The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Here's how you can prove me wrong. Name one person (other than Jesus) who actually followed the law. If all anyone has to do is choose to follow it, then surely someone did.
Your views on human beings having a sin nature
- Thread starter Obadiah
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Here's how you can prove me wrong. Name one person (other than Jesus) who actually followed the law. If all anyone has to do is choose to follow it, then surely someone did.
Johann
Well-known member
11”For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12
It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.”
30:11-14 YHWH's will for Israel was not impossible (cf. Deut. 28:29). This verse seems to depreciate the reformers doctrine of “total depravity.” There are several places in the OT where human resistence to sin is possible (e.g., Gen. 4:7).
The church picks up on Genesis 3 as the origin of sin in mankind, while many rabbis pick up on Genesis 6 as the source of the conflict.
As Christianity asserts the fallenness of all creation, including humanity, Judaism asserts the basic goodness of humanity. For them the evil is in the choice, not the basic nature.
However, it seems to me that moral accountability is based on the real possibility of comprehending God's will and the ability to act on it. Without the possibility of appropriate action, divine accountability is inappropriate! Can I be held responsible for that which I cannot do?
30:12 “'Who will go up to heaven'“ Paul uses this in Rom. 10:6-9. It possibly reflects the Sumerian legend of Etana, but probably relates to the Hebrew view of God's sovereignty.
There are several VERBS used in an imperatival sense in this verse (according to OT Parsing Guide):
1. “to get it” - BDB 542, KB 534, Qal IMPERFECT, but JUSSIVE in meaning
2. “make us hear” - BDB 1033, KB 1570, Hiphil IMPERFECT, but JUSSIVE in meaning
3. “we may observe it” - BDB 793, KB 889, Qal IMPERFECT, but COHORTATIVE in meaning
30:13 “beyond the sea” Some see this as related to the Babylonian flood account called the Gilgamesh Epic, but it probably relates to the Jewish fears of sailing or a metaphor of the ends of the earth.
30:14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart” This refers to YHWH's revealed covenant. The ancients read Scripture aloud! They had to appropriately respond inwardly to what they had heard (i.e., read themselves or read aloud).
“that you may observe it” Man must make the decision. It is in his ability to do so. God initiates but mankind must respond and continue to respond in repentance, faith, and obedience!
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Same response from me: Here's how you can prove me wrong about man's inability. Name one person (other than Jesus) who actually followed the law. If all anyone has to do is choose to follow it, then surely someone did.
civic
Well-known member
many were righteous before the Lord in the NT
Johann
Well-known member
Too many Imperatives in Scriptures in the Pauline epistles brother-although I agree-OUR boule and thelema should NOT act independently and apart from Christ Jesus since that would be a caricature. I like how Wuest said it-Our will should be wholly swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ.
The ego eimi should be dethroned AS we are being led BY the Spirit-how can we be led by the Spirit if we are not wholly yielded? If our will is not wholly yielded?
Time has been shortened and we are commanded to redeem the precious, little time we have.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's not an answer to my question. Deuteronomy is all about the law. If it is possible for men "to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments" and live, then who, apart from Jesus, has done so?
Johann
Well-known member
No one-your point?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
They're arguing that we have the ability to follow the law. If we have that ability, then surely someone other than Jesus must have done so.
Johann
Well-known member
Are you aware of the Imperatives in the Scriptures @The Rogue Tomato? From Yeshua to us? Why would Jesus give us Imperatives and not the ability to do it?
And is this thread not about --Your views on human beings having a sin nature?
Not facetious here.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It depends on the imperatives and the persons to whom they are given. As Christians, we are able to do things we couldn't do before we were saved.
But as for Deuteronomy and the law, the imperatives were given to make men aware of their sin and their inability to obey without God. Jesus used the same kind of imperative here:
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
We know that this man couldn't have kept the commandments as he said, but Jesus didn't approach his condition that way. Jesus purposely gave him the ONE COMMAND that Jesus knew he could not follow.
Johann
Well-known member
Right here I concur with you-wholeheartedly. I.e. the above sentence.
Yes that is it
I do not have to do nothing other than quote the passage which does not call for perfection in law keeping
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB 2020) — 11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, 16 in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
In other words, you can't name one person (other than Jesus) who actually followed the law. That nullifies your interpretation that we have the ability to do so because the verse says, "that you may follow it".
Johann
Well-known member
And to add-notice the Subjunctive Clause.
Good morning TomL,
I wonder who has chosen life without the grace of GOD, HIS gift of faith?
And where is the proof that GOD calls the reprobate to choose faith, not because they can so choose to do so, but to prove to the sinful people of HIS kingdom that they cannot do so and so must be left to GOD's judgement as they are condemned already, Jn 3:18, for having never believed in His name, ie, accepted Him as their saviour?
When were they condemned?
Johann
Well-known member
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
1 ) "He that believeth on him is not condemned," (ho pisteuon eis auton ou krinetai) "The one who trusts in him is not condemned or judged," is not under sentence, awaiting execution. He has been acquitted of all condemnatory charges who trusts in Jesus Christ; Nor shall the believer ever be condemned in the same manner again, Joh_5:24; Rom_3:24-25; Rom_3:28; Rom_4:5. There exists no condemnation to the one who trusts in Him, and Him alone, for redemption, Rom_8:1-39; Eph_1:7; Eph_2:8-10.
2) "But he that believeth not is condemned already," (ho me pisteuon ede kekritai) "The one who does not believe (in him) has already been judged," as a lost, perishing, condemned sinner, a child of wrath, having no hope and without God in the world, Joh_2:15-16; Luk_13:3; Luk_13:5; Luk_19:10; Eph_2:3; Eph_2:12; Eph_4:18.
When?
κέκριται
Transliteration: kekritai
Morphology: V-RIM/P-3S
Verb - Perfect Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G2919 (κρίνω)
Meaning: (a) to judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, (b) to decide, to think (it) good.
3) "Because he hath not believed," (hoti me pepisteuken) "Because he has not believed or trusted," Joh_8:24. He has not acknowledged that he is a lost, perishing, condemned criminal against an holy God and His Divine law, or believed that Jesus as God's holy Son died for his personal redemption, Rom_1:16; Rom_14:11-12; Luk_13:3.
4) "In the name of the only begotten Son of God." (eis to tou monogenous hiou tou theou) "Into the name of the only begotten Son or heir-redeemer of God," Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:18; Gal_4:4-5. There is salvation in none other name, Act_4:12; Col_3:17.
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right here
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB 2020) — 11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, 16 in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
did you imagine there were no reprobates in Israel
This teaches that they were given an easy choice; it does not prove that they were able to choose to do right since they might have been given the choice to prove they cannot choose GOD, even when it is sooo easy, so their judgement, their condemnation to damnation already, Jn 3:18, is righteous...
Johann
Well-known member
1 ) "He that believeth on him is not condemned," (ho pisteuon eis auton ou krinetai) "The one who trusts in him is not condemned or judged," is not under sentence, awaiting execution. He has been acquitted of all condemnatory charges who trusts in Jesus Christ; Nor shall the believer ever be condemned in the same manner again, Joh_5:24; Rom_3:24-25; Rom_3:28; Rom_4:5. There exists no condemnation to the one who trusts in Him, and Him alone, for redemption, Rom_8:1-39; Eph_1:7; Eph_2:8-10.
2) "But he that believeth not is condemned already," (ho me pisteuon ede kekritai) "The one who does not believe (in him) has already been judged," as a lost, perishing, condemned sinner, a child of wrath, having no hope and without God in the world, Joh_2:15-16; Luk_13:3; Luk_13:5; Luk_19:10; Eph_2:3; Eph_2:12; Eph_4:18.
3) "Because he hath not believed," (hoti me pepisteuken) "Because he has not believed or trusted," Joh_8:24. He has not acknowledged that he is a lost, perishing, condemned criminal against an holy God and His Divine law, or believed that Jesus as God's holy Son died for his personal redemption, Rom_1:16; Rom_14:11-12; Luk_13:3.
4) "In the name of the only begotten Son of God." (eis to tou monogenous hiou tou theou) "Into the name of the only begotten Son or heir-redeemer of God," Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:18; Gal_4:4-5. There is salvation in none other name, Act_4:12; Col_3:17.
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