"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug!
May God keep blessing you and your family in 2026

Do you believe that sacrifices pacified God’s anger?
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

Animal sacrifices cannot not alter God’s mercy or justice. They were a symbol, a ritual that helped people in cultures that already practiced animal sacrifices. They did it to pacify the anger of their gods. Hebrews were part of such cultures.
God has never needed blood to forgive sins, or to “get calm”, and King David knew it well.

“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

So, we are talking here about symbols and rituals, Doug.
Baptism is also a symbol, a ritual. It does not matter if it is mentioned in the Old Testament or New Testament or Quran or any sacred text. A symbol is a symbol. A ritual is a ritual. It is a resource, an aid for our memory and emotions, but has no intrinsic power to perform any spiritual change.

My poor (deleted personal comment) friend, the sacrifices of the Law of Moses were a poor, weak shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, God desires mercy more than sacrifice, but the sacrifice is still necessary. As Heb 9:22 says, there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. But the blood of sheep and bulls is not sufficient to remove sins, only the blood of Jesus will do it. And baptism is not just a symbol; it is the point in time established by God that He removes the stain of our sins and makes us pure, holy, and righteous (Eph 5:26-27).

People die in their sins when they do not repent. Not when they have intellectual errors.

People die in their sins when they repent and surrender in baptism. As I have said before, if you walk into the mud and turn around out of the mud (repent), you are still dirty and covered in mud. You must wash the mud off in order to be clean, and just turning around does not wash the mud off. But the mud of sin cannot be washed off by normal washing; it requires the blood of Jesus to remove the stain of sin. And the blood of Jesus is received in baptism (1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Doug Brents]

It is not.
Primitive thinking envisioned material mechanisms to ensure the favor or grace of their gods.
That’s why, for the Samaritan woman, it was so important to know WHERE to worship… whether in Mount Gerizim as her ancestors or on Jerusalem’s Temple. Worshiping in the WRONG location could mean that God would not accept prayers or deliver forgiveness.
But Jesus said that was not meant to be considered important.
The Father looks a kind of worshippers who worship Him in spirit, in sincerity.

Certainly God looks for sincere worshipers, and that is why He demands faith (the active response to His Gospel) before He pours out His blessing of salvation. Just a thought is not faith. Just lip-service is not faith. Faith requires obedient action.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Certainly God looks for sincere worshipers, and that is why He demands faith (the active response to His Gospel) before He pours out His blessing of salvation. Just a thought is not faith. Just lip-service is not faith. Faith requires obedient action.

Yes, absolutely. And that’s why the Samaritan woman as many others, worried about where exactly to worship God… in mount A or in mount B. Since faith entails obedience, it was of utmost importance to obey God in regard to the place of worship.
Jesus, however, showed that such obedience (obedience to a specific ritual) was not the obedience God was primarily interested on.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My poor (deleted personal comment) friend, the sacrifices of the Law of Moses were a poor, weak shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, God desires mercy more than sacrifice, but the sacrifice is still necessary. As Heb 9:22 says, there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. But the blood of sheep and bulls is not sufficient to remove sins, only the blood of Jesus will do it. And baptism is not just a symbol; it is the point in time established by God that He removes the stain of our sins and makes us pure, holy, and righteous (Eph 5:26-27).

People die in their sins when they repent and surrender in baptism. As I have said before, if you walk into the mud and turn around out of the mud (repent), you are still dirty and covered in mud. You must wash the mud off in order to be clean, and just turning around does not wash the mud off. But the mud of sin cannot be washed off by normal washing; it requires the blood of Jesus to remove the stain of sin. And the blood of Jesus is received in baptism (1 Pet 3:21).

Please notice that you are talking in a symbolic manner. You say that the blood of Jesus is received in baptism. That is obviously symbolic language…and by the way, it is not the symbol used by Peter in 1 Pet 3:21, which is The resurrection.
We could say that in baptism the believers are resurrected with Christ to a new life. That would be a proper way to put it…although still figurative, as God transforms the life of the believer over time.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My poor (deleted personal comment) friend, the sacrifices of the Law of Moses were a poor, weak shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, God desires mercy more than sacrifice, but the sacrifice is still necessary.

King David did not think that way.
The longest and more explicit passage about forgiveness, Psalm 51, makes forgiveness rely exclusively on God’s mercy and NOT in any bloody sacrifice… neither present nor future…neither animal nor messianic.

Blood shedding has NEVER been a condition for God’s mercy. Not in the days of Moses, not in the days of Jesus, not now, not tomorrow. That’s why any Jew living in your neighborhood, just as any Jew living in Egypt or Rome y the time of Jesus, is not / was not concerned about killing a lamb to get God forgiveness when they had committed adultery.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, absolutely. And that’s why the Samaritan woman as many others, worried about where exactly to worship God… in mount A or in mount B. Since faith entails obedience, it was of utmost importance to obey God in regard to the place of worship.
Jesus, however, showed that such obedience (obedience to a specific ritual) was not the obedience God was primarily interested on.

Before Jesus, the worshiping of God on this mountain vs that mountain was very important. Remember the man who was struck dead because he touched the Ark? Just because they were moving the Ark improperly, God struck him dead, even though he was trying to keep the Ark from falling. So too, it is important today to worship God in the proper way (spirit and truth).

Please notice that you are talking in a symbolic manner. You say that the blood of Jesus is received in baptism. That is obviously symbolic language…and by the way, it is not the symbol used by Peter in 1 Pet 3:21, which is The resurrection.
We could say that in baptism the believers are resurrected with Christ to a new life. That would be a proper way to put it…although still figurative, as God transforms the life of the believer over time.

Certainly it is symbolic. But as you noted, a person is resurrected with Christ IN BAPTISM (not before or outside of). Rom 6 and Col 2 make it very clear that it is during baptism that we are united with the blood of Jesus (which washes us clean), and through His blood we are resurrected by the Holy Spirit.

By the way, the death and resurrection of Jesus are a unit. Without His death He could not have been resurrected. It is His blood which washes us clean (1 John 1:7). His resurrection proves that He was the Messiah (1 Cor 15:14).

King David did not think that way.
The longest and more explicit passage about forgiveness, Psalm 51, makes forgiveness rely exclusively on God’s mercy and NOT in any bloody sacrifice… neither present nor future…neither animal nor messianic.

That is completely wrong. God is just, and He cannot violate His character, so He cannot just ignore sin. There MUST be a punishment for sin (because the cost of sin is death (Rom 6:23)), and that punishment must be paid in full. Jesus took that punishment for all those who trust in Him, and in exchange gave us His righteousness. Without His sacrifice there would be no possibility of forgiveness at all.

Blood shedding has NEVER been a condition for God’s mercy. Not in the days of Moses, not in the days of Jesus, not now, not tomorrow. That’s why any Jew living in your neighborhood, just as any Jew living in Egypt or Rome y the time of Jesus, is not / was not concerned about killing a lamb to get God forgiveness when they had committed adultery.

Pancho, I know you don't believe the Bible so I don't expect you to know what it says or how to apply what it says. So I am not surprised that you would say something so totally wrong. As I said in post #3501, Heb 9:22 says clearly that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.

 

[brightfame52]

Works Salvation in the guise of Grace:

One man has written, “…the only way to be saved by grace is by putting your trust in what Jesus did on the cross”. Another has said, “The truth is that you simply turn to the Lord by faith to be forgiven of your sins, and you are saved immediately, completely and eternally”. This is considered standard ‘Christian’ teaching today, however, if we look closely at what exactly is being taught we see the religion of works as its foundation. These teachings are nothing but wolves in sheep’s clothing. Note the fact that both gentlemen are saying that the only way for free grace to save you IS BY YOU DOING SOMETHING FIRST! The first man has concocted a miserable hybrid of grace and works by saying the only way to be saved by grace is by you putting your trust in what Jesus did. This would be like God saying, ‘I will save you without you doing anything, as long as you do something first.’ Or, ‘I will undeservedly save you after you do something first that will deserve My saving you undeservedly’!! How can a man be undeservedly saved after he has done something! How can one be saved via unmerited favour by doing something? How can you attach any condition to salvation, which involves you doing something, so that you can be saved by nothing you have done! To be saved is God making you alive so that you will believe in salvation by grace alone. The only way to be saved by grace is by God making you alive according to His will and purpose. Believing the Gospel of salvation by Sovereign grace does not save anyone, but is the clear sign that a person has been saved by grace alone. Salvation by grace through works is as insane a concept as saying ‘I received this for free after doing that’. This is not salvation by grace, for as we have seen throughout this book, the Scriptures make a distinct and perfectly clear sound when they state no one can come to Jesus by any will of their own. Grace is what draws a man to Jesus, it is by the will of God that a man comes to Jesus, so to be saved by grace is God giving a person the gift of faith to believe solely in grace alone. If salvation is by grace alone, then how is it that a man must begin the process by doing something Christ Himself said could not be done. https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-34

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

King David did not think that way.
The longest and more explicit passage about forgiveness, Psalm 51, makes forgiveness rely exclusively on God’s mercy and NOT in any bloody sacrifice… neither present nor future…neither animal nor messianic.

Blood shedding has NEVER been a condition for God’s mercy. Not in the days of Moses, not in the days of Jesus, not now, not tomorrow. That’s why any Jew living in your neighborhood, just as any Jew living in Egypt or Rome y the time of Jesus, is not / was not concerned about killing a lamb to get God forgiveness when they had committed adultery.

and without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins .

 

[TomL]

and without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins .

Yes

Hebrews 9:22 (NASB 95) — 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


This statement from Hebrews 9:22 establishes that forgiveness requires the shedding of blood—a principle rooted in Old Testament sacrificial practice. In Leviticus, God explains that life resides in blood and has appointed it for making atonement on the altar (Lev 17:11), establishing blood as the mechanism through which sin is addressed.

The New Testament applies this principle to Christ’s death. At the Last Supper, Jesus identified His blood as belonging to a covenant “poured out for many for forgiveness of sins” (Matt 26:28)—directly echoing the Hebrews passage. Rather than entering the holy place through animal sacrifice, Christ entered through His own blood once for all, obtaining eternal redemption, and His blood cleanses consciences from dead works far more effectively than the blood of goats and bulls (Heb 9:12–14).

Multiple passages emphasize the comprehensive scope of Christ’s sacrifice. Redemption and forgiveness of sins occur through His blood according to the riches of His grace (Eph 1:7), while the blood of Jesus cleanses believers from all sin (1 John 1:7). Through the single offering of Christ’s body, believers are sanctified once for all and perfected for all time (Heb 10:10–14)—a permanence that contrasts sharply with the repetitive nature of the old system.

Remission means “to send away from,” where God removes a person’s sins including their guilt and penalties, and this remission requires the shedding of blood, which implies the death of the sacrificial substitute1. The principle announces that whatever God might grant without blood shedding would fall short of true remission—it would not be remission at all by its very nature2.

1. 1
   Robert Gromacki, Stand Bold in Grace: An Exposition of Hebrews, The Gromacki Expository Series (The Woodlands, TX: Kress Christian Publications, 2002), 156.
2. 2
   Hugh Martin, The Atonement: In Its Relations to the Covenant, the Priesthood, the Intercession of Our Lord (Edinburgh: James Gemmell, 1882), 174–175.

 

[brightfame52]

Works salvation is very subtle, its clothed in sheep's clothing, but its wolf, it goes like:

‘God saves you by grace, BUT…’ This is the very essence of works religion, which says: ‘God will save you by what you do not deserve after you have done something to deserve it!’ It is perfect irony. Religion says God cannot freely save you by grace, before you have made payment! It is saying God cannot save you until after you have put your trust in Him, or until AFTER YOU HAVE TURNED TO HIM! Salvation does not come after you…but BECAUSE of HIM! THAT is GRACE! GRACE COMES BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING—GRACE COMES WITHOUT YOU DOING ANYTHING! GRACE IS GIVEN BECAUSE YOU CAN DO NOTHING! https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-34

See putting your trust in Jesus is something done by you !

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Yes

Hebrews 9:22 (NASB 95) — 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


This statement from Hebrews 9:22 establishes that forgiveness requires the shedding of blood—a principle rooted in Old Testament sacrificial practice. In Leviticus, God explains that life resides in blood and has appointed it for making atonement on the altar (Lev 17:11), establishing blood as the mechanism through which sin is addressed.

The New Testament applies this principle to Christ’s death. At the Last Supper, Jesus identified His blood as belonging to a covenant “poured out for many for forgiveness of sins” (Matt 26:28)—directly echoing the Hebrews passage. Rather than entering the holy place through animal sacrifice, Christ entered through His own blood once for all, obtaining eternal redemption, and His blood cleanses consciences from dead works far more effectively than the blood of goats and bulls (Heb 9:12–14).

Multiple passages emphasize the comprehensive scope of Christ’s sacrifice. Redemption and forgiveness of sins occur through His blood according to the riches of His grace (Eph 1:7), while the blood of Jesus cleanses believers from all sin (1 John 1:7). Through the single offering of Christ’s body, believers are sanctified once for all and perfected for all time (Heb 10:10–14)—a permanence that contrasts sharply with the repetitive nature of the old system.

Remission means “to send away from,” where God removes a person’s sins including their guilt and penalties, and this remission requires the shedding of blood, which implies the death of the sacrificial substitute1. The principle announces that whatever God might grant without blood shedding would fall short of true remission—it would not be remission at all by its very nature2.

1. 1
   Robert Gromacki, Stand Bold in Grace: An Exposition of Hebrews, The Gromacki Expository Series (The Woodlands, TX: Kress Christian Publications, 2002), 156.
2. 2
   Hugh Martin, The Atonement: In Its Relations to the Covenant, the Priesthood, the Intercession of Our Lord (Edinburgh: James Gemmell, 1882), 174–175.

Yes indeed , JESUS is our hope and our salvation .
BELIEVE .
For the just shall walk BY FAITH . Dire necessary we beleive GOD and had we Beleived GOD
we had BELEIVED the very testimony HE gave of the Son .
In fact , as john well writes , He who BELEIVES NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the SON
is calling GOD a liar . A liar . Those are not the shoes any wants to be in
On the DAY of the LORD . SO always let us embrace the Love of GOD
and never sip from the cup of a harlots love .

 

[Red Baker]

@Pancho Frijoles

Blood shedding has NEVER been a condition for God’s mercy.

Did Jesus Christ died for our sins? Yes, or no? If yes, then shedding of blood is a synonym for death, which Christ suffered for God's elect. There is no mercy for us without Christ paying our sin debt which was death!

 

[brightfame52]

@Pancho Frijoles

Did Jesus Christ died for our sins? Yes, or no? If yes, then shedding of blood is a synonym for death, which Christ suffered for God's elect. There is no mercy for us without Christ paying our sin debt which was death!

Yes He shows Mercy on the Elect on a Just Ground, that Just ground Isa 53:5-6;10-11

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all[His Seed].

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

From genesis to revelation there has indeed been emphasized a single and consistent plan of redemption .
GOD was gonna be the ONE to SAVE MAN . and without the shedding of BLOOD is NO REMISSION of sins .
Its just for a time it was the blood of an imals , UNTIL the PROMISED ONE would come
whose sacrfice would be THE SACRFICE of a far better SACRIFICE than of any blood of any animal .
And it was not just the blood of a man who gave up his life . OH NO
JESUS was not just man at all . HE had only come IN THE FORM OF MAN
but was BEFORE man was and was b efore ANYTHING created was . In fact
IT IS BY HIM GOD CREATED ALL THAT WAS AND ALL THAT IS .
HE IS THE WORD OF GOD
and the word was G OD . that aint just the blood of a good man shed on that cross
For man cannot save , BUT GOD CAN . AND GOD DID .
and its about HIGH time we preach JESUS AGAIN to all that has breath . with a dire and ab solute reminder
of the dire and absolute necessity to BELIEVE ON HIM or prepare to perish .
FOR IF ONE DENYS GOD , ITS LIGHTS out on judgment day
AND IF ONE DENIES JESUS , boy oh boy , THEY DO DENY GOD . and that too is a fact .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Who f irst clothed the naked man and woman with the skins of animals .
Thus already blood is seen for remission .
Some time later cain and abel would b ring an offering
cains was of the fruit of the ground
Ab els was a b lood offering of his flock .
WHO was accepted ,
WHO was rejected .
And even b efore the law we see abraham sacrificing .
And for a time the law came upon the peoples b y MOSES
and again we see the shedding of b lood for remission .
But all that was but for a time
TILL THE TRUE ONE WOULD COME
and OFFER UP the same sacrifce for b lood for the remission of sins
OH BUT A FAR BETTER SACRIFICE as HE OFFERED UP HIS OWN LIFE , HIS OWN BLOOD
And i highly suggest to all that we dont sip of a harlots cup of l ove
WHICH has TROD the dire necessity for to have to BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST under foot
as it has kissed korans and budda s tatues
and made the bold claim of anti christ
that all religoins serve the same GOD and that our GOD is no better than theirs .
MAKING VOID the very gospel of JESUS CHRIST . ONLY ANTI CHRIST WOULD DO THAT .
ONLY satan would do that . but he will surely make it seem as though it is love as he makes
the path VERY BROAD INDEED .

 

[Soyeong]

Works salvation is very subtle, its clothed in sheep's clothing, but its wolf, it goes like:



See putting your trust in Jesus is something done by you !

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so there is a direct connection between our salvation and being doers of the Law of God and the key is to correctly understand what that connection is and is not. Obeying the Law of God has absolutely nothing to do with deserving salvation or with making a payment for it, so that is not what the connection it, but if you reject works salvation and label everything as works salvation that speaks about what that connection is, the you are refusing to understand what that connection is. We can't trust in Jesus instead of obediently trusting in what he taught.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so there is a direct connection between our salvation and being doers of the Law of God

Everyone Christ lived and died for are by imputation doers of the Law of God, He did it for them as their legal representative.

 

[Soyeong]

The Law of God was never given as a way of becoming righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, but rather it was given to describe the life of someone who is righteous as it describes the life of Christ, so it is what we get to become a doer of by being imputed with the gift of the righteousness of God.

In Titus 2:14, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of God in order to earn our salvation as the rest, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. If Jesus were to obey the Law of God for us as our legal representative instead of graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them, then he would have removed the content of our gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that. Our salvation involves us actually being made to experience being like Christ, not about just being counted as being like him.

 

[Doug Brents]

Everyone Christ lived and died for are by imputation doers of the Law of God,

This statement has been disproved through Scripture (1 John 2:2).

 

[brightfame52]

This statement has been disproved through Scripture (1 John 2:2).

No it hasnt