"Works Salvation"

The real clincher here is the fact that the Bible is very clear that we cannot be saved by works, and water baptism is a work, both by the baptizer, and the baptizee, so nobody is saved by performing the work of water baptism.
The Bible says one cannot be saved by works of merit, obedience to God's will is not a work of merit.

Even Martin Luther understood that God was the one Who was doing the work when a person submitted to baptism:


Martin Luther Speaks on “Faith Only” and Baptism​

KYLE BUTT, M.Div.

One popular belief in many protestant denominations is the idea that God supplies salvation to each and every person based solely on the faith of that person, apart from any action taken by that individual. This idea, often called sola fide, says, that a person is saved by faith alone. Any number of quotations demonstrating this doctrine can be cited. In a debate with Thomas Warren in 1953, L.S. Ballard affirmed the position that “the alien sinner is saved the very moment he/she believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God” (Warren and Ballard, 1953). This particular belief is commonly worded like this: “People are saved through Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.”

According to the modern-day advocates of “faith alone” salvation, water baptism cannot be a requisite to salvation, because it is something “more than” faith. While space limitations prevent a thorough investigation of the biblical doctrine of baptism (see Lyons, 2003), it is interesting to note how far the “faith alone” doctrine has drifted from its original form.

The idea of being saved by faith alone is often attributed to Martin Luther. Indeed, he and the other reformers challenged the Catholic Church that sold indulgences and offered a “works-based” type of salvation. Martin Luther often taught that salvation was based on faith alone, and not received based upon a person’s meritorious works. Martin Luther did not, however, take faith alone to mean that mere mental assent to Christ’s deity was sufficient to obtain salvation. In fact, Luther’s idea of faith alone does not conform to the modern-day idea that baptism cannot be required for salvation.

While it is understood that the opinions of men are in no way authoritative when it comes to God’s plan for salvation, it is nonetheless interesting to note that Martin Luther believed wholeheartedly in the necessity of baptism as a requisite for salvation. In his Large Catechism, Luther wrote:

'(I) affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless…. Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action' (1978, pp. 98-99).

From Luther’s comments about baptism, it is obvious that he viewed water baptism as essential for salvation. Many of the protestant denominations that attribute their ideas about “faith only” to Martin Luther have not been taught that Luther’s concept of faith alone was not in opposition to works of God (like baptism and repentance), but in opposition to meritorious works by which a person believes that he or she “earns” salvation.

What, then, would Martin Luther say to those today who teach that “faith alone” excludes baptism? Listen to his words pertaining to this teaching:

'But our know-it-alls, the new spirit people, claim that faith alone saves and that human works and outward forms contribute nothing to this. We answer: It is of course true that nothing in us does it except faith, as we shall hear later. But these blind leaders of the blind refuse to see that faith must have something in which it believes, that is, something it clings to, something on which to plant its feet and into which to sink its roots. Thus faith clings to the water and believes Baptism to be something in which there is pure salvation and life, not through the water, as I have emphasized often enough, but because God’s name is joined to it…. If follows from this that whoever rejects Baptism rejects God’s word, faith, and the Christ who directs us to Baptism and binds us to it' (1978, pp. 101-102).

Martin Luther was a man. He made many mistakes and believed things about the Bible that were not true. It should be noted, however, that the “faith only” doctrine attributed so often to him has been misrepresented on a grand scale. Martin Luther’s words are unambiguous and clear. His “faith only” doctrine did not exclude baptism as necessary for salvation. Could it be the case that those who loudly tout the “faith only” mantra have not thoroughly investigated the works of the man to whom the doctrine is so often attributed?

The Bible does teach that those who are being saved are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It does not, however, teach that a person is saved “by faith alone” without any further acts of obedience. Even Martin Luther recognized that water baptism is not a meritorious work that earns a person salvation. On the other hand, it is an obedient act required by God in order for people to obtain salvation.

REFERENCES

Luther, Martin (1978), Luther’s Large Catechism, (Saint Louis, MO: Concordia).

Lyons, Eric (2003), “The Bible’s Teaching on Baptism: Contradictory or Complimentary,” [On-line], URL: https://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/617.

Warren, Thomas B. and L.S. Ballard (1953), The Warren-Ballard Debate, (Moore, OK: National Christian Press).

Published December 31, 2003


(my emp)
 
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Some have gone to such extremes to claim obedience to God is a work of merit, therefore try and claim salvation can be obtained apart from obedience to God's will, that is, salvation can be obtained while living in disobedience to God's will. Paul clearly wrote of "obedence unto righteousness" Rom 6:16
Good works are evidence of faith.
 
I always thought it was pretty amazing how you were able to stand your ground over there
It gets rough at times. But one thing has always stuck in my mind. Am I willing to do for the truth what others are willing to do for a falsehood. In any case I am still posting there but am unsure how much longer I will be allowed to
 
The real clincher here is the fact that the Bible is very clear that we cannot be saved by works, and water baptism is a work, both by the baptizer, and the baptizee, so nobody is saved by performing the work of water baptism.
Make sure, when you are talking about "cannot be saved by works", that you clarify what works is being talked about in Scripture. Paul says many times that it is not works in general that he is talking about, but works of the Law. Works of the Law, obedience to the Law of Moses, does not lead to salvation. But clearly there are actions that lead to receiving salvation, because Rom 10:9-10 says very clearly that confession of Jesus as Lord must be done verbally, and in Matt 10:32-33 Jesus says our confession of Him must also be public (this could be the verbal confession and also a lifestyle of obedience to Him). In other words, if no one knows you are a follower of Jesus by your actions and words, then you are not a follower of Jesus and He will not claim you in Heaven. So Scripture is not saying that there is no action at all that must be done before salvation is received. It is saying that the keeping of the Law does not lead to righteousness, because no one can keep it perfectly, and any breaking of any commandment constitutes breaking of the whole thing, and we have all already broken commandments in the Law.
 
To be saved by works simply means that one claims to be saved from the penalty of sin, and given eternal life because of something they did.

The word for works as in Eph 2:9

ἔργων:
  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word covers a very wide spectrum !
 
To be saved by works simply means that one claims to be saved from the penalty of sin, and given eternal life because of something they did.

The word for works as in Eph 2:9

ἔργων:
  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word covers a very wide spectrum !
Let me ask you an easy question: Does Rom 10:9-10 require an action before a person can receive salvation? This requires only a "yes" or a "no" answer. Which one is it?
 
To be saved by works simply means that one claims to be saved from the penalty of sin, and given eternal life because of something they did.

The word for works as in Eph 2:9

ἔργων:
  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word covers a very wide spectrum !
But not faith, as the bible does not contradict itself

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
But not faith, as the bible does not contradict itself

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Amen
 
To be saved by works simply means that one claims to be saved from the penalty of sin, and given eternal life because of something they did.

The word for works as in Eph 2:9

ἔργων:
  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word covers a very wide spectrum !
A note on Lexicons

A Lexicon cannot tell you what a word means in a given passage. Only context can do that. Lexicons can tell you how a word was used and show a range of meaning. What a word means in a particular passage can only be determined by context.

for example

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In the above passage work is an effort to gain merit based on what you do.

Faith however is not about what you do but what he does and trusting on it.
 
Thank you. I hope I will able to testify of God's love and provision for all people without the acrimony I receive at CARM
I just read through a couple of your threads on the a/c forum and they are brutal with the mockery and ad homs.
 
I just read through a couple of your threads on the a/c forum and they are brutal with the mockery and ad homs.
Oh yeah. Long on that and misinformation but short on scriptural rebuttal. Funny how it seems I am always the only one to get suspended
 
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Make sure, when you are talking about "cannot be saved by works", that you clarify what works is being talked about in Scripture. Paul says many times that it is not works in general that he is talking about, but works of the Law. Works of the Law, obedience to the Law of Moses, does not lead to salvation. But clearly there are actions that lead to receiving salvation, because Rom 10:9-10 says very clearly that confession of Jesus as Lord must be done verbally, and in Matt 10:32-33 Jesus says our confession of Him must also be public (this could be the verbal confession and also a lifestyle of obedience to Him). In other words, if no one knows you are a follower of Jesus by your actions and words, then you are not a follower of Jesus and He will not claim you in Heaven. So Scripture is not saying that there is no action at all that must be done before salvation is received. It is saying that the keeping of the Law does not lead to righteousness, because no one can keep it perfectly, and any breaking of any commandment constitutes breaking of the whole thing, and we have all already broken commandments in the Law.
Yes, Paul does refer to the works of the Law many times, which primarily would be all the ceremonial laws: Sabbath keeping, new moon observance, annual feast observance, animal sacrifices in the temple, dietary laws, etc. But I think the New Testament reference to works extends beyond those. In fact Paul speaks of works that Abraham did EVEN BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN, EVEN WORKS OF OBEDIENCE, yet Paul clearly teaches that Abraham was not justified by those -Romans 4:1-5 Rather he was justified by BELIEVING in Him who justifies the ungodly.

So trusting in ANY work, be it works of the law or not, cannot save. If I believe that feeding the homeless 6 days a week will insure my salvation, I will be in for a tragic awakening on judgment day. If I believe that selling all I own and giving it to the poor will insure my salvation, I will again be sadly surprised. If I believe that getting baptized in water (even though it is a work of obedience after salvation) will insure my salvation, I am deceived.

In fact, if you think about it, even Romans 10:9-10 is NOT PRIMARILY speaking of a verbal confession. Rather Paul is primarily speaking of believing in your heart as an on-going lifestyle. I can speak the words "Allah is Lord" or "Joseph Smith is a prophet of God", yet in my heart, I don't believe either of those are true. I can even say "Jesus is Lord" and yet not believe that in my heart. Many have done that.

Jesus said "For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart." If our hearts are filled with Jesus being our Lord, then we will verbally confess "Jesus is Lord". Romans 10:9-10 is not speaking of a one-time confession - and then you're IN. Rather it's speaking of a lifetime of believing that Jesus is Lord IN YOUR HEART, and the verbal confession will overflow from our lips, especially as we are filled with His Spirit. Remember Jesus said, "Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say?"

So you can remove water baptism and even a verbal confession that Jesus is Lord (since in many people, it's not accompanied by true belief in their hearts), from your list of works to trust in, in order to be saved, because NO work can do that, whether it's a work of the law or not.
 
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Yes, Paul does refer to the works of the Law many times, which primarily would be all the ceremonial laws: Sabbath keeping, new moon observance, annual feast observance, animal sacrifices in the temple, dietary laws, etc.
There is no separation in Scripture between the "ceremonial laws" and any other laws. It is simply referred to as "the Law", the whole, not parts and pieces.
But I think the New Testament reference to works extends beyond those. In fact Paul speaks of works that Abraham did EVEN BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN, EVEN WORKS OF OBEDIENCE, yet Paul clearly teaches that Abraham was not justified by those -Romans 4:1-5 Rather he was justified by BELIEVING in Him who justifies the ungodly.
True, and yet James, referring to the exact same quote that Paul uses ("And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness") says that it was not his belief alone, but his actions by which he was justified (And James is just as much Scripture as Paul's epistles are).
So trusting in ANY work, be it works of the law or not, cannot save.
Again, that is in direct contradiction of 1 Pet 3:21 and Rom 10:9-10. There are actions that lead to our receiving salvation. Any statement that there are not contradicts Scripture, and Scripture is always right.
If I believe that feeding the homeless 6 days a week will insure my salvation, I will be in for a tragic awakening on judgment day. If I believe that selling all I own and giving it to the poor will insure my salvation, I will again be sadly surprised.
This is absolutely correct, because Scripture does not say that these things lead to our reception of salvation.
If I believe that getting baptized in water (even though it is a work of obedience after salvation) will insure my salvation, I am deceived.
It is not a work of obedience AFTER salvation. It is the point at which salvation occurs (as Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Acts 22:16, and others state or depict).
In fact, if you think about it, even Romans 10:9-10 is NOT PRIMARILY speaking of a verbal confession. Rather Paul is primarily speaking of believing in your heart as an on-going lifestyle. I can speak the words "Allah is Lord" or "Joseph Smith is a prophet of God", yet in my heart, I don't believe either of those are true. I can even say "Jesus is Lord" and yet not believe that in my heart. Many have done that.
You certainly can say any of those things and not believe them. That is why that is not the only thing that Scripture says leads to receiving salvation. Remember Heb 5:9 which shows that obedience to Jesus is a prerequisite to salvation, and John 3:36 directly contrasts belief with obedience, making them the same.
Jesus said "For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart." If our hearts are filled with Jesus being our Lord, then we will verbally confess "Jesus is Lord". Romans 10:9-10 is not speaking of a one-time confession - and then you're IN. Rather it's speaking of a lifetime of believing that Jesus is Lord IN YOUR HEART, and the verbal confession will overflow from our lips, especially as we are filled with His Spirit. Remember Jesus said, "Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say?"
Rom 10:9-10 is not talking about the lifetime of confession and living for Christ (which is all necessary also), but it is speaking of the initial point of salvation, because it says that the verbal confession leads to salvation. Once we are saved, then yes, there is a continual requirement to confess Jesus through our life, actions, words, and thoughts. But that comes after salvation is received. The initial confession must be made verbally and publicly BEFORE salvation is received.
So you can remove water baptism and even a verbal confession that Jesus is Lord (since in many people, it's not accompanied by true belief in their hearts), from your list of works to trust in, in order to be saved, because NO work can do that, whether it's a work of the law or not.
I do not trust in these works, nor should anyone else. Trust in Christ Jesus, and obey Him when He says that these things lead to us receiving His blessings.
 
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