"Works Salvation"

[FreeInChrist]

I am sure you have heard the story of the tightrope walker pushing the wheelbarrow across the Grand Canyon, but if not I will retell it briefly:

The crowd watched as the skilled tightrope walker pushed a wheelbarrow across the Grand Canyon repeatedly. After several trips back and forth, the tightrope walker asked the crowd if they thought he could safely push the wheelbarrow across with one of them in it. The crowd cheered an affirmative. The tightrope walker addressed one man who was cheering loudly and said, "Sir, do you think I could safely carry you across in this wheelbarrow?”
“Yes, of course,” the man replied.
“Then get in,” said the tightrope walker.
Getting into the wheelbarrow is faith. Standing firm on solid ground, even though you "believe" that the tightrope walker "could" push you across safely, is lack of faith. But the tightrope walker won't put you in the wheelbarrow; he will only push you across in the wheelbarrow if you have first gotten into the wheelbarrow on your own.

Now, here's the situation. The tightrope walker is Jesus. The crowd is humanity and they are all standing on one side of the Canyon, which represents this world. The other side of the Canyon is Paradise, salvation, and eternity with God. There is no way for a human to cross the Canyon; the only way to Paradise is to be taken across by Jesus. But as with the tightrope walker, Jesus won't put you into the wheelbarrow; you must get into it yourself.

Amen, amen

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

I am sure you have heard the story of the tightrope walker pushing the wheelbarrow across the Grand Canyon, but if not I will retell it briefly:

The crowd watched as the skilled tightrope walker pushed a wheelbarrow across the Grand Canyon repeatedly. After several trips back and forth, the tightrope walker asked the crowd if they thought he could safely push the wheelbarrow across with one of them in it. The crowd cheered an affirmative. The tightrope walker addressed one man who was cheering loudly and said, "Sir, do you think I could safely carry you across in this wheelbarrow?”
“Yes, of course,” the man replied.
“Then get in,” said the tightrope walker.
Getting into the wheelbarrow is faith. Standing firm on solid ground, even though you "believe" that the tightrope walker "could" push you across safely, is lack of faith. But the tightrope walker won't put you in the wheelbarrow; he will only push you across in the wheelbarrow if you have first gotten into the wheelbarrow on your own.

Now, here's the situation. The tightrope walker is Jesus. The crowd is humanity and they are all standing on one side of the Canyon, which represents this world. The other side of the Canyon is Paradise, salvation, and eternity with God. There is no way for a human to cross the Canyon; the only way to Paradise is to be taken across by Jesus. But as with the tightrope walker, Jesus won't put you into the wheelbarrow; you must get into it yourself.

And yet the great and mighty tightrope walker
has sent laborers into the world
but many have rejected the message of the Tight rope walker
in favor of a well favored harlot who preached ecumenical interfaith .
AS if that message of hers is in any way LOVE or of GOD .
It has left destitute the false religoins by lying to them and saying we all serve the same
God differently and worse it is quickly silencing the TRUE and ONLY WAY to be saved
by preaching a false love . That whore and her anti christ message will sa ve none .
SO here is the message of TRUTH .
SALVATION is found only IN CHRIST JESUS . TO be saved YE MUST Believe ON HIM
Believing from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead
confessing him by mouth . ALL who reject HIS message will surely and sorely be damned .
OFFER UP CHRIST JESUS , for there is no other name whereby one can be saved .
And nev er offer up a jesus that accepts ANY sin , UNBELIEF .
Pretty simple . But false love produces only false hope and that hope WONT SAVE . T HERE are no
broad paths TO GOD . narrow is the way And JESUS IS THE WAY .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Amen, amen

The message of calvinisim is but a message that contains a b lend of truth and of e r ror .
BUT HERE is the message of GOD ALL MIGHTY
and let WHO SO EVER WILL COME . its an open invitation given unto the world .
The answer is , RUN TO JESUS and never look back .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Amen, amen

There is only ONE THING NECESSARY for to attain Eternal life and for to do the works of GOD .
HIS NAME BE JESUS THE CHRIST and ITS DIRE NECESSARY to have beleived ON HIM to be saved .
There is no man , woman , or child born of woman
There is none that is created
THAT cAN save him or herself . WITH MAN it is impossible
But NOT WITH GOD .
AND here is HOW GOD chose to save.
By the preaching of the gopsel to save ALL who DO BELEIVE . The message of YE MUST BELEIvE ON HIM
to be sav ed , MUST BE PUT AT THE FOREFRONT OF ALL that we do and say .
For a well favored wool covered harlot has come to preach a lie so well cloaked in what she calleth love
that has mesmerized even a lot within christendom To preach IT , rather than THE DIRE NEED
to repent and beleive ON JESUS . and her lie , well no lie can save . ONLY TRUTH .
I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE and no man cometh to the FATHER but by ME .
THEMS HIS WORDS . And HE cannot lie . WE have GOT to preach JESUS
not this other god and what it t ries to produce as love and even d oes so using JESUS name .
GOSPEL TIME my friend . GOSPEL TIME .

 

[FreeInChrist]

And yet the great and mighty tightrope walker
has sent laborers into the world
but many have rejected the message of the Tight rope walker
in favor of a well favored harlot who preached ecumenical interfaith .
AS if that message of hers is in any way LOVE or of GOD .
It has left destitute the false religoins by lying to them and saying we all serve the same
God differently and worse it is quickly silencing the TRUE and ONLY WAY to be saved
by preaching a false love . That whore and her anti christ message will sa ve none .
SO here is the message of TRUTH .
SALVATION is found only IN CHRIST JESUS . TO be saved YE MUST Believe ON HIM
Believing from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead
confessing him by mouth . ALL who reject HIS message will surely and sorely be damned .
OFFER UP CHRIST JESUS , for there is no other name whereby one can be saved .
And nev er offer up a jesus that accepts ANY sin , UNBELIEF .
Pretty simple . But false love produces only false hope and that hope WONT SAVE . T HERE are no
broad paths TO GOD . narrow is the way And JESUS IS THE WAY .

True story.

I assume you all have heard of Chrislam? Chrislam is considered an ecumenical interfaith movement that seeks to merge elements of Christianity and Islam, promoting shared beliefs and practices between the two religions.

It , at one time, was greatly promoted within the USA by Pastor Rick Warren. And he is directly responsible for getting Robert Sculler supporting and involved in it. Crystal Cathedral fame.

Well, it seems that the more involved Schuller got the more his church was suffering... and the result???? Crystal Cathedral
filled for bankruptcy...... in 2010.

Warren did try to distance himself from his beliefs but those of us following the stories know the facts.

Even Jack Van Impe....June 20, 2011

Jack Van Impe, a popular End Times broadcaster, has ended his decades-long run on Trinity Broadcasting Network after a dispute over naming ministers that he accuses of mixing Christian and Muslim beliefs.

Earlier this month, Van Impe named California megachurch founders Rick Warren and Robert H. Schuller as proponents of “Chrislam,” which he defined as “a uniting of Christianity with Islam.” TBN pulled the episode before a repeat broadcast could air.

So it seems that Schuller had a financial take down with his involvement with Warren... I guess God was not too happy.

 

[Doug Brents]

And yet the great and mighty tightrope walker
has sent laborers into the world
but many have rejected the message of the Tight rope walker
in favor of a well favored harlot who preached ecumenical interfaith .
AS if that message of hers is in any way LOVE or of GOD .
It has left destitute the false religoins by lying to them and saying we all serve the same
God differently and worse it is quickly silencing the TRUE and ONLY WAY to be saved
by preaching a false love . That whore and her anti christ message will sa ve none .
SO here is the message of TRUTH .
SALVATION is found only IN CHRIST JESUS . TO be saved YE MUST Believe ON HIM
Believing from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead
confessing him by mouth . ALL who reject HIS message will surely and sorely be damned .
OFFER UP CHRIST JESUS , for there is no other name whereby one can be saved .
And nev er offer up a jesus that accepts ANY sin , UNBELIEF .
Pretty simple . But false love produces only false hope and that hope WONT SAVE . T HERE are no
broad paths TO GOD . narrow is the way And JESUS IS THE WAY .

I agree that there are many who bastardize the TRUTH. And their false "gospel" cannot and will not save. But you leave out actions necessary for salvation from your comment above as well.

Belief (head knowledge) does not place on in the wheelbarrow.
Confessing Him by mouth does not place one in the wheelbarrow.
It is in baptism that we enter the wheelbarrow. And in baptism we are moved by Jesus (the tightrope walker) from one side the Canyon to the other, from death to life.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

True story.

I assume you all have heard of Chrislam? Chrislam is considered an ecumenical interfaith movement that seeks to merge elements of Christianity and Islam, promoting shared beliefs and practices between the two religions.

It , at one time, was greatly promoted within the USA by Pastor Rick Warren. And he is directly responsible for getting Robert Sculler supporting and involved in it. Crystal Cathedral fame.

Well, it seems that the more involved Schuller got the more his church was suffering... and the result???? Crystal Cathedral
filled for bankruptcy...... in 2010.

Warren did try to distance himself from his beliefs but those of us following the stories know the facts.

Even Jack Van Impe....June 20, 2011

Jack Van Impe, a popular End Times broadcaster, has ended his decades-long run on Trinity Broadcasting Network after a dispute over naming ministers that he accuses of mixing Christian and Muslim beliefs.

Earlier this month, Van Impe named California megachurch founders Rick Warren and Robert H. Schuller as proponents of “Chrislam,” which he defined as “a uniting of Christianity with Islam.” TBN pulled the episode before a repeat broadcast could air.

So it seems that Schuller had a financial take down with his involvement with Warren... I guess God was not too happy.

What many may not be aware of
is that many leaders were already well infected with a universal lie
SO is it any wonder the fell VICTIM to what some call chrislam .
Many would shudder if only , IF ONLY they knew that which has been and is and is of anti christ
has long been at work .
Ecumencism destroyed . now if that stings even you abit , or perhaps you feel compelled
to warn me to judge not , JUST KNOW
GOD HAD LONG SAID before you or me were born
before even paul was born , or pe ter had been born
BE YE NOT UNEQUALL Y YOKED , they had KNOWN not to merge with anything or anyone
whether the person even cliams to know GOD and CHRIST , yet twists HIS WORDS .
THEY HAD KNOWN the very simple and child like truth
that even once one of the worst of men , who be no be tter than any , but was simply saved and changed
by the grace of GOD has known for years .
YOU DO NOT GATHER WITH and try and get along and have company with
ANY who preaches and teaches contrary TO A BOOK I KNOW IS and was INSPIRED BY GOD .
THE BIBLE . billy graham was taken down by doing so . OH NOT the bible
BUT BEING unequally yoked . THE MAN FELL , as did even SOLOMON himself
WHO was given GREAT WISDOM , when solomon too did the one t hing
HE too ought never had done . WHEN GOD SAYS SOMET HING , DONT DO IT .
THAT IS WHY MAN FALLS . I aint t he monster
I am not the hater
And while i was once one of the worst
AND GOOD took mercy upon me and drew me to CHRIST , who changed me ,
I WARN FOR ONL Y ONE REASON . and it DARN SURE aint cause i hate man or GOD .
ITS cause i know , THE VERY WORDS OF GOD work to the good of the hearer and the doer
BUT NOT TO THE REJECTOR OR TWISTER of such words .
BIBLE TIME . I dont care if folks call me a pharisee , a legalists
a hater , an anti christ , a devil , a judger
I care not what man says about me .
I care not if i be found acceptable to man .
BY grace I already know ITS not man i stand before n or will stand before on the great day
the last day , ITS GOD who has given ALL JUDGEMENT unto the SON
and ITS BY H IS WORDS we will be judged . AND HIS WORDS do not contradict the WORDS o GOD .
OH my , HE IS THE WORD OF GOD ALL MIGHTY .
GET THIS PEOPLE OUT of these lovey do , unity do , ecumenical h ouses of satan and his whore .
DO it now . NO MORE with the judge not correct not cards .
TIME for the true men to stand and do all to contend for the true faith .
TIME for those who have the real LOVE OF GOD planted on their hearts BY THE ONE AND ONLY
HOLY SPIRIT , b y which the true lambs were sealed , AFTER , ONLY AFTER BELEIVING ON THE REAL JESUS .
TO MAKE OUR FINAL STAND NOW . FOR these who do have the TRUE AGAPE LOvE OF GOD
planted on their hearts , WOULD HAVE LOVED GOD CHRIST ABOVE ALL
THEN loved their neighbor as their own selves . AND SEEING GOD DESIRES the death of none
but rather their repentan ce
THESE PREACH ONLY JESUS . cause ONLY JESUS saves . false hopes and wordly love saves none .
I seen the errors in rick warren and scores of others
AT even the beginning of my walk . YET NOT I , but it was THE TRUE GRACE OF GOD
that had kept me safe , made me aware
and , OH YES , AND had put me into ONL Y ONE B OOK for to learn . TH AT BOOK bE THE BIBLE .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

I agree that there are many who bastardize the TRUTH. And their false "gospel" cannot and will not save. But you leave out actions necessary for salvation from your comment above as well.

Belief (head knowledge) does not place on in the wheelbarrow.
Confessing Him by mouth does not place one in the wheelbarrow.
It is in baptism that we enter the wheelbarrow. And in baptism we are moved by Jesus (the tightrope walker) from one side the Canyon to the other, from death to life.

you assume and assumed i leave those out .
And i do understand for i did not make that clear .
But had you known me , over all these years , YOU had well known i have always made that clear .
Many follow another jesus
and that there jesus of theirs has come to be a serv ant of their sin .
THAT AINT JESUS friend .
And while i also know that IF the apostels do it we do it
i also know this baptism many speak of , THEY KNOW NOHTING of it .
I have seen and seen for a long long time
many sinners go down into the water
whose faith never was IN THE TRUE JESUS
only to come up a wet sinner in need of a towel .
I DO not preach against b eing water baptized
I DO however preach against those who THINK the act saved them
WHEN IN FACT it was not the act of being water baptized that sav es
ITS FAITH IN JESUS that saved .
So you all can do as you must do
BUT i am gonna do as this sheep must do . POINT TO JESUS
and not to two gospels
NOT to the ever changing views of man and of men .
I seen you . Oh yes , oh yes doug , I SEEN you preaching things
that not CHRIST , paul or any other apostel would dared to have ever preached .
SO , MY ADVICE TO YOU . BIBLE TIME friend .

 

[Doug Brents]

you assume and assumed i leave those out .
And i do understand for i did not make that clear .
But had you known me , over all these years , YOU had well known i have always made that clear .
Many follow another jesus
and that there jesus of theirs has come to be a serv ant of their sin .
THAT AINT JESUS friend .
And while i also know that IF the apostels do it we do it
i also know this baptism many speak of , THEY KNOW NOHTING of it .
I have seen and seen for a long long time
many sinners go down into the water
whose faith never was IN THE TRUE JESUS
only to come up a wet sinner in need of a towel .
I DO not preach against b eing water baptized
I DO however preach against those who THINK the act saved them
WHEN IN FACT it was not the act of being water baptized that sav es
ITS FAITH IN JESUS that saved .
So you all can do as you must do
BUT i am gonna do as this sheep must do . POINT TO JESUS
and not to two gospels
NOT to the ever changing views of man and of men .
I seen you . Oh yes , oh yes doug , I SEEN you preaching things
that not CHRIST , paul or any other apostel would dared to have ever preached .
SO , MY ADVICE TO YOU . BIBLE TIME friend .

You are quite correct that there are many who go into the water to be baptized yet arise out of the water a "wet sinner" (as you put it). That is not an indictment on baptism, but of the false doctrines many "churches" have.

As for the idea that water baptism saves, there are two different ways of looking at that. No, the act of being submerged under water and coming back up does not in any way remove, cover, pay for, or in any other way affect sin. On the other hand, God has said in Scripture that there is no forgiveness of sin without being submerged under water and coming back up.
So does baptism save? NO! But is there salvation without baptism? Again, NO!

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

You are quite correct that there are many who go into the water to be baptized yet arise out of the water a "wet sinner" (as you put it). That is not an indictment on baptism, but of the false doctrines many "churches" have.

As for the idea that water baptism saves, there are two different ways of looking at that. No, the act of being submerged under water and coming back up does not in any way remove, cover, pay for, or in any other way affect sin. On the other hand, God has said in Scripture that there is no forgiveness of sin without being submerged under water and coming back up.
So does baptism save? NO! But is there salvation without baptism? Again, NO!

So i guess the thief on the cross was told a lie by JESUS when JESUS said
YE will be with me IN PARADISE .
I do get what you are saying . I do agree that the beleiver SHOULD be water baptized . no arguement from me .
However the theif on the cross would surely recieve salvation in CHRIST JESUS . a fact
that cannot be denied .
LOOK if you want to stress the dire importance to be water baptized , you wont hear me argue that
but lets not say w ithout water there is no salvation .
Lets rather say IF JESUS said to do it , DO IT .

 

[Doug Brents]

So i guess the thief on the cross was told a lie by JESUS when JESUS said
YE will be with me IN PARADISE .

Not at all. The thief was told he would be in paradise with Jesus before Jesus died. Before Jesus died, He could change His will (as in last will and testament) and dispense the inheritance He left for the Church in any way He wanted. But after His death, His will is set and cannot be changed (Heb 9:15-22).

I do get what you are saying . I do agree that the beleiver SHOULD be water baptized . no arguement from me .
However the theif on the cross would surely recieve salvation in CHRIST JESUS . a fact
that cannot be denied .

No dispute over the salvation of the thief. But he was never subject to the New Covenant.

LOOK if you want to stress the dire importance to be water baptized , you wont hear me argue that
but lets not say w ithout water there is no salvation .
Lets rather say IF JESUS said to do it , DO IT .

Jesus said that without both the Spirit and water (John 3:5) we cannot enter the Kingdom of God (be saved). Paul says that it is in baptism that our sin is cut from us (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14), in baptism we are clothed with Christ and adopted into His family (Gal 3:26-27), in baptism we are washed clean and made holy (Eph 5:26-27). And Peter says that it is in baptism that we are saved (1 Pet 3:21). Luke tells us that Ananias told Saul to be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). So yes, I will continue to say that without water there is no salvation.

 

[FreeInChrist]

What many may not be aware of
is that many leaders were already well infected with a universal lie
SO is it any wonder the fell VICTIM to what some call chrislam .
Many would shudder if only , IF ONLY they knew that which has been and is and is of anti christ
has long been at work .
Ecumencism destroyed . now if that stings even you abit , or perhaps you feel compelled
to warn me to judge not , JUST KNOW
GOD HAD LONG SAID before you or me were born
before even paul was born , or pe ter had been born
BE YE NOT UNEQUALL Y YOKED , they had KNOWN not to merge with anything or anyone
whether the person even cliams to know GOD and CHRIST , yet twists HIS WORDS .
THEY HAD KNOWN the very simple and child like truth
that even once one of the worst of men , who be no be tter than any , but was simply saved and changed
by the grace of GOD has known for years .
YOU DO NOT GATHER WITH and try and get along and have company with
ANY who preaches and teaches contrary TO A BOOK I KNOW IS and was INSPIRED BY GOD .
THE BIBLE . billy graham was taken down by doing so . OH NOT the bible
BUT BEING unequally yoked . THE MAN FELL , as did even SOLOMON himself
WHO was given GREAT WISDOM , when solomon too did the one t hing
HE too ought never had done . WHEN GOD SAYS SOMET HING , DONT DO IT .
THAT IS WHY MAN FALLS . I aint t he monster
I am not the hater
And while i was once one of the worst
AND GOOD took mercy upon me and drew me to CHRIST , who changed me ,
I WARN FOR ONL Y ONE REASON . and it DARN SURE aint cause i hate man or GOD .
ITS cause i know , THE VERY WORDS OF GOD work to the good of the hearer and the doer
BUT NOT TO THE REJECTOR OR TWISTER of such words .
BIBLE TIME . I dont care if folks call me a pharisee , a legalists
a hater , an anti christ , a devil , a judger
I care not what man says about me .
I care not if i be found acceptable to man .
BY grace I already know ITS not man i stand before n or will stand before on the great day
the last day , ITS GOD who has given ALL JUDGEMENT unto the SON
and ITS BY H IS WORDS we will be judged . AND HIS WORDS do not contradict the WORDS o GOD .
OH my , HE IS THE WORD OF GOD ALL MIGHTY .
GET THIS PEOPLE OUT of these lovey do , unity do , ecumenical h ouses of satan and his whore .
DO it now . NO MORE with the judge not correct not cards .
TIME for the true men to stand and do all to contend for the true faith .
TIME for those who have the real LOVE OF GOD planted on their hearts BY THE ONE AND ONLY
HOLY SPIRIT , b y which the true lambs were sealed , AFTER , ONLY AFTER BELEIVING ON THE REAL JESUS .
TO MAKE OUR FINAL STAND NOW . FOR these who do have the TRUE AGAPE LOvE OF GOD
planted on their hearts , WOULD HAVE LOVED GOD CHRIST ABOVE ALL
THEN loved their neighbor as their own selves . AND SEEING GOD DESIRES the death of none
but rather their repentan ce
THESE PREACH ONLY JESUS . cause ONLY JESUS saves . false hopes and wordly love saves none .
I seen the errors in rick warren and scores of others
AT even the beginning of my walk . YET NOT I , but it was THE TRUE GRACE OF GOD
that had kept me safe , made me aware
and , OH YES , AND had put me into ONL Y ONE B OOK for to learn . TH AT BOOK bE THE BIBLE .

To the trenches id more important then it ever was.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You are quite correct that there are many who go into the water to be baptized yet arise out of the water a "wet sinner" (as you put it). That is not an indictment on baptism, but of the false doctrines many "churches" have.

As for the idea that water baptism saves, there are two different ways of looking at that. No, the act of being submerged under water and coming back up does not in any way remove, cover, pay for, or in any other way affect sin. On the other hand, God has said in Scripture that there is no forgiveness of sin without being submerged under water and coming back up.
So does baptism save? NO! But is there salvation without baptism? Again, NO!

Not exactly correct.

1. Is water baptism required for salvation?

Short answer: No ~ a person can be saved without ever being water-baptized, but water baptism is the commanded, normal, public profession of that salvation.

Key passages that prove salvation can occur without water baptism:

The thief on the cross Luke 23:39–43 He had faith in Jesus, called Him Lord, and Jesus said, “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” He was never baptized in water, yet he was undeniably saved.

Cornelius and his household (Acts 10:44–48) While Peter was still preaching, the Holy Spirit fell on them, they spoke in tongues and magnified God clear evidence they were already saved/regenerated. Only after that did Peter say, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people…?” They were saved before water baptism; water baptism followed as the proper response.

Acts 15:8–9 (Peter recounting the same event at the Jerusalem Council) “God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us, and He made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.” Heart-cleansing (salvation) happened by faith, evidenced by the Spirit, before water.

Verses used by those who teach baptismal regeneration (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21; John 3:5; Acts 22:16) are all answered in context:

Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Condemnation is tied to unbelief, not lack of baptism.

Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized… for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” ~ The Greek εἰς (“for”) can mean “because of” or “with a view to” (same construction in Matt 12:41 – they repented “εἰς” the preaching of Jonah = because of it). Almost all conservative scholars today say the verse links baptism with public profession, not as the mechanism of forgiveness.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism “now saves you… not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” ~Peter explicitly says it is not the water itself that saves, but the appeal/pledge of faith that baptism represents.

Therefore...
It is the commanded, public, outward sign of the inward reality (Matt 28:19; Acts 8:36–38; Rom 6:3–4), and deliberate lifelong refusal to be baptized is serious evidence of unrepentance. But the New Testament repeatedly shows people forgiven, regenerated, Spirit-indwelt believers before they are immersed in water.

2. Is the baptism of/with the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Short answer: Yes — 100% required. There is no salvation at all without the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Himself said: John 3:5 – “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Almost all evangelical scholars take “water” here as a symbol of cleansing/Spirit-birth [cf. Ezek 36:25–27; Titus 3:5], not physical baptism.)

Paul: Romans 8:9 “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.” 1 Corinthians 12:13 – “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body… and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” This is something that happens to every believer at the moment of faith, not a second experience.

Titus 3:5 – “He saved us… by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”

Every single person who is justified is, at that same instant, baptized/immersed by Christ into the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16). It is not optional, not subsequent, not only for some super-Christians — it is the new-covenant salvation experience itself.

So, in plain understandable terms:

You can go to heaven without ever getting wet.

You cannot go to heaven without the Holy Spirit baptizing you into Christ (which happens the moment you truly believe).

That is the consistent teaching of the whole New Testament.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Not exactly correct.

1. Is water baptism required for salvation?

Short answer: No ~ a person can be saved without ever being water-baptized, but water baptism is the commanded, normal, public profession of that salvation.

Key passages that prove salvation can occur without water baptism:

The thief on the cross Luke 23:39–43 He had faith in Jesus, called Him Lord, and Jesus said, “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” He was never baptized in water, yet he was undeniably saved.

Cornelius and his household (Acts 10:44–48) While Peter was still preaching, the Holy Spirit fell on them, they spoke in tongues and magnified God clear evidence they were already saved/regenerated. Only after that did Peter say, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people…?” They were saved before water baptism; water baptism followed as the proper response.

Acts 15:8–9 (Peter recounting the same event at the Jerusalem Council) “God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us, and He made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.” Heart-cleansing (salvation) happened by faith, evidenced by the Spirit, before water.

Verses used by those who teach baptismal regeneration (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21; John 3:5; Acts 22:16) are all answered in context:

Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Condemnation is tied to unbelief, not lack of baptism.

Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized… for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” ~ The Greek εἰς (“for”) can mean “because of” or “with a view to” (same construction in Matt 12:41 – they repented “εἰς” the preaching of Jonah = because of it). Almost all conservative scholars today say the verse links baptism with public profession, not as the mechanism of forgiveness.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism “now saves you… not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” ~Peter explicitly says it is not the water itself that saves, but the appeal/pledge of faith that baptism represents.

Therefore...
It is the commanded, public, outward sign of the inward reality (Matt 28:19; Acts 8:36–38; Rom 6:3–4), and deliberate lifelong refusal to be baptized is serious evidence of unrepentance. But the New Testament repeatedly shows people forgiven, regenerated, Spirit-indwelt believers before they are immersed in water.

2. Is the baptism of/with the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Short answer: Yes — 100% required. There is no salvation at all without the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Himself said: John 3:5 – “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Almost all evangelical scholars take “water” here as a symbol of cleansing/Spirit-birth [cf. Ezek 36:25–27; Titus 3:5], not physical baptism.)

Paul: Romans 8:9 “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.” 1 Corinthians 12:13 – “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body… and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” This is something that happens to every believer at the moment of faith, not a second experience.

Titus 3:5 – “He saved us… by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”

Every single person who is justified is, at that same instant, baptized/immersed by Christ into the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16). It is not optional, not subsequent, not only for some super-Christians — it is the new-covenant salvation experience itself.

So, in plain understandable terms:

You can go to heaven without ever getting wet.

You cannot go to heaven without the Holy Spirit baptizing you into Christ (which happens the moment you truly believe).

That is the consistent teaching of the whole New Testament.

regulators and contenders of the true faith , all who call upon the NAME of JESUS in Spirit and in truth
TO the trenches one and all . Let none who name the NAME of CHRIST enter into any covenant
with A whore and her harlots love of ecumenical interfaith . For as a snare has it come upon the entire
world and her religoins to merge as one under a lie she claims is OF GOD and of a love covenant
that has DENIED HIS VERY CHRIST . No sheep gonna sit at her table .
WE shall contend for the true faith , till the last and final breath ebbs out our lungs .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

To the trenches id more important then it ever was.

oh YES indeed it surely is .
The enemy knew he could not overcome the great walls
from the outside
SO he sent a trogan horse of peace for to decieve and to destroy from within .
And within that horse is a rainbow coalition of diverse and strange doctrine
by which they call love . And many there be even IN WOOL which have agreed to its terms
and who do its bidding . No sheep shall eat the grass of its inclusive strange field
or sip of its cup of fornication . But we shall be hated of many
and even cast out as haters of what they call god and call love as haters of humanity itself .
Fear not a one of them . THE LORD is with the sheep and shall be with us
no matter how great a tumult they bring against us . He has always been with HIS SHEEP
through all ages . HE will be with us during this last age too . the
hour cometh and now is when it will hit the peak . Fear not man .
The fear of man is a snare to the soul .
THEY through fear and convience shall lead this people to submit as one
under a digital solution and peace solution of anti christ . And they will
beleive it is the WILL of GOD for peace n safety , when e ven the true saints are persecuted .

 

[FreeInChrist]

regulators and contenders of the true faith , all who call upon the NAME of JESUS in Spirit and in truth
TO the trenches one and all . Let none who name the NAME of CHRIST enter into any covenant
with A whore and her harlots love of ecumenical interfaith . For as a snare has it come upon the entire
world and her religoins to merge as one under a lie she claims is OF GOD and of a love covenant
that has DENIED HIS VERY CHRIST . No sheep gonna sit at her table .
WE shall contend for the true faith , till the last and final breath ebbs out our lungs .

Amen, amen

 

[Doug Brents]

Not exactly correct.

1. Is water baptism required for salvation?

Short answer: No ~ a person can be saved without ever being water-baptized, but water baptism is the commanded, normal, public profession of that salvation.

Key passages that prove salvation can occur without water baptism:

The thief on the cross Luke 23:39–43 He had faith in Jesus, called Him Lord, and Jesus said, “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” He was never baptized in water, yet he was undeniably saved.

The thief was promised salvation before Jesus died. Before He died, Jesus could give salvation to anyone He chose for any act of faith He chose to accept. But after He died, His will (last will and testament) was locked and cannot be changed (Heb 9:15-22). The thief was never subject to the New Covenant.

Cornelius and his household (Acts 10:44–48) While Peter was still preaching, the Holy Spirit fell on them, they spoke in tongues and magnified God clear evidence they were already saved/regenerated. Only after that did Peter say, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people…?” They were saved before water baptism; water baptism followed as the proper response.

Acts 15:8–9 (Peter recounting the same event at the Jerusalem Council) “God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us, and He made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.” Heart-cleansing (salvation) happened by faith, evidenced by the Spirit, before water.

There is no evidence that the Spirit falling ON Cornelius and his household equals salvation. The Spirit fell on Cornelius in the same way He fell on the Apostles on Pentecost. And they were already saved, having the indwelling of the Spirit since John 20:22. On Pentecost the Spirit fell ON (not INTO) the 120 people there giving them tongues and praise, and when He fell on Cornelius He gave them tongues and praise (exactly the same in both cases). Further, if they were saved when the Spirit fell on them, then there would have been no need to baptize them in water. The "sign" of their faith would have already been seen by those who were present. But Peter commanded that they be baptized in water so that their sins would be washed away, the same as He told the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:38), and the same that Ananias told Saul in Damascus (Acts 22:16).

Verses used by those who teach baptismal regeneration (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21; John 3:5; Acts 22:16) are all answered in context:

Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Condemnation is tied to unbelief, not lack of baptism.

We are all already condemned because we have sinned. Condemnation is tied to sin, not unbelief. Belief and baptism is the only way out of condemnation.

Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized… for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” ~ The Greek εἰς (“for”) can mean “because of” or “with a view to” (same construction in Matt 12:41 – they repented “εἰς” the preaching of Jonah = because of it). Almost all conservative scholars today say the verse links baptism with public profession, not as the mechanism of forgiveness.

First off, it is necessary to understand that "repent" and "be baptized" are not separated by anything grammatically. They both relate to "for the forgiveness of sin" in the same way.
Second, it is correct that the word "for" can mean "because of", or "in order to".
Now, to understand which meaning of "for" is intended in Acts 2:38, we can look over one chapter to Acts 3:19. Here, repentance is to be done, "so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord". If repentance is to be done "in order to" be saved/forgiven, the "for" in Acts 2:38 must also be understood to mean "in order to". Thus "repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness" is the proper meaning of that verse.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism “now saves you… not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” ~Peter explicitly says it is not the water itself that saves, but the appeal/pledge of faith that baptism represents.

That does not change what he already said. It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins; it is baptism that saves because that is where/when the Holy Spirit adds us to the Church.

2. Is the baptism of/with the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Short answer: Yes — 100% required. There is no salvation at all without the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Himself said: John 3:5 – “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Almost all evangelical scholars take “water” here as a symbol of cleansing/Spirit-birth [cf. Ezek 36:25–27; Titus 3:5], not physical baptism.)

Paul: Romans 8:9 “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.” 1 Corinthians 12:13 – “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body… and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” This is something that happens to every believer at the moment of faith, not a second experience.

Titus 3:5 – “He saved us… by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”

The "washing of regeneration" and the "renewal of the Holy Spirit" are two different things that occur at the same time. The washing of regeneration requires water (John 3:5, Eph 5:26). The renewal of the Holy Spirit occurs while in the water (1 Pet 3:21).

Every single person who is justified is, at that same instant, baptized/immersed by Christ into the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16). It is not optional, not subsequent, not only for some super-Christians — it is the new-covenant salvation experience itself.

So, in plain understandable terms:

You can go to heaven without ever getting wet.

You cannot go to heaven without the Holy Spirit baptizing you into Christ (which happens the moment you truly believe).

That is the consistent teaching of the whole New Testament.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received DURING water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21). The "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is what occurred on Pentecost and at Cornelius' house, and has never happened since; only those two times in all of history. If that is what is required to be saved, then only the 120 in the room on Pentecost and those in Cornelius' house are saved. But there were 5000 people not in the room on Pentecost who did not have the Spirit in tongues of flame fall on them but they were added to the Church that day.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The thief was promised salvation before Jesus died. Before He died, Jesus could give salvation to anyone He chose for any act of faith He chose to accept. But after He died, His will (last will and testament) was locked and cannot be changed (Heb 9:15-22). The thief was never subject to the New Covenant.

There is no evidence that the Spirit falling ON Cornelius and his household equals salvation. The Spirit fell on Cornelius in the same way He fell on the Apostles on Pentecost. And they were already saved, having the indwelling of the Spirit since John 20:22. On Pentecost the Spirit fell ON (not INTO) the 120 people there giving them tongues and praise, and when He fell on Cornelius He gave them tongues and praise (exactly the same in both cases). Further, if they were saved when the Spirit fell on them, then there would have been no need to baptize them in water. The "sign" of their faith would have already been seen by those who were present. But Peter commanded that they be baptized in water so that their sins would be washed away, the same as He told the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:38), and the same that Ananias told Saul in Damascus (Acts 22:16).

We are all already condemned because we have sinned. Condemnation is tied to sin, not unbelief. Belief and baptism is the only way out of condemnation.

First off, it is necessary to understand that "repent" and "be baptized" are not separated by anything grammatically. They both relate to "for the forgiveness of sin" in the same way.
Second, it is correct that the word "for" can mean "because of", or "in order to".
Now, to understand which meaning of "for" is intended in Acts 2:38, we can look over one chapter to Acts 3:19. Here, repentance is to be done, "so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord". If repentance is to be done "in order to" be saved/forgiven, the "for" in Acts 2:38 must also be understood to mean "in order to". Thus "repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness" is the proper meaning of that verse.

That does not change what he already said. It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins; it is baptism that saves because that is where/when the Holy Spirit adds us to the Church.

The "washing of regeneration" and the "renewal of the Holy Spirit" are two different things that occur at the same time. The washing of regeneration requires water (John 3:5, Eph 5:26). The renewal of the Holy Spirit occurs while in the water (1 Pet 3:21).

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received DURING water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21). The "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is what occurred on Pentecost and at Cornelius' house, and has never happened since; only those two times in all of history. If that is what is required to be saved, then only the 120 in the room on Pentecost and those in Cornelius' house are saved. But there were 5000 people not in the room on Pentecost who did not have the Spirit in tongues of flame fall on them but they were added to the Church that day.

agree to disagree... I am solid in my beliefs..

 

[Jim]

The thief was promised salvation before Jesus died. Before He died, Jesus could give salvation to anyone He chose for any act of faith He chose to accept. But after He died, His will (last will and testament) was locked and cannot be changed (Heb 9:15-22). The thief was never subject to the New Covenant.

Agree.

There is no evidence that the Spirit falling ON Cornelius and his household equals salvation. The Spirit fell on Cornelius in the same way He fell on the Apostles on Pentecost. And they were already saved, having the indwelling of the Spirit since John 20:22. On Pentecost the Spirit fell ON (not INTO) the 120 people there giving them tongues and praise, and when He fell on Cornelius He gave them tongues and praise (exactly the same in both cases). Further, if they were saved when the Spirit fell on them, then there would have been no need to baptize them in water. The "sign" of their faith would have already been seen by those who were present. But Peter commanded that they be baptized in water so that their sins would be washed away, the same as He told the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:38), and the same that Ananias told Saul in Damascus (Acts 22:16).

Agree but with some additional comments which will be found below.

We are all already condemned because we have sinned. Condemnation is tied to sin, not unbelief. Belief and baptism is the only way out of condemnation.

Agree. Besides, if one does not believe in God, nothing else matters.

First off, it is necessary to understand that "repent" and "be baptized" are not separated by anything grammatically. They both relate to "for the forgiveness of sin" in the same way.
Second, it is correct that the word "for" can mean "because of", or "in order to".
Now, to understand which meaning of "for" is intended in Acts 2:38, we can look over one chapter to Acts 3:19. Here, repentance is to be done, "so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord". If repentance is to be done "in order to" be saved/forgiven, the "for" in Acts 2:38 must also be understood to mean "in order to". Thus "repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness" is the proper meaning of that verse.

The English word "for" can mean "because of" or "in order to". The Greek word "eis" which occurs there in Acts 2:38 cannot. It always a preposition of direction. It always indicates forward to, toward, unto, into, for the intent of, etc. It never means because of. Therefore, in Acts 2:38 the only true meaning is that Peter said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto [in order to receive] the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

That does not change what he already said. It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins; it is baptism that saves because that is where/when the Holy Spirit adds us to the Church.

Baptism in water in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is the moment in time that God saves the repentant believer.

The "washing of regeneration" and the "renewal of the Holy Spirit" are two different things that occur at the same time. The washing of regeneration requires water (John 3:5, Eph 5:26). The renewal of the Holy Spirit occurs while in the water (1 Pet 3:21).

Agree.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received DURING water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21). The "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is what occurred on Pentecost and at Cornelius' house, and has never happened since; only those two times in all of history. If that is what is required to be saved, then only the 120 in the room on Pentecost and those in Cornelius' house are saved. But there were 5000 people not in the room on Pentecost who did not have the Spirit in tongues of flame fall on them but they were added to the Church that day.

I agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received in water baptism. I believe that is the "baptism with the Holy Spirit"., i.e., baptism with the Holy Spirit is the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit. I do not agree with idea that baptism with the Holy Spirit is associated with the ability to work miracles. I can give you an extensive argument to support that, but just briefly, when in Mark 1 John the Baptist said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit, he was speaking to all those in the country of Judea an all Jerusalem (Mark 1:5) who had come out to him and had been baptized by him in water. He did not limit that to those at Pentecost or at Cornelius' house. That same is said in Luke 3 of all those that came out to him. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is the gift for all who God saves through justification, regeneration and initial sanctification.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was clearly a New Covenant feature. What happened to those at Pentecost and at Cornelius' house when they spoke in tongues and prophesied was but another occurrence of people performing signs, wonders and miracles which was not new but had been witnessed throughout the OT history in a few selected individuals.

@Doug Brents, you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit when you were baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Amen, amen

We are free in Christ Jesus my friend . Forward march .