Worshipping The Son

[Matthias]

Boy ain’t that the truth

It reminds me of what is said in Hosea about people perishing for a lack of knowledge.

The world is going mad at breakneck speed now, or so it seems to me.

 

[synergy]

There is no record in his writings, in the writings of his contemporaries, or in the writings of other early Christians which indicate that he changed his mind. What we see with Justin is what we get.

Trinitarianism was unknown to him. “Justin the Trinitarian” never existed.

I can't be too hard on Justin. He didn’t have the luxuries that we possess today. The Church then was under intense persecution. We have peace, he didn't. We could assemble, they did so with great existential risk. We have the entire Bible, he didn't. We have Bible search apps, he didn't. One thing, among many others, that he did have much more than me, his willingness of martyrdom.

 

[civic]

It reminds me of what is said in Hosea about people perishing for a lack of knowledge.

The world is going mad at breakneck speed now, or so it seems to me.

So true my friend

 

[Matthias]

I can't be too hard on Justin. He didn’t have the luxuries that we possess today. The Church then was under intense persecution. We have peace, he didn't. We could assemble, they did so with great existential risk. We have the entire Bible, he didn't. We have Bible search apps, he didn't. One thing, among many others, thar he did have much more than me, his willingness of martyrdom.

Sometimes I’ve been asked if Justin (or Tertullian, or ….) would believe differently if he had known then what we know now. My response to that has simply been: I don’t know. Maybe so. Maybe not. Let’s leave it in God’s hands.

On the other hand, I have several friends in ministry who answer that question even more simply than I do: Of course he would!

 

[synergy]

Sometimes I’ve been asked if Justin (or Tertullian, or ….) would believe differently if he had known then what we know now. My response to that has simply been: I don’t know. Maybe so. Maybe not. Let’s leave it in God’s hands.

On the other hand, I have several friends in ministry who answer that question even more simply than I do: Of course he would!

If you don't mind, could you tell us about the Jesus you believe in, as an answer to Jesus' question: "who do you say I am?" - to whatever depth you're comfortable with. For me, the deeper you go the better. I would like to compare it to what Arians and Muslims say about Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

If you don't mind, could you tell us about the Jesus you believe in, as an answer to Jesus' question: "who do you say I am?" - to whatever depth you're comfortable with.

Sure. And thank you for asking.

I believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16).

For me, the deeper you go the better. I would like to compare it to what Arians and Muslims say about Jesus.

I believe Jesus is a Jew, that his religion was Judaism, that he is the prophet like Moses whom the living God promised would be raised up from among the people, that he is a king and a priest. I also believe that he was supernaturally begotten by the living God in the womb of a virgin, that he preached the gospel, was crucified on the cross by the Romans, was not alive while he was dead and in the tomb for three days, was resurrected back to life by the living God, ascended to heaven and is presently sitting at the right hand of the living God. That he will return sometime in the future, a time known only by the living God (though I think it’s possible that he also knows now when that time is), that he will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem when he returns, that he will destroy the antiChrist when returns, that he will then reign on the earth - with those who belong to him - for a thousand years, that he will destroy all those who rebel at the end of the thousand years, that he has been appointed by the living God to judge mankind, and that he will turn over the kingdom to the living God when all of this has been completed.

Additional information that you will find helpful for purposes of comparison: I believe that he preexisted notionally, not literally. That his origin is in the womb of the virgin. That he is a human person who has been changed from mortal to immortal when he was resurrected to life. That not he, but the living God, is the creator of the heavens and the earth.

I don’t want to prejudice your comparison exercise but I’m opposed to Arianism, Modalism, trinitarianism, binitarianism, Islam, Judaism in its present form (I do, however believe that Christianity began as a sect of, and within, Judaism), both branches of Messianic Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Paganism, Shintoism, agnosticism, atheism. Anything and everything that isn’t Jewish monotheism.

I believe that his God, not he, is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I believe in Conditional Immortality. I believe in the wider hope. I don’t believe in universal salvation. I’m not a Unitarian Universalist. I don’t believe heaven is the destination of the dying.

That should be enough information to get you started. Questions? Please feel free to inquire. And again, thank you for asking. Few trinitarians take the time or care.

P.S.

I’m opposed to polygamy, pornography, abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, fornication, adultery, drug and alcohol abuse, child neglect and abuse, and racism.

I’m a pacifist; a conscientious objector. I don’t believe Christians should kill one another, nor do I believe that Christians should kill non-Christians. I preach non-violence. I’m willing to be martyred, if it should come to that.

My personal creed is the Shema.

Church history is an area of particular interest to me, primarily the Ante-Nicene period, but later periods too.

I have spiritual roots in the Anabaptist movement.

I believe in baptizing in water, in the name of Jesus and/or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

One of the things I’m best remembered for by my students is my admonition to them: Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically. (The most important thing to read is the Bible - Old Testament and New Testament. It should be read daily, and take precedence over anything else we read.)

Those things may or may not be helpful in your comparison exercise but, after I posted, these things all came to mind; so I added them.

 

[Diserner]

I believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16).

Do you believe Christ provides atonement for sins, and if so, exactly what does that atonement entail and how it is received.

I think the doctrine of the atonement is exponentially more important than most other doctrines, as it defines grace.

 

[civic]

Do you believe Christ provides atonement for sins, and if so, exactly what does that atonement entail and how it is received.

I think the doctrine of the atonement is exponentially more important than most other doctrines, as it defines grace.

The atonement is important not the 7 or more different views no one agrees upon. The fact His death provided atonement and forgiveness of sins is all that really matters and not all the doctrines on the atonement.

 

[Diserner]

The atonement is important not the 7 or more different views no one agrees upon. The fact His death provided atonement and forgiveness of sins is all that really matters and not all the doctrines on the atonement.

I don't think God wants us to have a fuzzy "Jesus did something undefined and now I'm forgiven."

That obscures and waters down the meaning of atonement.

Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Christ paid the price for my sin, that's the ONLY view of atonement that is Biblical and powerful.

 

[Matthias]

Do you believe Christ provides atonement for sins, and if so, exactly what does that atonement entail and how it is received.

Yes, I do. It entails the shed blood of the human Messiah, initiating the new covenant. Acts 8:12 is a passage which comes to mind in regard to how it is received.

I think the doctrine of the atonement is exponentially more important than most other doctrines, as it defines grace.

 

[synergy]

Sure. And thank you for asking.

Thank you for responding. This will be a comparison between your beliefs and Islam.

I believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16).

Muslims more strongly emphasis Jesus as a word of God.

I believe Jesus is a Jew, that his religion was Judaism, that he is the prophet like Moses whom the living God promised would be raised up from among the people,

That's what Muslims say about their Jesus.

that he is a king and a priest.

Muhammad was definitely the "king" and the supreme spiritual leader of his tribe, and of all Muslims for that matter.

I also believe that he was supernaturally begotten by the living God in the womb of a virgin, that he preached the gospel,

That's what Muslims say about Jesus.

was crucified on the cross by the Romans, was not alive while he was dead and in the tomb for three days, was resurrected back to life by the living God,

Muslims deny that. They see no sense in that. This is a major difference that I see between the Unitarian Jesus and the Muslim Jesus.

ascended to heaven and is presently sitting at the right hand of the living God. That he will return sometime in the future, a time known only by the living God (though I think it’s possible that he also knows now when that time is), that he will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem when he returns, that he will destroy the antiChrist when returns,

That's what Muslims say about their Jesus.

that he will then reign on the earth - with those who belong to him - for a thousand years, that he will destroy all those who rebel at the end of the thousand years, that he has been appointed by the living God to judge mankind, and that he will turn over the kingdom to the living God when all of this has been completed.

That is the Jesus that Muslims believe in. At this point, Muslims believe Jesus will die a normal human death and go to heaven just like anyone else.

Additional information that you will find helpful for purposes of comparison: I believe that he preexisted notionally, not literally. That his origin is in the womb of the virgin. That he is a human person who has been changed from mortal to immortal when he was resurrected to life. That not he, but the living God, is the creator of the heavens and the earth.

It can be argued that except for the virgin birth that makes the unitarian Jesus no different than the past and future of any believer.

I don’t want to prejudice your comparison exercise but I’m opposed to Arianism, Modalism, trinitarianism, binitarianism, Islam, Judaism in its present form (I do, however believe that Christianity began as a sect of, and within, Judaism), both branches of Messianic Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Paganism, Shintoism, agnosticism, atheism. Anything and everything that isn’t Jewish monotheism.

Ok.

I believe that his God, not he, is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Muslims believe the same.

I believe in Conditional Immortality. I believe in the wider hope. I don’t believe in universal salvation. I’m not a Unitarian Universalist. I don’t believe heaven is the destination of the dying.

Muslims are very much the same.

That should be enough information to get you started. Questions? Please feel free to inquire. And again, thank you for asking. Few trinitarians take the time or care.

The Muslims say that a word from God was placed into Jesus that made him a great prophet of God. Do you say the same about the Unitarian Jesus?

P.S.

I’m opposed to polygamy, pornography, abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, fornication, adultery, drug and alcohol abuse, child neglect and abuse, and racism.

I’m a pacifist; a conscientious objector. I don’t believe Christians should kill one another, nor do I believe that Christians should kill non-Christians. I preach non-violence. I’m willing to be martyred, if it should come to that.

My personal creed is the Shema.

Interesting. I'm going to research that.

Church history is an area of particular interest to me, primarily the Ante-Nicene period, but later periods too.

My favorite Church Fathers, that come immediately to mind, are Ignatius, Basil, Chrysostom, Athanasius, John of Damascus, and especially Gregory Palamas.

As far as the history of the Eastern Roman Empire is concerned, it was extremely anti-paganistic. It threw away writings of Aristotle that were brought into the west only through Arab translations.

I have spiritual roots in the Anabaptist movement.

AnaBaptists is a Greek compound word meaning Re-baptisers - a stigmatizing label thrown against anabaptists that they adopted wholeheartedly.

I believe in baptizing in water, in the name of Jesus and/or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

You're not against trinitarian baptisms. That's excellent!

One of the things I’m best remembered for by my students is my admonition to them: Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically. (The most important thing to read is the Bible - Old Testament and New Testament. It should be read daily, and take precedence over anything else we read.)

Yes, you're absolutely right. Think critically. We only have one life.

Those things may or may not be helpful in your comparison exercise but, after I posted, these things all came to mind; so I added them.

Thank you for all that. Except for the Crucifixion (Muslims think Jesus dies only after destroying the AntiChrist), I see no difference between the Unitarian Jesus and the Muslim Jesus. And even with the Cross, how can the Unitarian Jesus, who you say is not God, do that which only God can do, namely: save us?

 

[Matthias]

Thank you for responding. This will be a comparison between your beliefs and Islam.

Muslims more strongly emphasis Jesus as a word of God.

That's what Muslims say about their Jesus.

Muhammad was definitely the "king" and the supreme spiritual leader of his tribe, and of all Muslims for that matter.

That's what Muslims say about Jesus.

Muslims deny that. They see no sense in that. This is a major difference that I see between the Unitarian Jesus and the Muslim Jesus.

That's what Muslims say about their Jesus.

That is the Jesus that Muslims believe in. At this point, Muslims believe Jesus will die a normal human death and go to heaven just like anyone else.

It can be argued that except for the virgin birth that makes the unitarian Jesus no different than the past and future of any believer.

Ok.

Muslims believe the same.

Muslims are very much the same.

The Muslims say that a word from God was placed into Jesus that made him a great prophet of God. Do you say the same about the Unitarian Jesus?

Interesting. I'm going to research that.

My favorite Church Fathers, that come immediately to mind, are Ignatius, Basil, Chrysostom, Athanasius, John of Damascus, and especially Gregory Palamas.

As far as the history of the Eastern Roman Empire is concerned, it was extremely anti-paganistic. It threw away writings of Aristotle that were brought into the west only through Arab translations.

AnaBaptists is a Greek compound word meaning Re-baptisers - a stigmatizing label thrown against anabaptists that they adopted wholeheartedly.

You're not against trinitarian baptisms. That's excellent!

Yes, you're absolutely right. Think critically. We only have one life.

Thank you for all that. Except for the Crucifixion (Muslims think Jesus dies only after destroying the AntiChrist), I see no difference between the Unitarian Jesus and the Muslim Jesus. And even with the Cross, how can the Unitarian Jesus, who you say is not God, do that which only God can do, namely: save us?

If I look hard enough, I can usually find some things in common with trinitarians, binitarians, unitarians, muslims and jews. It’s much more difficult for me to locate points of commonality with the non-Abrahamic religions.

The muslim Jesus is very different than the Jewish Jesus I believe in, as well as the trinitarian Jesus you believe in.

Jewish monotheism accommodates the belief that the Messiah can, and does, do the things which the living God does. The living God has given him that ability and authority. Everything has been placed under the Messiah by the living, except for the living God himself.

 

[Matthias]

”For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.”

(Luke 2:11, NABRE)

I like reading this Catholic Bible for casual reading.

There is one thing which jumps out of the text to me. It’s something which many other translations have as well. The effect those other translations have on me is the same as this translation.

It isn’t the lower case “s” in savior. It isn’t the use of Messiah in place of Christ. It isn’t the upper case “L” in Lord. It’s the “a” in front of the word savior.

Why is the phrase “a savior” and not “the savior”?

I don’t have a problem with it. The Catholics who produced the translation must not have a problem with it. I haven’t met any trinitarian who has expressed a problem with it. Maybe that will change today. Maybe it won’t.

Do any of the trinitarians on this forum have a problem with it?

 

[synergy]

If I look hard enough, I can usually find some things in common with trinitarians, binitarians, unitarians, muslims and jews. It’s much more difficult for me to locate points of commonality with the non-Abrahamic religions.

The muslim Jesus is very different than the Jewish Jesus I believe in, as well as the trinitarian Jesus you believe in.

Not really according to what you sent me. I went through each and every paragraph you sent me. Ceremoniously speaking you can say that they are different but ontologically speaking they are virtually the same. The only difference is the Cross and that is a nonfactor for our salvation if Jesus is just a human.

Jewish monotheism accommodates the belief that the Messiah can, and does, do the things which the living God does. The living God has given him that ability and authority. Everything has been placed under the Messiah by the living, except for the living God himself.

The Muslim Jesus is accorded authority by Allah, by virtue of their Jesus being given a word of God, except that Muhammad supercedes the Muslim Jesus in some respects.

 

[Matthias]

Not really according to what you sent me. I went through each and every paragraph you sent me.

I don’t agree with everything you wrote about what muslims believe about Jesus. The reason I don’t is because those things which I disagree with you about aren’t what muslims (Sunni) whom I’ve spoken with (including one who is an Imam) have told me that they believe, and not what the literature they’ve given me says they believe. I didn’t and don’t want us to get sidetracked on what muslims believe. That’s why I let it go without comment.

I was interested to see what you would have to say in your comparison exercise. I’m a little surprised that you associate me as being closer to Islam than to Judaism. I find that interesting, and suspicious.

Ceremoniously speaking you can say that they are different but ontologically speaking they are virtually the same. The only difference is the Cross and that is a nonfactor for our salvation if Jesus is just a human.

The Muslim Jesus is accorded authority by Allah except that Muhammad supercedes the Muslim Jesus in some respects.

Ceremoniously speaking? I don’t know what brought that on. I merely provided you with information that you requested. There was nothing ceremonious about it.

You think I have more in common with Muslims than Muslims themselves do.

 

[synergy]

”For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.”

(Luke 2:11, NABRE)

I like reading this Catholic Bible for casual reading.

There is one thing which jumps out of the text to me. It’s something which many other translations have as well. The effect those other translations have on me is the same as this translation.

It isn’t the lower case “s” in savior. It isn’t the use of Messiah in place of Christ. It isn’t the upper case “L” in Lord. It’s the “a” in front of the word savior.

Why is the phrase “a savior” and not “the savior”?

I don’t have a problem with it. The Catholics who produced the translation must not have a problem with it. I haven’t met any trinitarian who has expressed a problem with it. Maybe that will change today. Maybe it won’t.

Do any of the trinitarians on this forum have a problem with it?

It most likely is in reference to the Virgin Mary. Only God saves. Nobody else saves, neither Mary nor the Unitarian Jesus. Only the Trintarian Jesus, who is God, saves.

 

[Matthias]

It most likely is in reference to the Virgin Mary. Only God saves. Nobody else saves, neither Mary nor the Unitarian Jesus. Only the Trintarian Jesus, who is God, saves.

The phrase “a savior” is in reference to the Virgin Mary? I’ve never heard anyone - Catholic or non-Catholic - say that before. (Theology is a wilder ride than anything Six Flags has to offer.)

The phrase “a savior” is also in Protestant produced Bibles. I can’t even imagine that a Protestant would ever say that it is in reference to the Virgin Mary.

 

[synergy]

I don’t agree with everything you wrote about what muslims believe about Jesus. The reason I don’t is because those things which I disagree with you about aren’t what muslims (Sunni) whom I’ve spoken with (including one who is an Imam) have told me that they believe, and not what the literature they’ve given me says they believe. I didn’t and don’t want us to get sidetracked on what muslims believe. That’s why I let it go without comment.

Do they believe that Jesus was crucified?

I was interested to see what you would have to say in your comparison exercise. I’m a little surprised that you associate me as being closer to Islam than to Judaism. I find that interesting, and suspicious.

Judaism has no regard for Jesus. On the other hand, Muslims and Unitarians have a very similar regard for Jesus. In fact their only major ddifference that I see is the Cross and that is a nonfactor for our salvation if Jesus is just a human. Do you see any other major difference?

Ceremoniously speaking? I don’t know what brought that on. I merely provided you with information that you requested. There was nothing ceremonious about it.

I tried to help you with finding differences beyond what you mentioned. TThat’s he best I could do. They are so much alike.

 

[Matthias]

Do they believe that Jesus was crucified?

No.

Judaism has no regard for Jesus.

Messianic Judaism does.

On the other hand, Muslims and Unitarians have a very similar regard for Jesus. In fact their only major ddifference that I see is the Cross and that is a nonfactor for our salvation if Jesus is just a human. Do you see any other major difference?

Yes.

I tried to help you with finding differences beyond what you mentioned. TThat’s he best I could do. They are so much alike.

They aren’t anywhere near as much alike as you think they are.

 

[synergy]

The phrase “a savior” is in reference to the Virgin Mary? I’ve never heard anyone - Catholic or non-Catholic - say that before. (Theology is a wilder ride than anything Six Flags has to offer.)

The phrase “a savior” is also in Protestant produced Bibles. I can’t even imagine that a Protestant would ever say that it is in reference to the Virgin Mary.

I'm not Catholic but I think that Catholics believe that Mary has a share in our salvation. That's why it doesn't say the Savior, it says a savior. A Catholic can correct me or explain it better.