"Works Salvation"

All of tulip is in scripture.
Yes, the foundational passages for it are in Scripture. But every one of them is taken out of context, and an immense load of other Scriptures (the disprove the points) are ignored in the process. If a single passages disproves a theory, then the theory is meaningless. Take the verse that says, "put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam 15:3b). This is a passage from Scripture, but that doesn't mean that this is the doctrine we should follow today. Just because Scripture uses particular words, doesn't mean that those words mean what you think they mean.
 
Yes, the foundational passages for it are in Scripture. But every one of them is taken out of context, and an immense load of other Scriptures (the disprove the points) are ignored in the process. If a single passages disproves a theory, then the theory is meaningless. Take the verse that says, "put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam 15:3b). This is a passage from Scripture, but that doesn't mean that this is the doctrine we should follow today. Just because Scripture uses particular words, doesn't mean that those words mean what you think they mean.
So tulip is the Gospel premised on scripture, you reject tulip you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.
 
So tulip is the Gospel premised on scripture, you reject tulip you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.
That is not what I said at all, nor is it even remotely close to the truth in Scripture. You need to do a lot more study in the Word, and a lot less study of other men's writings (ie: Calvin).
 
If you have, then thats the testimony of scripture, nothing else to point out. Obviously you reject the scripture testimony presented to you.
All you have to say is that you cannot do it. It really isn't that difficult to post the Scriptures that YOU think say TULIP is the "Gospel of Gods Grace" if you really believe that Scripture says that. But since you have spent so much time dithering and not posting Biblical reference in a Biblical discussion, I can only conclude that you are incapable of providing the evidence to support your claims.

So we are done here until you can produce that evidence.
 
He only sings one song: "TULIP is the Gospel of Grace". He doesn't have the knowledge, apparently, to prove that. But of course, it's not found in scripture, so it could be that he knows that, and therefore does not wish to discuss it, because that would be embarrassing and yes, maybe even humbling - or humiliating.

It speaks volumes when he claims the Bible teaches what he continues to parrot, but then he is not willing or not able to show anybody his "Biblical proof", because none exists.

Someone has well said, "Truth always has the best argument." brightfame has produced NO argument, so on a scale of 0 to 10, his "argument" is a ZERO.

If two parties have a (relatively small) financial issue to settle, one party can go to Small Claims Court and sue the other party. But if one party doesn't EVEN SHOW UP, then the party that did show up automatically wins the dispute.

In this case, brightfame hasn't even shown up (he has NOT produced any evidence), so he loses by default.
 
All you have to say is that you cannot do it. It really isn't that difficult to post the Scriptures that YOU think say TULIP is the "Gospel of Gods Grace" if you really believe that Scripture says that. But since you have spent so much time dithering and not posting Biblical reference in a Biblical discussion, I can only conclude that you are incapable of providing the evidence to support your claims.

So we are done here until you can produce that evidence.
I have nothing else for you, if you reject the scripture presentation of the Truths of TULIP you reject the Gospel f Gods Grace which those truths set forth.
 
I have nothing else for you, if you reject the scripture presentation of the Truths of TULIP you reject the Gospel f Gods Grace which those truths set forth.
Thank you for confirming that you do not have the ability to support your claim. All you have is repeating your claim as if that proves your point (which it does not). I have proven, through Scripture, that TULIP is unBiblical and a completely false doctrine.

As I said before, when you have evidence that you can present to support/prove your claim, come back and see me. Until then, we are done here.
 
Just wow. TULIP is the Gospel? Then why is it never mentioned in Scripture? Why are the four books of the Bible that we call "The Gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) completely devoid of any reference to TULIP?

Well, let's see.
Could it be because Matt 23:37 disproves "total depravity"? If Jesus (God) wants to gather Jerusalem under His "wing", but can't because Jerusalem is "unwilling", doesn't that show that Jerusalem's unwillingness to be gathered has an impact on God's ability/willingness/capacity to gather her? Thus, total depravity is false. Man can seek God, and can impact God's ability to gather him to Himself.

Could it be because Luke 10:41-42 disproves "unconditional election" because it says that our choices impact our reward?

Could it be because John 3:16 disproves "limited atonement" because it says that Jesus died for "all the world", not just a few? Jesus went on to say in Matt 7:7-8 that everyone who seeks will find, and everyone who asks will receive, and everyone who knocks the door will be opened to him.

Could it be because Matt 28:19-20 disproves "irresistible grace" because it says that those who choose to believe will be saved (not that those who will be saved will choose to believe).

Could it be because John 12:32 disproves "predestination" because it says that when Jesus was lifted up (on the cross) He drew "all men" to Himself, but only those who choose Him will be saved by Him (see limited atonement above).

So we can see that the Gospels disprove TULIP, not confirm it. We see that the Gospel is not TULIP. Jesus told us to go and preach the Gospel to the whole world (Matt 29:19). So when Phillip was sent to the eunuch, what did he preach? Acts 8:35 says that, "beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him." He preached Jesus to him, not TULIP.
Correct it has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus and the Apostles teaching on the gospel. its an unbiblical gospel.
 

Comparing Arminian and Calvinist Soteriological Frameworks​


The following will compare the soteriology of Arminianism with Calvinism. Calvinism soteriology is most often associated with the acronym TULIP while Arminian soteriology does not have a universally accepted acronym.


Total Depravity​


This is the one point that both agree on. As a consequence of the fall, mankind is totally depraved. This does not mean he is as bad as he can possibly be. But it does mean that he is incapable, in his own efforts, of coming to God for salvation. Apart from the working of God’s grace, there can be no salvation.


Election​


Arminian soteriology holds to a conditional election. God elects, or chooses, all of those who respond in faith to his gift of salvation. We are able to respond, not because of something innately in us, but because of the enabling of the Holy Spirit via prevenient grace. The logical progression of salvation starts with the working of the Holy Spirit, enabling faith; a human response to the offer of salvation; and then regeneration.


Calvinist soteriology holds to what they call an unconditional election. That God sovereignly chooses some for salvation, independently of anything that the one chosen may believe or do. The logical ordering in salvation starts with God choosing those who will be saved; then regenerating and granting faith to the chosen, and then faith is exercised by the chosen and regenerated.


Atonement​


Arminianism holds to unlimited atonement. Christ’s atoning work on the cross was for all people, although it is effective only for those who believe. This is not universalism. While the atonement was for all, only those who believe receive its benefit.


Calvinism, on the other hand, generally holds to limited atonement. Christ’s atoning work on the cross was only for the elect. Atonement is only available for those God has foreordained to salvation. Some Calvinists reject this and accept unlimited atonement. This is also the point at which Lutherans disagree with Calvinists, rejecting limited atonement.


Resistibility of Grace​


Arminian soteriology argues that the prevenient grace of God that is given to the unbeliever enables faith. Salvation is then offered as a gift that may either be accepted or rejected. The work of the Holy Spirit is resistible.


In contrast, Calvinism holds to irresistible grace. The Holy Spirit works in the life of the elect to bring them into a relationship with Christ. This working of the Holy Spirit is irresistible, all of the foreordained will come to faith.


Persistence of Salvation​


This is the point that divides Arminians. We all believe that those who persist in their faith will be saved in the end. Some believe that all true believers will persist. Others accept the possibility that true believers have the ability to turn their backs on the grace of God. And, as a result, lose their salvation.


The Sovereignty of God​


As you can see, there are some significant differences in how John Calvin and Jacob Arminius, and their respective followers, view the doctrine of salvation. But more significant than these differences is how they view the character of God. While both view God as sovereign, they understand the sovereignty of God in different ways. For the Calvinist, sovereignty implies complete and total control of everything that happens in the creation. If anyone is able to perform some action or make some decision that is not at God’s direction, then God is not sovereign.


This issue of this understanding of God’s sovereignty is what led Jacob Arminius to reject the soteriology of Calvinism. He saw divine determinism (God determines everything) as making God the author of sin. And that, to him, removed any real responsibility for sin from humanity. If a person can only act in accordance with God’s decrees, then when they sin it is a result of God’s decree; it is what God wanted them to do. For Arminius, God was sovereign over all of his creation. But that sovereignty included God’s permissive will, allowing humanity to act at odds with God’s desired will. But even as God allows evil, he uses it to accomplish his purpose. Our human choices are never unexpected or allowed to interfere with God’s purpose in creation.


The Doctrine of Predestination​


The other issue Arminius had with the Calvinism of his day is in their related doctrine of predestination. Calvin modeled his doctrine of predestination after Augustine. God has chosen some to salvation prior to creation, irrespective of anything the individual might be or do. God seemingly arbitrarily chooses some to salvation. Some Calvinists will also argue that God has specifically chosen the rest of humanity to an eternity in hell. Others argue against that double predestination, but the result is the same. If you are not among the chosen, you are among the damned. To Arminius, this pictured God as a monster; creating some humans with no actual hope of escaping from the fires of hell.


Instead, Arminius, appealing to the Scripture as well as the early church fathers, argued that God loves all of humanity. An that he enables everyone to believe. Those that he foreknows will respond in faith he elects, while those who do not are condemned to damnation. But that condemnation is a result of a rejection of God’s grace, not an arbitrary action on God’s part. The Calvinist will argue that my choice to accept God’s offer of grace is an action on my part. Thus making salvation at least partly based on my own efforts. But Arminius responded that a free gift received, is still a free gift. My accepting the gift does not in any way constitute an earning of that gift on my part.


Free Will​


Calvinists accuse Arminians of focusing on human free will, although they also claim to accept it after a fashion. But Arminius’ use of human free will was not to elevate humanity. Rather it was to make them responsible for their own sin, rather than making God responsible for it. Salvation is no less a work of God because I have the ability to accept or reject it.
 
Thank you for confirming that you do not have the ability to support your claim. All you have is repeating your claim as if that proves your point (which it does not). I have proven, through Scripture, that TULIP is unBiblical and a completely false doctrine.

As I said before, when you have evidence that you can present to support/prove your claim, come back and see me. Until then, we are done here.
As an Arminian Christian I am in agreement with you Doug Brents. The Calvinist position is untenable.
 
Thank you for confirming that you do not have the ability to support your claim. All you have is repeating your claim as if that proves your point (which it does not). I have proven, through Scripture, that TULIP is unBiblical and a completely false doctrine.

As I said before, when you have evidence that you can present to support/prove your claim, come back and see me. Until then, we are done here.
Thank you for confirming you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace. Theres no other way friend.
 
Thank you for confirming you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace. Theres no other way friend.
There is another way. You could admit that you are wrong, that you have no evidence, and that you are holding to your position only because of your hard heart, pride, and complete indoctrination in your false doctrine.
 
There is another way. You could admit that you are wrong, that you have no evidence, and that you are holding to your position only because of your hard heart, pride, and complete indoctrination in your false doctrine.
Oh No, you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace set forth in the acronym TULIP, you have been presented with scripture on how its so !
 
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