"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Are you trying to say if you do not audibly confess you are not saved

That is what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul in Rom 10:9-10, yes. Now, I also know that there are the mute in the world whose "mouth" (the instrument through which they speak) is their hands. And I believe that for them God accepts the signs claiming Jesus as their Lord. Does that invalidate the command? No. Because God is perfectly justified if He were to make the mute and condemning them out of hand as He says in Rom 9:19-21.

 

[brightfame52]

Let me ask you an easy question: Does Rom 10:9-10 require an action before a person can receive salvation? This requires only a "yes" or a "no" answer. Which one is it?

Are those actions men do ?

 

[brightfame52]

But not faith, as the bible does not contradict itself

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Is believing something done ?

 

[brightfame52]

A note on Lexicons

A Lexicon cannot tell you what a word means in a given passage. Only context can do that. Lexicons can tell you how a word was used and show a range of meaning. What a word means in a particular passage can only be determined by context.

for example

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In the above passage work is an effort to gain merit based on what you do.

Faith however is not about what you do but what he does and trusting on it.

Is believing something done ? Look at the word for work,ergon:

work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

 

[Doug Brents]

Are those actions men do ?

That is not what I am asking. I am asking what the Scripture says.
Does Rom 10:9-10 require an action before a person can receive salvation? This requires only a "yes" or a "no" answer. Which one is it?

 

[brightfame52]

That is not what I am asking. I am asking what the Scripture says.
Does Rom 10:9-10 require an action before a person can receive salvation? This requires only a "yes" or a "no" answer. Which one is it?

Im saving you and me from going in circles, are those actions, things done by the invidual ?

 

[Doug Brents]

Im saving you and me from going in circles, are those actions, things done by the invidual ?

You read the Word of God and tell me. What does the Scripture say?

 

[brightfame52]

You read the Word of God and tell me. What does the Scripture say?

Yes they are, so theyre works.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes they are, so theyre works.

Ok, that doesn't answer my question though. Does Rom 10:9-10 require an action before a person can receive salvation? Come on now, you can do it. This is not a hard question.

 

[brightfame52]

Ok, that doesn't answer my question though. Does Rom 10:9-10 require an action before a person can receive salvation? Come on now, you can do it. This is not a hard question.

I have told you before friend, Rom 10:9-10 applies to the already saved. Those are actions performed by the saved, believers.

 

[Doug Brents]

I have told you before friend, Rom 10:9-10 applies to the already saved. Those are actions performed by the saved, believers.

Interesting. So you are saying that one is already saved before he does that which leads to salvation? Hmmm. Can you please explain how that is possible?

 

[synergy]

Interesting. So you are saying that one is already saved before he does that which leads to salvation? Hmmm. Can you please explain how that is possible?

Calvinists paint themselves into such a dilemma that they have to acknowledge that they're twice saved in an attempt to make Rom 10:8-17 align with their doctrines.

 

[brightfame52]

Interesting. So you are saying that one is already saved before he does that which leads to salvation? Hmmm. Can you please explain how that is possible?

Yes they were already in a saved state. They were believers, the word of God was engrafted in their heart Rom 10:8

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[synergy]

Yes they were already in a saved state. They were believers, the word of God was engrafted in their heart Rom 10:8

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

How can anything be both near you and in your mouth and heart at the same time? Back to the drawing board for you.

 

[TomL]

Is believing something done ? Look at the word for work,ergon:

work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

Yes it is, but it is not works salvation

Context defines a word not a lexicon and context shows

Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

believing, faith is contrary to works salvation

 

[TomL]

Is believing something done ?

Yes, but scripture defines works salvation

Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and faith is not it

it is an abuse of a lexicon to allow it to tell you how a word must be used in a particular context. Lexicons simply state how a word has been used.

context on the other hand determines meaning


And the above passage is quite clear

 

[TomL]

That is what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul in Rom 10:9-10, yes. Now, I also know that there are the mute in the world whose "mouth" (the instrument through which they speak) is their hands. And I believe that for them God accepts the signs claiming Jesus as their Lord. Does that invalidate the command? No. Because God is perfectly justified if He were to make the mute and condemning them out of hand as He says in Rom 9:19-21.

So what do you do with the verses which do not mention confession of which there are far more than which include confession

Do you just ignore or reject them, forget they exist?

What do you do with passages that mention baptism but not confession

or confession but not baptism

you commit the fallacy of negative inference if you do so

the negative inference fallacy says if a proposition is true, it does not follow that a negative inference from that proposition is also true.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved

He who believes and confesses

Cannot falsify he who believes will be saved without falsifying many biblical texts

 

[brightfame52]

How can anything be both near you and in your mouth and heart at the same time? Back to the drawing board for you.

The preaching of the Gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes it is, but it is not works salvation

Context defines a word not a lexicon and context shows

Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

believing, faith is contrary to works salvation

If you condition salvation on your act of faith, or believing, its a works based salvation, apostacy

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, but scripture defines works salvation

Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and faith is not it

it is an abuse of a lexicon to allow it to tell you how a word must be used in a particular context. Lexicons simply state how a word has been used.

context on the other hand determines meaning


And the above passage is quite clear

If you condition your salvation on something you did, its works salvation.