Looks like I missed out on all the fun all of you experienced since yesterday evening. I'd like to return back to your mention of shachah. Could you tell me to whom shachah is directed to and by whom? Would you say that shachah can only be directed to your Messiah or can it be directed to others?
Worshipping The Son
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
While I use to stand in judgement with the salvation of others who disagree doctrinally on the Trinity and Deity of Christ I no longer do that and God is the Judge of another mans heart that I cannot see or know so I leave that up to Him. @Matthias
So you can teach an old dognew tricks
The "Romans' Road" event that some seek..... has often been greatly misunderstood. The Gospel often has to have it's work in an individual's life. Sometimes this takes time. I do believe there is a place a person gets in faith wherein that individual is destined to later be saved. I had a friend that once said to me, "some are still in the womb"......
He was referencing Paul's words in
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
God's "wheels" often grind slow but they never cease to be true to their work. God's requirements are simple but it is complicated by sincerity and motive. Which two things almost impossible to discern at all times. God knows. We can't. We shouldn't.
civic
Well-known member
and there was an old poster who was a real troll by every single definition of the word who loved to play games 24/7 and he was really good at it too. but I'm also good at it in my flesh, my sinful and carnal self use to thrive on belittling and getting over on others and one up them in the process.
this poster who went by the name of milton and was a really knowledgeable unitarian and knew the doctrine of the trinity more than most of the trinitarian posters was good at logic and debate. we use to go at it for years on the old trinity forum and in the language forum.
I still have some of the interactions saved but one in particular I would like to share with the unitarians on this forum. He said that he would rather spend an eternity in hell suffering eternal torment with him, his wife and children than with the God of the Trinitarians. His hatred and disdain ran that deep and he made no bones about his position and hatred for the trinity and deity of Christ.
How would unitarians here handle someone who felt like that ?
this poster who went by the name of milton and was a really knowledgeable unitarian and knew the doctrine of the trinity more than most of the trinitarian posters was good at logic and debate. we use to go at it for years on the old trinity forum and in the language forum.
I still have some of the interactions saved but one in particular I would like to share with the unitarians on this forum. He said that he would rather spend an eternity in hell suffering eternal torment with him, his wife and children than with the God of the Trinitarians. His hatred and disdain ran that deep and he made no bones about his position and hatred for the trinity and deity of Christ.
How would unitarians here handle someone who felt like that ?
civic
Well-known member
no he was a full blown unitarian here is some of our old dialogue from around 2015 I'm guessing.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by John Milton If you want to spend eternity with a three-in-one God then you should choose Hell, since that is where Cerberus dwells. |
It's as simple as that.
__________________
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 4:3 every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus come in the flesh is not from God.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by John Milton If the God of heaven is triune, I would choose for me and my house to be in hell for all eternity. |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by John Milton I counsel everyone to draw a line in the sand. Those who are with the non-triune, one God on the one side, those who are with the trinitarian God on the other. Don't worry about "heaven" and "hell" threats and what not. |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by civic and wish this on their family ? |
And THEN, I would take the biggest stick in creation and beat the trinitarians about the head and shoulders for not convincing me with proper arguments instead of all those cockamamie illogical, and unscriptural and anti-scriptural creeds they developed.
AFTER THAT, I would Try to convince God that he is indeed the author of confusion, and give everyone at least one more go around with a ghost-writer this time.
And I don't mean Holy Ghost.
I mean someone who thinks like a man.
Hi Civic,
Quote:
| Originally Posted by bebop I guess you had some context to your statement after all, and it wasn't something that is fully explained when pulled out on its own. Thanks for clarifying what someone tried to make unclear. Anyway - God's word all falls apart if God is a 3 person trinity. Therefore God wouldn't have declared himself properly at all in his word and we have nothing solid to stand on in this life if he is triune AND his word is true. It's sad that not more can see this. In short: If God is triune, God's word is in error. God NEVER says he is three, and ONLY says that he is one. And yet for all that we have the majority teaching that God is three. Maybe it's time they come back to the scriptures. |
Seriously however, God expects us to draw the line in the sand and be faithful to him in the here and now. Civic is deluding himself to think he can have his cake and eat it too. If he chooses to believe in the triune God in this world, and dies a trinitarian without repenting of this error, it will be too late for him to change his mind in the world to come. He can no more do this than the rich man ask forgiveness of Lazarus from hades in Luke 16 and excape his condition. This is our hour of trial when God tests our faithfulness. Fail here and fail him forever. When Moses drew the line in the wilderness and commanded the Israelites to take sides , those who remained in opposition were consumed, for eternity. There is no redemption for such as these in the world to come.
Therefore I ask all faithful servants of God to take sides. Either you are with the Unitarian God or you're against him. You cannot be against him in this world (when it is not difficult to do so) and be for him in the world to come (when it is easy to be for him.)
Theo's humorous post highlights how utterly impossible it is for someone to change positions after death. Such people would make the lives of God and of the Saints a living hell in heaven
I think the difference between me and the trinitarians is that I want to be where my God is, not where "heaven" or "hell" is.
I could care less about the trinitarian "heaven." Afte all they are notorious for twisting biblical words to mean their opposite, so that they transform "son of God" to " God the son," so that they change God from "Father in heaven" to "Father, Son and holy Spirit in Heaven", etc. . The trinitarian "heaven" is actually hell in my view. Therefore logic demands that I would want to be in what the trinitarians term "hell" where the so-called false Unitarian God dwells. This is my wish for myself and my household, to live in "hell" where the non-triune God , whom I call my "Father in heaven" (but whom the trinitarians think is a false god of hell) is. Yes indeed...Trinitarians even think they're the true Christians .
Let us draw the line.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Grace2Squeak John Milton, You've made your choice...bring your sun block...it's going to be very hot... |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by John Milton I'm going to be blunt. Every trinitarian who does not repent of this triune God business (which is simply thinly disguised polytheism) before he dies will go to hell. best wishes, |
Hi Civic,
Quote:
| Originally Posted by civic Wow another request from the universalist to go to hell rather then spending an eternity with God and some trins. |
Quote: by civic
| Falsely accusing John Wilcox once again, this is becoming a daily habit with you milton. Do you have ADD ? Did you take your meds today ? |
best wishes,
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3621169#post3621169
100% of Unitarians are going to heaven. There are a lot of groups that go by the name "Unitarians" but the Unitarians I'm referring to are people who at a minimum believe the following: (a) The Father of Jesus is the only true God, (b) Jesus is not God, (c) Jesus is Messiah. It's as simple as that. Confess with your lips (a), (b), and (c) and you're saved by my Father in heaven.
milton you quote outside sources for your argument because you cannot back your false doctrine of salvation. Jesus, Paul and James make it perfectly clear that saving faith. those who are born again of the Spirit will produce fruit(good works). Those who don not are thrown into the fire where there will be gnashing of teeth. Jesus and the NT writers are all in agreement as to salvation that produces a changed life in the believer. Christians are commanded to walk by the Spirit, it is not an option.Here read Pauls words,
Quote:
| Originally Posted by John Milton Hi Civic, And how does what James has written in 2 16 and 17 refute anything I have said? |
you must be blind or have a comprehension problem. James never says that someone who does not produce works is saved, in fact he says that person has a DEAD faith.
James 2:17-21
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Gal 5:16-24
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Matt 24:45-51
45 " Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will beweeping and gnashing of teeth.
Unbelievable milton that you cannot see that true faith produces fruit or good works in the life of a believer. No fruit, no good works amount to a dead faith. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. The life giving Spirit transforms the life of a believer and he is a new creature in Christ, old things have passed away(old sinful ways of life, and ones mind is set on the things above) and all things become new. He walks in newness of life. He has a new master and Lord that he serves and obeys. You cannot get Jesus as a Savior without Him as your Lord. No free meal tickets into heaven pal. You don't get into heaven by some prayer and then live like the devil and expect to get eternal life.. That is a dead faith.
milton where is that in the bible
you said : "Confession itself is the fruit of the faith"
Jesus said the way one proves to be His is by bearing much fruit. Fruit is the evidence of saving faith.
John 15:8
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit
milton when we read these verses in John we see the term abide means “to remain, stay, stand fast, dwell, continue, last, endure. The lifestyle of the disciple is one of abiding which produces fruit in ones life. Remaining in Jesus and continuing with Christ when we don't understand. Making the Lord and our relationship with Him our permanent abode. Jesus said, “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing (verse 5).There is no middle ground for the follower of Jesus. You either abide in Jesus and bear fruit or do not abide in Him and are left behind (verses 2, 6). Abiding in Jesus is nothing more or less than keeping His commandments. Jesus said, If you keep My commandments you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love (John 15:10).We cannot bear fruit outside of right relationship with Him. He said apart from Me you can do nothing.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by John Milton Hi Civic, ἐγὼ εἰμί is not the name of YHWH, it is just about the most common pronoun verbal combination in the GNT. As far as John 20:28 is concerned, you should understand that θεὸς is a common noun. |
You deny the Son is God therefor denying the Father as well and this passage applies to you.
1 John 2:21-24
I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
the Greek name I¢sous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew word which in English is spelled "Jehoshua," and which means "Jehovah saves." Thus, in the name "Jesus" there is contained the doctrines of the deity, humanity and vicarious atonement of the Person who bears that name. Only Jehovah could offer a sacrifice which would satisfy the demands of His holy law which the human race broke. But that sacrifice had to include within itself human nature without its sin, for deity in itself could not die, and deity acting as Priest for the sinner must partake of the nature of the individual on whose behalf He officiates.
The name "Christ" is the transliteration of Christos, a Greek word meaning "the anointed one," and this is the translation of the Hebrew word from which we get the name "Messiah."
The denial therefore is that the Person called Jesus was neither God nor man, and that on the Cross He did not offer an atonement for sin. Present day Modernism denies the deity of Jesus of Nazareth and the substitutionary atonement He offered on the Cross, while subscribing to His humanity. Modernism is branded here by John as "the liar."
(from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, .)
Hi Civic,
Quote:
| Originally Posted by civic You deny the Son is God therefor denying the Father as well and this passage applies to you. 1 John 2:21-24 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. the Greek name I¢sous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew word which in English is spelled "Jehoshua," and which means "Jehovah saves." Thus, in the name "Jesus" there is contained the doctrines of the deity, humanity and vicarious atonement of the Person who bears that name. Only Jehovah could offer a sacrifice which would satisfy the demands of His holy law which the human race broke. But that sacrifice had to include within itself human nature without its sin, for deity in itself could not die, and deity acting as Priest for the sinner must partake of the nature of the individual on whose behalf He officiates. The name "Christ" is the transliteration of Christos, a Greek word meaning "the anointed one," and this is the translation of the Hebrew word from which we get the name "Messiah." The denial therefore is that the Person called Jesus was neither God nor man, and that on the Cross He did not offer an atonement for sin. Present day Modernism denies the deity of Jesus of Nazareth and the substitutionary atonement He offered on the Cross, while subscribing to His humanity. Modernism is branded here by John as "the liar." (from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, .) |
Saying Jesus is God is equivalent to saying Jesus did not come in the flesh, because God is not flesh but Spirit. This is the spirit of anti-Christ.
1 John 4:3
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not from God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come; and even now already it is in the world."
John 4:24,
"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
Matthias
Well-known member
The apostles will be reigning with the Messiah in the kingdom of God.
I will, if I finish the race.
You would if you believed the Messiah.
Messiah will reign supreme. You aren’t good at making analogies.
This gets back to you not understanding the heart of a pastor.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I remember Milton.
As far as carnal arguments are concerned.... I've been the same way. Well you know better than most. I have a competitive nature. I'm going to say something..... I thought I would actually never say.... many years ago. Sometimes, love is more important than the Truth. Truth condemns while love gracefully sets free. The Atonement teaches us this precious truth. You can be absolutely 100 percent right about something and your attitude will destroy everything you're trying to accomplish. When you're guilty, Grace is what we need.... and we certainly are all guilty.
civic
Well-known member
I'm with you brother. We were allot alike in the old days on the forum. A like minded duo.
I'm glad to see God changing the both of us over the years.
Matthias
Well-known member
No.
More do well thank you give them credit for.
I’m beginning to see that you have a problem with pastors in general.
Every day I pastored was a “Members appreciation day.”
Once again your problem with pastors in general is exhibited.
As for myself, there was no “Pastor appreciation day” which was acknowledged as such. The members of the congregation caused me to know that they appreciated me every day.
Matthias
Well-known member
The first step toward correcting a problem is acknowledging that you have one.
civic
Well-known member
Agreed and we should all examine ourselves daily to see if we are being Christ-Like and applying the golden rule with others. We should all be good Berean's having healthy debates while leaving any personal remarks out of our conversations. I know its not always easy to do but that is my hope and prayer here for our forum,
Matthias
Well-known member
While I use to stand in judgement with the salvation of others who disagree doctrinally on the Trinity and Deity of Christ I no longer do that and God is the Judge of another mans heart that I cannot see or know so I leave that up to Him. @Matthias
So you can teach an old dog
I’m not a universalist but I do believe there is a wideness in God’s mercy. Perhaps you have heard of what is commonly called “the wider hope.” That is a good descriptive of what I believe.
God has appointed a man to judge. Jesus of Nazareth is that man. Judgement, as I see you’ve come to see - I had to come to see it too - must be left in his hands. I’m supremely confident that he will judge wisely.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm not going to keep this up. I'm going to leave you alone. BTW.... I've pastored before myself. I'm sure you'll tell me I was failure and you were an outstanding success. Enjoy the "bragging rights".
civic
Well-known member
Matthias
Well-known member
I don’t know anything about what you’ve done or how well you did it. All I know is what I did and that you have a problem.
Matthias
Well-known member
In a nutshell, it’s the belief that those who did not know the one God and the Messiah during their lifetime may still be saved; they will be judged on how they lived and what they reasonably could have known. Their place is in the second resurrection, and that not all who find themselves in the second resurrection will be thrown into and destroyed in the lake of fire. Instead, they will be given the life of the coming age.
Matthias
Well-known member
Agreed and we should all examine ourselves daily to see if we are being Christ-Like and applying the golden rule with others. We should all be good Berean's having healthy debates while leaving any personal remarks out of our conversations. I know its not always easy to do but that is my hope and prayer here for our forum,
I heartily agree with what you said, with one exception.
Matthias
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Universalism by a "different name". This seems be to be "trending" recently. Old errors rebranded with new marketing material.
Matthias
Well-known member
No. As I clearly stated, not everyone will be saved.
Go and learn the difference between everyone being saved (universalism) and not everyone being saved (not universalism).
I knew when you said that you were going to leave me alone that you weren’t going to leave me alone. If you’re honest with yourself, you knew it too.
A general principle: Be a man of your word.
