"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Oh No, you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace set forth in the acronym TULIP, you have been presented with scripture on how its so !

No, I have not seen any Scripture YOU have posted that support TULIP. When YOU post the passages YOU believe supports your theory, then we can discuss those passages. I have posted the passages that destroy TULIP, but you have not wanted to discuss them. You have only restated your position, with no support. Give support from Scripture for your position, or quit stating your position.

 

[brightfame52]

No, I have not seen any Scripture YOU have posted that support TULIP. When YOU post the passages YOU believe supports your theory, then we can discuss those passages. I have posted the passages that destroy TULIP, but you have not wanted to discuss them. You have only restated your position, with no support. Give support from Scripture for your position, or quit stating your position.

It doesnt matter who posted it, If you know what tulip is, you read it and are accountable. You have read plenty of my threads, they all are grounded in the Gospel, TULIP

 

[Doug Brents]

It doesnt matter who posted it, If you know what tulip is, you read it and are accountable. You have read plenty of my threads, they all are grounded in the Gospel, TULIP

I have seen absolutely zero posts that you have made that contain passages of Scripture that support TULIP being the "Gospel of Gods Grace". NONE.

So you have provided no support for your claim. Please do so.

 

[dwight92070]

brightfame52 is actually a ROBOT. Doug, you are speaking to a ROBOT. Which is what Calvinism does to persons who sell their soul to it.

 

[dwight92070]

I thought of the perfect belated Christmas gift for brightfame52. It's a little toy ostrich that, when you wind it up, continually sticks his head in the sand. Each time he comes up for air, he says, "TULIP is the gospel of grace. TULIP is the gospel of grace.", then he puts his head back in the sand.

 

[dwight92070]

Acts 3:19 - "Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away ..." Notice here in Peter's second sermon that he does not tell them that they must be baptized in order for their sins to be forgiven. The only requirement for their sins to be forgiven was to "repent and return". About five thousand men believed that day, but Peter said NOTHING about the need for them to be baptized. It's obvious that Peter and John could not baptize anyone at that time because they were thrown in jail until the next day. But they were released the next day and Peter and John went to their fellow believers (Acts 4:23). You would think, if baptism was necessary for the salvation of those 5000 men, that this would be the perfect time for Peter and John and their companions to baptize all of them. But baptism is not even mentioned here.

Also note Acts 3:12 where Peter says "And there is salvation in no one else (or anything else, like baptism); for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men (or any other activity, like baptism) by which we must be saved."

Then in Acts 5:31 Peter and the apostles said "He (Jesus) is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins (no mention of baptism even though they repent and have their sins forgiven)."

 

[Doug Brents]

Acts 3:19 - "Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away ..." Notice here in Peter's second sermon that he does not tell them that they must be baptized in order for their sins to be forgiven.

We do not know that he did not tell them to be baptized. We only know that it is not recorded that he told them. But that does not mean anything, because if something is commanded (for all people of all times) in one place in Scripture, then it is a command for all people of all times regardless of what is not said in another place in Scripture.

The only requirement for their sins to be forgiven was to "repent and return". About five thousand men believed that day, but Peter said NOTHING about the need for them to be baptized. It's obvious that Peter and John could not baptize anyone at that time because they were thrown in jail until the next day. But they were released the next day and Peter and John went to their fellow believers (Acts 4:23). You would think, if baptism was necessary for the salvation of those 5000 men, that this would be the perfect time for Peter and John and their companions to baptize all of them. But baptism is not even mentioned here.

Slight correction here. The total of the number of men in the Church came to be 5000 (not 5000 more were added)(Acts 4:4). It is almost certain that the men who were already part of the Church were the ones to baptize the ones who came to believe after Peter and John were thrown into prison.

Also note Acts 3:12 where Peter says "And there is salvation in no one else (or anything else, like baptism); for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men (or any other activity, like baptism) by which we must be saved."

This is you adding to Scripture. It is very clear from Gal 3:26-29 and other passages that we are baptized INTO Christ and thus united to Him, His death, and His resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Baptism is not an end in itself, but the means which God mandated for us to become united to His Son.

Then in Acts 5:31 Peter and the apostles said "He (Jesus) is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins (no mention of baptism even though they repent and have their sins forgiven)."

Again, the lack of any mention of baptism in this passage is not proof of anything. The fact is that Eph 4:5-6 says there is one baptism of consequence in the NT Church, and Matt 28:19 says that baptism is something man does, and Mark 16:16 says that baptism is required for salvation, and 1 Pet 3:21 associates the baptism in water as the baptism that saves, and Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 state that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ. All of these facts indicate that it is during baptism that we enter into Christ, and it is when we are "in Christ" that we are saved (not before).

 

[dwight92070]

We do not know that he did not tell them to be baptized. We only know that it is not recorded that he told them. But that does not mean anything, because if something is commanded (for all people of all times) in one place in Scripture, then it is a command for all people of all times regardless of what is not said in another place in Scripture.

Dwight -That does not mean anything??? EVERY SCRIPTURE means something. How is it that the Word of God would leave out the part that actually saves, which is water baptism, according to you? Well the Word did NOT leave out anything that is necessary for salvation, nor did Peter: "Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away." (Salvation)

Dwight - How about Acts 10:43? "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Peter is speaking here again to Cornelius' household. Did the word of God, spoken through Peter, leave out the part that actually saves them (water baptism)? Again? NO, Peter told them clearly how they could be saved and how they could receive forgiveness of sins- by believing in Jesus. PERIOD! Then what happened? Verse 44 tells us the Holy Spirit fell on them! How is that possible - since they STILL were not yet baptized in water?? Do you actually believe that even though they believed in Jesus AND the Holy Spirit fell on them, that they were NOT YET SAVED, because they had not yet been baptized??? If you believe that, then YOU are the one adding to scripture. Salvation had occurred, the Holy Spirit had fallen on them, BOTH happening BEFORE they were baptized in verses 47 and 48.

Dwight - Water baptism is essential for obedience, but not essential for salvation.

This is you adding to Scripture. It is very clear from Gal 3:26-29 and other passages that we are baptized INTO Christ and thus united to Him, His death, and His resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Baptism is not an end in itself, but the means which God mandated for us to become united to His Son.

Again, the lack of any mention of baptism in this passage is not proof of anything. The fact is that Eph 4:5-6 says there is one baptism of consequence in the NT Church, and Matt 28:19 says that baptism is something man does, and Mark 16:16 says that baptism is required for salvation, and 1 Pet 3:21 associates the baptism in water as the baptism that saves, and Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 state that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ. All of these facts indicate that it is during baptism that we enter into Christ, and it is when we are "in Christ" that we are saved (not before).

Dwight - Col. 2:11, as I have said before, speaks of the circumcision of the removal of the body of flesh, which is the "old man" of our tendency to sin. It's a circumcision "made without hands", that is a circumcision of our hearts that only Christ can perform. It's called salvation, a totally spiritual experience also known as being born again. Water baptism, on the other hand, is a physical experience, performed WITH THE HANDS of one or two persons who lower the person in the water and lift them out of the water. It is also spiritual in the sense that the person is being obedient to God and to Jesus, and sometimes the person is filled with the Holy Spirit or baptized with the Spirit during baptism, even though they already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. But Biblically, it's never done to get saved, but it's done because the person is already saved.

Neither Col. 2:11-14 or Romans 6:1-4 specifically state that water baptism "removes our sins", as you say.

Acts 11:14 Peter is recounting what happened to him at Cornelius house and his trance before that. "and he (Peter) will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."

When were they saved? When they were baptized in water? NO Salvation occurred when they heard (and obviously believed) the words of the gospel of the kingdom, which Jesus and all the apostles and Paul preached as well.
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus (not water baptism), in the same way as they also are." (Peter)

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight - Col. 2:11, as I have said before, speaks of the circumcision of the removal of the body of flesh, which is the "old man" of our tendency to sin. It's a circumcision "made without hands", that is a circumcision of our hearts that only Christ can perform.

Yes, and as it says, that occurs DURING BAPTISM.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
It is in baptism that we are buried with Christ and in baptism that we are raised with Him, and this is the circumcision of the Holy Spirit that removes our sins and the "body of the flesh".

It's called salvation, a totally spiritual experience also known as being born again. Water baptism, on the other hand, is a physical experience, performed WITH THE HANDS of one or two persons who lower the person in the water and lift them out of the water. It is also spiritual in the sense that the person is being obedient to God and to Jesus, and sometimes the person is filled with the Holy Spirit or baptized with the Spirit during baptism, even though they already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the result of water baptism (Acts 2:38). We are not indwelt by the Spirit until we are in Christ which happens when we are baptized into Him.

But Biblically, it's never done to get saved, but it's done because the person is already saved.

Neither Col. 2:11-14 or Romans 6:1-4 specifically state that water baptism "removes our sins", as you say.

Col 2:11-12 does say that the Holy Spirit removes our sins when we are united with Christ during baptism.
Rom 6:1-4 does say that we are united with Jesus' death during baptism, and through His death we are united with His resurrection (which only happens when our sins are removed).

 

[dwight92070]

Yes, and as it says, that occurs DURING BAPTISM.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
It is in baptism that we are buried with Christ and in baptism that we are raised with Him

Dwight - Correct. With a qualifier. Christ was actually buried in a tomb. To say that we were buried with Him (in baptism) is obviously NOT LITERAL. None of us were literally in His tomb. Christ actually rose from the dead. None of us literally rose from the dead with Him (in baptism). But SPIRITUALLY our old man died and was buried with Christ and SPIRITUALLY our new man was raised, NOW IN CHRIST - WHEN WE REPENTED AND BELIEVED IN HIM. So, I say it again, baptism is like a ceremony that depicts what happened in our hearts BEFORE we were baptized.

and this is the circumcision of the Holy Spirit that removes our sins and the "body of the flesh".

Dwight - Incorrect, water baptism is not the circumcision of the Holy Spirit and those verses don't say that it is. That takes place when we repent and believe in Him.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the result of water baptism (Acts 2:38).

Dwight - Incorrect, if anyone person does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (which means they're saved), then they should not be baptized. You don't baptize unsaved people. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the result of repentance and faith (salvation), not water baptism.

We are not indwelt by the Spirit until we are in Christ

Dwight - Correct, at the time of our salvation, when we repented and believed in Jesus.

which happens when we are baptized into Him.

Dwight - Incorrect. So the Holy Spirit fell on all of Cornelius' family and friends, even before they were baptized. So you believe that even though the Holy Spirit fell on them, that they were not yet saved?



Col 2:11-12 does say that the Holy Spirit removes our sins when we are united with Christ during baptism.

Dwight - Incorrect. The word "sins" does not even appear in those two verses. The words "Holy Spirit" do not appear there either. Why are you adding those words to the scripture here? When you do that, you change the meaning of the verses. Let the word speak for itself, without adding words. The "removal of the body of flesh" is called "the circumcision of Christ" here, "MADE WITHOUT HANDS". Therefore it CANNOT be referring to water baptism, which is a ceremony MADE WITH HANDS to represent or depict what happened when we PREVIOUSLY got saved. Our old man is put to death and our new man is raised. Then we are in Christ. This does not happen in baptism. Baptism is only a physical "picture" of what actually happened in the Spirit and in the heart.

Rom 6:1-4 does say that we are united with Jesus' death during baptism, and through His death we are united with His resurrection (which only happens when our sins are removed).

Incorrect, it's a "picture" of our being united with him when our sins were removed BEFORE THAT, at the time of the new birth, which is salvation. The actual uniting took place when we repented and believed - THAT is when our sins were removed.

 

[Doug Brents]

Correct. With a qualifier. Christ was actually buried in a tomb. To say that we were buried with Him (in baptism) is obviously NOT LITERAL. None of us were literally in His tomb. Christ actually rose from the dead. None of us literally rose from the dead with Him (in baptism). But SPIRITUALLY our old man died and was buried with Christ and SPIRITUALLY our new man was raised, NOW IN CHRIST - WHEN WE REPENTED AND BELIEVED IN HIM. So, I say it again, baptism is like a ceremony that depicts what happened in our hearts BEFORE we were baptized.

You say that the old man died spiritually and was raised spiritually "when we repented and believed in Him". What does Scripture say? When does Scripture say these things happen? It says nothing about when we believed in Rom 6:1-4, nor in Col 2:11-14. No, Scripture says that these things happen during baptism.

Incorrect, water baptism is not the circumcision of the Holy Spirit and those verses don't say that it is. That takes place when we repent and believe in Him.

Water baptism is not the circumcision of the Holy Spirit, that would be correct. But the circumcision of the Holy Spirit does occur during water baptism.
Incorrect, if anyone person does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (which means they're saved), then they should not be baptized. You don't baptize unsaved people. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the result of repentance and faith (salvation), not water baptism.
That is your opinion. But not what Scripture says. Saul was not saved when Ananias baptized him. The Jews in Acts 2 were not saved when the Apostles (and potentially the rest of the 120) baptized them. Cornelius was not yet saved when Peter baptized him. And 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is baptism (like the Flood, ie: in water) that now saves us.

Incorrect. So the Holy Spirit fell on all of Cornelius' family and friends, even before they were baptized. So you believe that even though the Holy Spirit fell on them, that they were not yet saved?

No, Cornelius and his family and friends were not saved until Peter baptized them. Read Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16. What do they say? Teachers of the Gospel are to go and baptize the disciples (learners) who believe the Gospel (that is an action that the teacher takes (not the Holy Spirit)). And those who believe the Gospel AND are baptized will be saved. The baptism here, the one that brings about salvation, is the action taken by the teacher. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the one who actually removes our sin, but that occurs during (or as a result of) water baptism. Cornelius received miraculous wonders, but not the indwelling of the Spirit (and not forgiveness of sins) because he had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, nor is there any indication that he had repented.

Incorrect. The word "sins" does not even appear in those two verses. The words "Holy Spirit" do not appear there either. Why are you adding those words to the scripture here? When you do that, you change the meaning of the verses. Let the word speak for itself, without adding words. The "removal of the body of flesh" is called "the circumcision of Christ" here, "MADE WITHOUT HANDS". Therefore it CANNOT be referring to water baptism, which is a ceremony MADE WITH HANDS to represent or depict what happened when we PREVIOUSLY got saved. Our old man is put to death and our new man is raised. Then we are in Christ. This does not happen in baptism. Baptism is only a physical "picture" of what actually happened in the Spirit and in the heart.

Yes, Col 2:11-12 does talk about sin and the Holy Spirit. Sins is what constitutes the "body of the flesh", and the Holy Spirit is the One "without hands" that is doing the work or removing the "body of the flesh". It is you who are changing what the Word says when your preconceptions force you to see "previously" in the timing. Read the Word without the preconception coloring the lens through which you are looking. What does the Word say?
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
We were buried with Christ in baptism (Scripture's words, not mine), and in baptism were raised with Him. In baptism, not in belief, not in repentance; in baptism. The old man goes into the water and dies (is put on the cross with Christ), and the new (resurrected) man comes out of the water united with Christ.

Incorrect, it's a "picture" of our being united with him when our sins were removed BEFORE THAT, at the time of the new birth, which is salvation. The actual uniting took place when we repented and believed - THAT is when our sins were removed.

Again, that is not what Scripture says; that is your preconception talking.
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life."
Baptized into His death and "Buried with Him through baptism into death" (thus the old man died with Christ during baptism). Baptism, not repentance, not belief; baptism is the point at which SCRIPTURE says we are united with Jesus' death and resurrection.

If you have to change the Scriptures (ie: saying things happen in belief or repentance when they happen during baptism) to make your doctrine fit, then it is your doctrine that is wrong, not the Scriptures. Sins are forgiven

 

[dwight92070]

You say that the old man died spiritually and was raised spiritually "when we repented and believed in Him". What does Scripture say? When does Scripture say these things happen? It says nothing about when we believed in Rom 6:1-4, nor in Col 2:11-14. No, Scripture says that these things happen during baptism.

Dwight - Did you forget? Paul is writing to believers, both in Rome and Colossians. And how did they become believers? Was it (repentance and) faith or being baptized in water? Romans 1:5-6 " ... to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ" (He must have forgot about the necessity of them being water baptized before they could be saved.)..
Dwight - Colossians 1:2 - "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ ..." Again, no mention of water baptism being the prerequisite of salvation here. In fact, if water baptism was necessary to even be a saint, i.e. a saved person, Paul should have mentioned that in every greeting in each of his letters. But he only mentions the high priority items first, the things which bring about salvation. Later, he brings up baptism.

Dwight- Philip required whole-hearted belief BEFORE he was willing to baptize the Ethiopian eunuch in water. So once again, you are mistaken. Philip wasn't going to baptize him in water first, and then declare that he was saved. So contrary to what you have been saying, repentance and belief DOES precede water baptism, Biblically. I'm not adding anything to scripture in saying this. You are adding to scripture by saying that salvation only occurs after or during water baptism. The FIRST command HAD to be obeyed (Repentance and belief) BEFORE the SECOND command was obeyed. (Baptism in water)

Water baptism is not the circumcision of the Holy Spirit, that would be correct. But the circumcision of the Holy Spirit does occur during water baptism.
Dwight - Incorrect, if anyone person does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (which means they're saved), then they should not be baptized. You don't baptize unsaved people. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the result of repentance and faith (salvation), not water baptism.

That is your opinion. But not what Scripture says. Saul was not saved when Ananias baptized him. The Jews in Acts 2 were not saved when the Apostles (and potentially the rest of the 120) baptized them.

Dwight - Of course they were! Peter required it! He said "Repent (first) and each of you be baptized (second)in the name of Jesus Christ ..." He did NOT say, "Each of you be baptized, so that you can get saved."

Cornelius was not yet saved when Peter baptized him.
Dwight -I can't believe you would say this. So the Holy Spirit fell on unsaved people?

Dwight - So I guess Ananias was mistaken when he called Saul, "Brother Saul" BEFORE he baptized him in water. No, the work of salvation, the circumcision of Christ, was done in Saul's heart shortly after Jesus told him, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting." Jesus clearly told us who were His true brothers, sisters, and mothers - His disciples, believers. Ananias knew this, he did NOT accidentally identify Saul as a brother. As in all the scripture, repentance and faith precedes water baptism. This is not me reading anything into scripture. Rather you are reading the error that "baptism in water saves" into the scripture. Jesus saves, not water baptism.

No, Cornelius and his family and friends were not saved until Peter baptized them. Read Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16. What do they say? Teachers of the Gospel are to go and baptize the disciples (learners) who believe the Gospel (that is an action that the teacher takes (not the Holy Spirit)). And those who believe the Gospel AND are baptized will be saved. The baptism here, the one that brings about salvation, is the action taken by the teacher. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the one who actually removes our sin, but that occurs during (or as a result of) water baptism. Cornelius received miraculous wonders, but not the indwelling of the Spirit (and not forgiveness of sins) because he had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, nor is there any indication that he had repented.

Dwight The Holy Spirit knew exactly when the work of salvation was done in Cornelius' heart and in the hearts of his family. As soon as they believed in their hearts, the Holy Spirit fell upon all of them.

Yes, Col 2:11-12 does talk about sin and the Holy Spirit. Sins is what constitutes the "body of the flesh", and the Holy Spirit is the One "without hands" that is doing the work or removing the "body of the flesh". It is you who are changing what the Word says when your preconceptions force you to see "previously" in the timing. Read the Word without the preconception coloring the lens through which you are looking. What does the Word say?
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
We were buried with Christ in baptism (Scripture's words, not mine), and in baptism were raised with Him. In baptism, not in belief, not in repentance; in baptism. The old man goes into the water and dies (is put on the cross with Christ), and the new (resurrected) man comes out of the water united with Christ.

Again, that is not what Scripture says; that is your preconception talking.
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life."
Baptized into His death and "Buried with Him through baptism into death" (thus the old man died with Christ during baptism). Baptism, not repentance, not belief; baptism is the point at which SCRIPTURE says we are united with Jesus' death and resurrection.

Dwight - So I guess Philip was mistaken, when the Ethiopian eunuch, after hearing the gospel message from Philip, requested to be baptized in water, and Philip answered him, "IF YOU BELIEVE with all your heart, YOU MAY." Repentance and believing, which is salvation, precedes water baptism.

If you have to change the Scriptures (ie: saying things happen in belief or repentance when they happen during baptism) to make your doctrine fit, then it is your doctrine that is wrong, not the Scriptures. Sins are forgiven

Dwight -Col. 2:11 "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, ..."
When a baby or a man is circumcised, the hands of men are needed to perform the procedure. So we know that physical circumcision cannot be the circumcision of Christ. When a believer is baptized in water, the hands of men are needed to lower him into the water, and again to raise him up from the water. So also, we know that physical baptism in water cannot be the circumcision of Christ. Both physical circumcision and physical baptism in water require human hands. However whenever someone receives the circumcision of Christ, no human hands are used or needed, because this circumcision is spiritual, a work done in the heart, not a physical work done with human hands.

Dwight1 Peter 3:20-21 In verse 20, Peter says that "eight souls were saved through water." Did you notice that the water did not save them, but the Ark did?
Likewise the waters of baptism do not save anyone (Peter says baptism cannot remove the body of flesh - sin, but the TRUE ARK - JESUS does save through (His death and resurrection)
Verse 21 "There is also an antitype which also "saves" (Peter is using a play on words here, to match the use of the word "saved" in verse 20.) us - baptism. Then, in case anyone mistakenly thinks that he is saying that baptism literally saves them, he explains that baptism is "not the removal of the filth of the flesh (sin) but the answer of a good conscience toward God."
When we have our conscience cleansed, "through the 'death and' resurrection of Jesus Christ.", we respond or answer by wanting to obey Him in being baptized.

 

[dwight92070]

Peter says "wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water, which FIGURE also now saves us - baptism. 1 Peter 3:20-21. Did you catch that? Peter calls water baptism a "figure", or "antitupos 499 in Strong's" in the Greek, which means "antitype". Webster's defines "figure" as "a representation or likeness of a person or thing".
So, as I have been saying all along, only I used different words, water baptism is a representation or likeness of salvation, a figure of salvation, not salvation itself. Peter calls it an antitype of Noah and his family being saved by water. I think I called it a picture or depiction of salvation.

Many of you remember typewriters. On a typewriter, the type, or metal die, strikes the paper, which leaves an image or impression on the paper, which could be called "the antitype". Let's say the metal die (or type) was the letter "a". Well, after it strikes the paper, we will see an image on the paper of the letter "a". That image is NOT the actual metal die, but it is a picture or image of that die.

Water baptism is an image of or picture of salvation, not salvation itself. Or we could say, according to Peter, that baptism is the image of (eight) souls being saved by water. Peter wants to make sure we don't misunderstand his analogy. Baptism is "NOT the removal of (sin) the filth of the flesh" - getting saved or born again through the blood of Jesus is what removes sin, that is His death, burial, and resurrection - and gives us righteousness. But baptism is a representation of that.

But did the water save Noah and his family? No, actually the ark saved them. The water is what brought judgment on the whole world. Does water baptism save us? No, actually faith in Jesus saves us. The water in baptism is a figure of judgment on the old man, which died and needed to be buried. Jesus could be called the antitype of the ark, which would be the type.

Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." That is, once the Jews find Christ, they have found righteousness. There's no further need to try to be righteous through the law. Of course, that applies to us Gentiles too. Once we find Christ, nothing else is necessary for righteousness, which is salvation. Not works, not water baptism, (which is a work), not anything. Now, AFTER you're saved, then and only then, should you obey the Lord and be baptized in water.

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight -Col. 2:11 "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, ..."
When a baby or a man is circumcised, the hands of men are needed to perform the procedure. So we know that physical circumcision cannot be the circumcision of Christ. When a believer is baptized in water, the hands of men are needed to lower him into the water, and again to raise him up from the water. So also, we know that physical baptism in water cannot be the circumcision of Christ. Both physical circumcision and physical baptism in water require human hands. However whenever someone receives the circumcision of Christ, no human hands are used or needed, because this circumcision is spiritual, a work done in the heart, not a physical work done with human hands.

Look at Col 2:11-12, and tell me if the "circumcision without hands" and baptism mentioned are the same thing. I'll help you out, they are not.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
The circumcision without hands is performed by the Holy Spirit during the time when one is buried with Christ in baptism. Because it is during (in which) baptism that we are raised with Christ. The old dead man of sin goes into the water, and the newly alive man of righteousness comes out of the water.

Dwight1 Peter 3:20-21 In verse 20, Peter says that "eight souls were saved through water." Did you notice that the water did not save them, but the Ark did?
Likewise the waters of baptism do not save anyone (Peter says baptism cannot remove the body of flesh - sin, but the TRUE ARK - JESUS does save through (His death and resurrection)

Read what Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water", and "baptism now saves you". No, the water did/does not save either one, but it was the passing through the water by which both are/were saved.

Verse 21 "There is also an antitype which also "saves" (Peter is using a play on words here, to match the use of the word "saved" in verse 20.) us - baptism. Then, in case anyone mistakenly thinks that he is saying that baptism literally saves them, he explains that baptism is "not the removal of the filth of the flesh (sin) but the answer of a good conscience toward God."
When we have our conscience cleansed, "through the 'death and' resurrection of Jesus Christ.", we respond or answer by wanting to obey Him in being baptized.

Peter is not talking about removing physical dirt from our bodies (as the Jewish traditions stipulated as the purpose of dipping hands, plates, glasses, etc. in water before eating), but is talking about the cleansing of our soul by the Holy Spirit during the immersion. The clear conscience does not come before water baptism, just as the new man does not come before the old man goes into the water to die and be remade by the Holy Spirit.

 

[dwight92070]

Look at Col 2:11-12, and tell me if the "circumcision without hands" and baptism mentioned are the same thing. I'll help you out, they are not.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
The circumcision without hands is performed by the Holy Spirit during the time when one is buried with Christ in baptism. Because it is during (in which) baptism that we are raised with Christ. The old dead man of sin goes into the water, and the newly alive man of righteousness comes out of the water.

Dwight - Of course they are not. "Circumcision without hands is salvation or it's also called the "circumcision of Christ. Baptism is a "figure" of salvation, a representation of it. Just because it says "having been buried with Him in baptism" does NOT mean that the "circumcision made without hands" happens at the same time as baptism, That is your assumption. You totally ignore the fact that Peter calls baptism a "figure" or a representation of the work of God in saving a person. You also ignore the fact that water baptism is a work and we are not saved by any work. We are saved by grace through faith.

Read what Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water", and "baptism now saves you". No, the water did/does not save either one, but it was the passing through the water by which both are/were saved.

Dwight - That would be a work. We are not saved by works. Christianity 101. That would be a work performed by human hands. Salvation is not a circumcision performed with human hands. No hands are necessary to be saved.

Peter is not talking about removing physical dirt from our bodies (as the Jewish traditions stipulated as the purpose of dipping hands, plates, glasses, etc. in water before eating), but is talking about the cleansing of our soul by the Holy Spirit during the immersion. The clear conscience does not come before water baptism, just as the new man does not come before the old man goes into the water to die and be remade by the Holy Spirit.

Dwight - I never said he was talking about physical dirt. I said he was talking about removing the sins of the old man at salvation. Peter says that this does not happen when someone is baptised.

Dwight - Wrong on both counts. The Bible says it's the blood of Christ that cleanses our conscience, not water baptism, and Yes, that cleansing takes place before water baptism. Apparently you ignore that Philip required "believing with your whole heart" BEFORE he would baptize the Ethiopian eunuch, that is, salvation comes before water baptism.
Biblically, only a new man can be baptized in water. Tell me where the Bible says that unbelievers are to be baptized in water. You won't find that.

 

[TomL]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

Works Salvation is the attempt to merit salvation based on the works we do

Calvinists often accuse non Calvinists of trying to earn salvation based upon their understanding of the instrumentality of faith

This is error, as Paul shows in Romans

Romans 4:1–5 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Salvation is through faith

That is dia in the Greek language.

It speak of

means, instrument, agency: by means of, through, with.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 180.

And it points to faith as the instrumental cause of Salvation

As even these admit

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkhof states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

 

[Ahar]

Works Salvation is the attempt to merit salvation based on the works we do

Calvinists often accuse non Calvinists of trying to earn salvation based upon their understanding of the instrumentality of faith

This is error, as Paul shows in Romans

Romans 4:1–5 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Salvation is through faith

That is dia in the Greek language.

It speak of

means, instrument, agency: by means of, through, with.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 180.

And it points to faith as the instrumental cause of Salvation

As even these admit

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkhof states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

Good to see you over here Tom just with this place needed

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight - I never said he was talking about physical dirt. I said he was talking about removing the sins of the old man at salvation. Peter says that this does not happen when someone is baptised.

Physical dirt was what Peter was talking about when he said that was not what baptism does. But he goes on to say that baptism is a request to God for a clean conscience. It is not an appeal FROM a clean conscience. And you can see this in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 where Paul tells us that it is during baptism that our sin is cut from us and we are united with Jesus' death and resurrection. This is during baptism, not before.

Dwight - Wrong on both counts. The Bible says it's the blood of Christ that cleanses our conscience, not water baptism,

You are correct that the Bible says it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from our sin, but it also says that this occurs DURING water baptism.

and Yes, that cleansing takes place before water baptism.

Not before.

Apparently you ignore that Philip required "believing with your whole heart" BEFORE he would baptize the Ethiopian eunuch, that is, salvation comes before water baptism.

No, I don't ignore that fact. I celebrate it, because it is consistent with the rest of Scripture that says we must believe, repent, and confess Jesus as Lord before baptism has any meaning. If we don't believe, then we would just get wet if we were baptized. If we don't repent, then we cannot be forgiven, because we cannot be forgiven for a sin we are still living in. And if Jesus is not our Lord, then none of the rest matters one jot. So yes, it was proper for Philip to ask if the Eunuch believed before he baptized him. But the believing did not remove his sins before he was baptized.

Biblically, only a new man can be baptized in water. Tell me where the Bible says that unbelievers are to be baptized in water. You won't find that.

ONLY the old man needs to be baptized. The new man is already clean. But the new man is not created until the old man goes into the water (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4). As I already said, it makes no difference if unbelievers are baptized, because they only get wet when they go into the water. But for one who believes, the Holy Spirit meets him in the water and removes his sin, and unites him with Jesus' death and resurrection. Thus the old man enters the water, dies, and is resurrected a new man in Christ during baptism.

 

[Seabass]

Works Salvation is the attempt to merit salvation based on the works we do

Calvinists often accuse non Calvinists of trying to earn salvation based upon their understanding of the instrumentality of faith

This is error, as Paul shows in Romans

Romans 4:1–5 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Salvation is through faith

That is dia in the Greek language.

It speak of

means, instrument, agency: by means of, through, with.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 180.

And it points to faith as the instrumental cause of Salvation

As even these admit

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkhof states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

Some have gone to such extremes to claim obedience to God is a work of merit, therefore try and claim salvation can be obtained apart from obedience to God's will, that is, salvation can be obtained while living in disobedience to God's will. Paul clearly wrote of "obedence unto righteousness" Rom 6:16

 

[dwight92070]

The real clincher here is the fact that the Bible is very clear that we cannot be saved by works, and water baptism is a work, both by the baptizer, and the baptizee, so nobody is saved by performing the work of water baptism.