Worshipping The Son

[praise_yeshua]

This should be interesting because no matter which way it is answered the result favors trinitarianism, not unitarianism. Its a lose lose for them.

Absolutely. No matter how you look at it. They devalue the Son.

 

[civic]

Absolutely. No matter how you look at it. They devalue the Son.

And Jesus own words contradict that position. He declared one who is greater than Moses is among them and they rejected His claims as blasphemy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And Jesus own words contradict that position. He declared one who is greater than Moses is among them and they rejected His claims as blasphemy.

I haven't seen any of them actually deal with what I wrote in the OP. @Matthias has the least tenable position of them all.

 

[synergy]

As a man, didn’t he act as a unitarian does?

Never. He declared that he is the "I Am" of the OT and commended Thomas with the phrase "you have believed" when Thomas addressed Jesus as "my God". A unitarian Jesus would not even think of that, let alone do that.

 

[synergy]

The two books I alluded to are:

1. Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church. It was written by Harold O.J. Brown (a Protestant). He was writing specifically to and for people like me, whom he hoped to persuade to return to historical orthodox trinitarianism. I highly recommend it to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

2. The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity. It was written by Edmund J. Fortman (a Catholic) in defense of the Trinity. I also highly recommend it to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

I'm interested in what spoke to you the most from those books.

 

[synergy]

The man Messiah Jesus acted as a unitarian would act, not as a trinitarian would act. That’s easy. What’s not easy is the reluctance of most trinitarians to acknowledge that the man Messiah Jesus was what he acted, a unitarian.

It is what it is. Trinitarians must be allowed to believe what they are persuaded is true.

The Bible persuades us. If it's other books that persuade you then you have all the freedom in the world to do so.

What it was for me as a trinitarian was a first step away from trinitarianism. A full exit from trinitarianism followed several years later.

What caused you to do a full exit?

 

[synergy]

That’s where we disagree. Gentile theologians centuries later struggled to explain what the Jew Jesus said. They interpreted his claims from a non-Jewish perspective, using Greek philosophy.

The Jesus story is an all Jewish affair. When understood from a Jewish perspective, which makes much better sense to me, the result, as we see, is much different than understood from the perspective of Greek philosophy.

I would like to explore this further, this Greek vs Jewish impression you have. Are you talking about Philo who Christianity did not accept?

There are no trinitarians in the OT or the NT. That’s a major concession made by trinitarian scholarship, especially Catholic scholarship.

The RCC did not exist during the first millennium of Christianity. You are appealing to then non-existent witnesses.

 

[Matthias]

Correct but as a man God is prophet, priest and king.

If Jesus is a Godman I would expect someone would have said so. I think you probably know, as do I, that Jesus is referred to as Godman in post-biblical trinitarianism but not in the scriptures.

So the one thing I can find in your post that really catches my attention is our agreement that God himself isn’t a prophet. That’s something to hang our hats on.

Some Trinitarians believe the Trinity is one self. Other trinitarians believe that the Trinity is three selves. How many selves do you believe the Trinity is?

Hebrews makes Christ superior to all men who help those earthly positions of authority. Now He as both God and man fulfills the greater position over his human counterpart's as taught in the entire book of Hebrews. He is superior in nature, ontology, position, rank and essence to both angels and man. Only God is superior to angels in rank/position.

Can you tell me anything about trinitarianism that I don’t already know? That’s what would be helpful to me.

 

[Matthias]

So when it comes "rank". You believe that Moses and Yeshua are equal? Just want to make sure.

No. Moses is a prophet but the Messiah is a prophet, a priest and a king. The Messiah is superior in rank to everyone except his / my God.

 

[Matthias]

You appealed to "I don’t debate." because it "useless".... (my words). This would indicate you're settled like the ones' you claim refuse to change.

I hold open the small possibility that I may be mistaken. Do you?

 

[Matthias]

This should be interesting because no matter which way it is answered the result favors trinitarianism, not unitarianism. Its a lose lose for them.

I don’t see it that way at all. I still have my trump card - Jesus of Nazareth; unitarian in faith and practice. His God is my God. Your God is the Trinity.

 

[Matthias]

I haven't seen any of them actually deal with what I wrote in the OP. @Matthias has the least tenable position of them all.

I have agreed that Jesus is worshipped. I’ve spent a fair amount of time discussing what worship is and who may be worshipped besides God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. Moses is a prophet but the Messiah is a prophet, a priest and a king. The Messiah is superior in rank to everyone except his / my God.

So there are none ranked above Jesus but Jesus is ranked less than the Father?

 

[Matthias]

Never. He declared that he is the "I Am" of the OT …[/iI]

No he didn’t. As Robert Young (author of Young’s Concordance) points out, all of the “I am” statements are connected with his claim to be the Messiah, not the God of the OT.

… and commended Thomas with the phrase "you have believed" when Thomas addressed Jesus as "my God". A unitarian Jesus would not even think of that, let alone do that.

A unitarian did think and do that. Who did Thomas see when he saw Jesus? He saw what everyone should see, the Father in Jesus.

Thomas’ God and Jesus’ God is the same God - the Father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If Jesus is a Godman I would expect someone would have said so.

They did.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[Matthias]

I'm interested in what spoke to you the most from those books.

That’s great. I’ll select a few quotes and post them for you. I’ll keep them brief.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have agreed that Jesus is worshipped. I’ve spent a fair amount of time discussing what worship is and who may be worshipped besides God.

You simply fabricated a solution to a problem you had. Being falsely fabricated, it does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[civic]

I don’t see it that way at all. I still have my trump card - Jesus of Nazareth; unitarian in faith and practice. His God is my God. Your God is the Trinity.

My God is the same as adams, all the prophets, psalmist, Jesus, the Apostles- The Plural God they all attest to in Scripture.

 

[Matthias]

The Bible persuades us. If it's other books that persuade you then you have all the freedom in the world to do so.

The Bible persuades me that the one God is none other than the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.

What caused you to do a full exit?

Studying with trinitarian scholars.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I hold open the small possibility that I may be mistaken. Do you?

Mine might be smaller....

I can tell you, that I have spent a very long time debating this subject. Decades. In fact.... it is one of the first teachings that I desired to know.

If I have an error in my theology in this theology, I will always error on the side of promoting Jesus Christ.

I feel the same way Paul felt....

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?