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.

If you research the context of "YHWH" you end up here in Revelation 19:12. It is the lost name of Messiah that comes out of the origins of the great "I AM" from Exodus. The origins of the tongue of Moses. The language of all the earth that once filled this world.

The One and Only Son "Rev 19:13 clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God."

A name lost to this world "among men" until Jesus Christ Himself epitomized fulness of Deity in becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

Some reference this as the "Tetragrammaton". The "vanity" of mankind in forgetting God.

The "third commandment"

Exo 20:7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

At least that is my penny.

 

[civic]

Yep....

The "rider of the white horse"....

Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.

If you research the context of "YHWH" you end up here in Revelation 19:12. It is the lost name of Messiah that comes out of the origins of the great "I AM" from Exodus. The origins of the tongue of Moses. The language of all the earth that once filled this world.

The One and Only Son "Rev 19:13 clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God."

A name lost to this world "among men" until Jesus Christ Himself epitomized fulness of Deity in becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

Some reference this as the "Tetragrammaton". The "vanity" of mankind in forgetting God.

The "third commandment"

Exo 20:7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

At least that is my penny.

I love this and we can add that the great " I AM " of the O.T. promised He would one day dwell and walk among His people.

And we know Jesus said no man has seen the Father for He dwells in unapproachable light and is invisible.

So even if they deny it has already taken place with Jesus they are still up a creek without a paddle and make those promised out to be a lie.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Presbyterians generally believe in congregationalism and the individual priesthood of the believe in having direct access to God. Which makes them very "independent" at times. I'm generally the same way apart from the ego driven concepts of individual election taught in various flavors found among Protestants.

I haven't "fit in" most anywhere in a very very long time. People can't usually tolerate me very long because I don't mind saying I disagree.

Yep... Those Presbyterians are a strange lot.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yep... Those Presbyterians are a strange lot.

I resemble that remark....

The KJV uses the word peculiar... In 1st Peter 2:9

Waylen Jennings said "I've always been crazy but it keep me from going insane".

 

[FreeInChrist]

I resemble that remark....

The KJV uses the word peculiar... In 1st Peter 2:9

Well, if anyone should have known... it was Jimmy.

Waylen Jennings said "I've always been crazy but it keep me from going insane".

This quote should be my signature......

 

[Runningman]

Still you did not support your phrase "the First and the Last died" as Biblical.
If you go on with your interpretation, you also make the Alpha and Omega died.

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Your support is not in one phrase, it refers to Jesus human flesh that died.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Revelation 1:17,18 is still there, even though you don't seem to see it. The First and the Last is talking, he said he was dead, but is now alive. Means he died. You do realize that Jesus died don't you? The First and the Last is a human who died, not an immortal God who died.

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

 

[Runningman]

It was an eye opening for me when I learned who were the first guys to give us the original sin. It was not the Apostles. Yep... Catholics again.

Yeah, Martin Luther sure did have a lot to say with his 95 theses really have so little change. Not many major differences between Catholic and Protestant philosophy.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah, Martin Luther sure did have a lot to say with his 95 theses really have so little change. Not many major differences between Catholic and Protestant philosophy.

Boy do you have that right. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the four gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

 

[mikesw]

Boy do you have that right. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the four gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

Whoa. Who else reads the 4 gospels than Christians? It is not typically read by Buddhists and not even Jews. That oddity is another thing to add to the unitarian list of doctrines.

 

[Runningman]

Boy do you have that right. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the four gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

Yeah. My neighbor used to come by and talk about the Bible a lot. I would mostly just listen. He isn't the kind of person who was looking for a debate, he just wanted to share something important to him and he was always witnessing to people. He told me once that he won't go to any of the churches around here. I asked why and he said he's afraid they would get him sent to hell and I said "me too!" So I was trying to figure out what he believes exactly and he told me he likes Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel, well me too! Arnold Murray is a Unitarian, not exactly a Biblical Unitarian like you or I, but a Unitarian. You would probably like his shows, they're all old though.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah. My neighbor used to come by and talk about the Bible a lot. I would mostly just listen. He isn't the kind of person who was looking for a debate, he just wanted to share something important to him and he was always witnessing to people. He told me once that he won't go to any of the churches around here. I asked why and he said he's afraid they would get him sent to hell and I said "me too!" So I was trying to figure out what he believes exactly and he told me he likes Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel, well me too! Arnold Murray is a Unitarian, not exactly a Biblical Unitarian like you or I, but a Unitarian. You would probably like his shows, they're all old though.

The trinity for me is just a spin off from my thing which is walking in the spirit. The trinity comes in to play because I believe you cannot walk in the spirit if you do not even know what the spirit is. The trinitarians no nothing about what the spirit is or who Jesus is. So they are lost in that field. Thus, they walk in themselves and call it Christian.

 

[Peterlag]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God's nature is a mystery...​

or that God's identity is a mystery. In fact, it says the opposite. Jesus says that he came to the earth to make his Father known to people. He came to make his God and Father's nature and characteristics known.

Jesus identified his Father in John 17:1-3 as the only true God.

Jesus imitated his Father's characteristics so that people would know what his God and Father are like. This is why Jesus is called the image of God in Colossians 1:15. Jesus is reflecting his Father like an image in a mirror. He's showing us what God looks like. Not in a physical sense, but in a behavioral sense. Jesus is showing us what God behaves like. He's showing us that God is loving, caring, compassionate, kind, just and forgiving.

cc: @FreeInChrist

 

[charismaticlady]

It's noteworthy that if Isaiah 9:6 was a proof that Jesus is God, nothing is said about it in the New Testament.

To me when Jesus said, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father, is showing Himself as the triune being of God. Colossians 2:9 shows He embodies the Godhead. Also, when He said, "before Abraham was, "I AM" He is stating He is the God of the burning bush who was God. Not three persons, but all in one. Just as the born again of the Spirit Christian has the seed of the Father in them making them unable to commit sins unto death, Jesus was CONCEIVED with that same seed. This is how we are conformed to the image of Christ. Romans 8:29.

A triune being is mind, emotions and body. The Father is the mind of Christ. Just as we have the mind of Christ. The Spirit is the power of Jesus. Just as the Spirit gives the born again power over sin and gifts of power. And His body of as human allowed Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice to destroy Satan's hold on all who believe in Him.

 

[charismaticlady]

Boy do you have that right. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the four gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

and @Runningman

The worst thing the Reformation changed from Catholicism was about sin. Catholics recognized the two types of sin and named them appropriately: mortal (sins unto death) and venial (sins not unto death). The Reformation started the myth that "sin is sin" making them equal. But Jesus freed our nature from sins unto death completely when we receive the seed of the Father and are born again of the Spirit. Then Jesus continues to cleanse and mature our fruit, the sins not unto death, as that is the type of sin that is continually cleansed as we abide in Jesus and walk in the Spirit in 1 John 1:7.

 

[Peterlag]

To me when Jesus said, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father, is showing Himself as the triune being of God. Colossians 2:9 shows He embodies the Godhead. Also, when He said, "before Abraham was, "I AM" He is stating He is the God of the burning bush who was God. Not three persons, but all in one. Just as the born again of the Spirit Christian has the seed of the Father in them making them unable to commit sins unto death, Jesus was CONCEIVED with that same seed. This is how we are conformed to the image of Christ. Romans 8:29.

A triune being is mind, emotions and body. The Father is the mind of Christ. Just as we have the mind of Christ. The Spirit is the power of Jesus. Just as the Spirit gives the born again power over sin and gifts of power. And His body of as human allowed Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice to destroy Satan's hold on all who believe in Him.

John 14:9 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The key to understanding "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" is to know that the phrase “seen the Father” does not refer to seeing with one’s physical eyes but figuratively to “knowing the Father.” Jesus knew God, not because he lived and talked with God in heaven before his birth on earth, but because God revealed Himself more clearly to Jesus than He had to anyone else. Jesus made this clear in other teachings when he said “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does…” (John 5:20).

In both Hebrew and Greek, words that are translated “see” throughout the Bible often mean “to know or realize.” The Hebrew word ra’ah is used for both seeing with the eyes and knowing something, or perceiving it (Genesis 16:4; Exodus 32:1; Numbers 20:29). Similarly, the Greek word horaō (ὁράω) translated “see” in John 1:18, 6:46; and 3 John 1:11, can mean “to see with the eyes” or “to see with the mind, to perceive, to know.” Even in English, one of the definitions for “see” is “to know or understand.” For example, when two people are discussing something, one might say to the other, “I see what you mean.”

The usage of “see” as it pertains to “knowing” is found in many places in the New Testament. For example, Jesus said to Philip, “…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;…” (John 14:9). Here again the word “see” is used to indicate “knowing.” Anyone who knew Jesus (not just those who “saw” him) would know the Father. In fact, Jesus had made that clear two verses earlier when he said to Philip, “If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him, and have seen him” (John 14:7). In this verse, Jesus says that those who know him have “seen” the Father.

 

[Runningman]

The trinity for me is just a spin off from my thing which is walking in the spirit. The trinity comes in to play because I believe you cannot walk in the spirit if you do not even know what the spirit is. The trinitarians no nothing about what the spirit is or who Jesus is. So they are lost in that field. Thus, they walk in themselves and call it Christian.

I understand it's their religion and they can dress it up as spirituality and piety, just like all of the other sects in trinitarianism do, but no matter how sincere those beliefs may be, the doctrine of the trinity comes off as an extremely liberal interpretation of the Bible. I mean, imagine you needed to write a book report in school again and rather than representing the book the way the author did, you reinterpreted everything and introduced ideas foreign, antithetical, and contradictory to the books itself. The Bible isn't a book for making personal philosophy, but rather an instruction manual already complete and ready to follow in the way it has been provided, but trinitarians couldn't discuss their religion using only the vocabulary of the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

and @Runningman

The worst thing the Reformation changed from Catholicism was about sin. Catholics recognized the two types of sin and named them appropriately: mortal (sins unto death) and venial (sins not unto death). The Reformation started the myth that "sin is sin" making them equal. But Jesus freed our nature from sins unto death completely when we receive the seed of the Father and are born again of the Spirit. Then Jesus continues to cleanse and mature our fruit, the sins not unto death, as that is the type of sin that is continually cleansed as we abide in Jesus and walk in the Spirit in 1 John 1:7.

Yeah Catholics and Protestants have different views on sin, but I tend to agree more with the Catholics about sin, though not completely. I just like how serious they take it. I don't agree with their original sin idea, though. I also don't agree with confession to a priest about sin, but I do agree about confessing to Father when people sin as long as the real intent of the prayer is a genuine attempt to repent. I know God doesn't like lip service and so we need to really see ourselves in an honest way and not make ourselves better than we actually are in His presence. I lean more toward the Catholic view of absolution, grace, and salvation as well aside for their requirement for water baptism/sprinkling. So I am not saying you all are just flat wrong about everything, but I will harp on the trinity since it's a big one in my view.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah Catholics and Protestants have different views on sin, but I tend to agree more with the Catholics about sin, though not completely. I just like how serious they take it. I don't agree with their original sin idea, though. I also don't agree with confession to a priest about sin, but I do agree about confessing to Father when people sin as long as the real intent of the prayer is a genuine attempt to repent. I know God doesn't like lip service and so we need to really see ourselves in an honest way and not make ourselves better than we actually are in His presence. I lean more toward the Catholic view of absolution, grace, and salvation as well aside for their requirement for water baptism/sprinkling. So I am not saying you all are just flat wrong about everything, but I will harp on the trinity since it's a big one in my view.

The Catholics in my view have never been right about anything. One of my gauges is if the Catholics believe it. Then that's a huge red flag to start me looking at it. One of my Bible teachers put it this way...

Christians believe their sins are forgiven when they are born again up to that point, but must run to God to confess and repent their new sins every time they sin after becoming a Christian. The belief is that you will either be lost, or on your way to hell, or at the very least God will not fellowship with you, and He certainly will not answer your prayers if you are found with an unconfessed sin. Such a concept would mean everybody would be on their way to hell because there is not a person on this earth who does not have either a known or an unknown unconfessed sin. Now if this new sin just means the loss of a relationship with God, which would include unanswered prayers. Then God would not have a single person on this earth qualified to receive an answer to prayer or to be able to fellowship with Him.

 

[Peterlag]

If Thomas had called Jesus “my God” he would have been the only person in the Bible to ever have addressed Jesus that way.

• • Not Peter.
  • Not John.
  • Not Mary.
  • Not Stephen.
  • Not Paul.
  • Not a single believer in Acts.

Which raises the obvious question:
If Jesus was God and His followers knew it, why does no one else ever address Him as such?
John 20:28 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. “My Lord and my God” can easily be understood that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

 

[mikesw]

If Thomas had called Jesus “my God” he would have been the only person in the Bible to ever have addressed Jesus that way.

• • Not Peter.
  • Not John.
  • Not Mary.
  • Not Stephen.
  • Not Paul.
  • Not a single believer in Acts.

Which raises the obvious question:
If Jesus was God and His followers knew it, why does no one else ever address Him as such?
John 20:28 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. “My Lord and my God” can easily be understood that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

hmm. do i accept Peterlag's weak argument or scriptures? I think I will trust what John 1 says and what Thomas said more that Peterlag. Is something wrong with my choice?