Doug Brents
Active Member
That is your delusion. Prove it.
"Works Salvation"
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brightfame52
Active Member
I cant, God has to open your eyes to the Truth
Doug Brents
Active Member
Ahh, so you know that what you are teaching is not Truth. Because if it was, you could explain it with Scripture. I have shown you the truth with and in Scripture, but you refuse to see it.
I have the Holy Spirit within me, and He makes connections within Scripture just as Jesus promised the Apostles that He would do for them. If you show me where Scripture demonstrates that "the whole World" is really referring to the Church, then I will be able to understand it.
If there is one key message in the whole of scripture it is obedience. That is clearly the message of the Old Covenant and the Old Testament. God's premier message in the OT was "If .....then". The same is true in the NT also even to the point of stating the consequences of not obeying the gospel.
2Th_1:8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
1Pe_4:17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?
An interesting thing about this is the obvious implication of what are the consequences of obeying the gospel; the gospel that is the power of God UNTO salvation to every one that believes.
There is never a single statement in the whole bible that says that you can be saved without doing anything. It says that you will never do enough to be saved, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't require something as a condition, no matter how ineffectual you think it might be, for Him to save.
brightfame52
Active Member
Sure it is
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
@Jim
There is another plan of salvation, other than what you have come to believe in ~ "the Bible plan", revealed from heaven, which rejects our works as a means of our justification from sin and condemnation.
The Bible plan sees human cooperation and efforts the result of grace, "not" conditions for it, as you and many others preach/teach.
Salvation from sin and condemnation is of the LORD 100% Jim! We do not compromise that glorious declaration in any way at all! As we have pointed out several times over the years, faith is definitely a work ~ a work that God expects and requires (John 6:28,29), but it is not a legal, Jewish work of the Law, when it rests on the gracious and finished gift of God as an evidence that we have been born of God, not of the flesh, nor of the will of another man bringing the gospel to us.
Faith is definitely commandment keeping (1st John 3:23), but it is the acceptable evidence of justification when it is viewed as evidence of those justified by God’s grace in Christ Jesus.
The works Paul condemned are works of the Law whereby man has an active part as conditions for justification from sin and condemnation.
Jim, you do not understand properly what Paul is saying below, if you truly believe what you have written above.
Romans 4:5
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”There is another plan of salvation, other than what you have come to believe in ~ "the Bible plan", revealed from heaven, which rejects our works as a means of our justification from sin and condemnation.
The Bible plan sees human cooperation and efforts the result of grace, "not" conditions for it, as you and many others preach/teach.
Salvation from sin and condemnation is of the LORD 100% Jim! We do not compromise that glorious declaration in any way at all! As we have pointed out several times over the years, faith is definitely a work ~ a work that God expects and requires (John 6:28,29), but it is not a legal, Jewish work of the Law, when it rests on the gracious and finished gift of God as an evidence that we have been born of God, not of the flesh, nor of the will of another man bringing the gospel to us.
Faith is definitely commandment keeping (1st John 3:23), but it is the acceptable evidence of justification when it is viewed as evidence of those justified by God’s grace in Christ Jesus.
The works Paul condemned are works of the Law whereby man has an active part as conditions for justification from sin and condemnation.
That is not talking about salvation of sinners. The ones affected by Jesus' obedience are the same ones affected by Adam's disobedience. The ones that might have been affected by Adam's sin were the whole of humanity at [or before] birth. That is a statement that Christ's obedience negated what might have been original sin.
It is more obvious that you do not know what you are talking about.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Then prove it with Scripture.
@Red Baker
I am afraid that it is you who do not understand what Paul is saying.
First of all, I would hope that you would understand what that verse is saying. It counters your argument that Romans 3:22 speaks of the faith OF Christ and instead speaks of faith IN Christ. Second Romans 3:20 is the first occasion in Romans that Paul addresses the impotence of deeds, works, as a means of salvation. There he clearly identifies what works he is referring to, namely works of the law. Works of the law, is not, as you wish it was, anything that one would do.
In the broadest sense of “something we do,” even faith is a work. But this is not the connotation that applies to the term “works” in Romans 3:20 and the rest of the NT, however, especially in the writings of Paul and James. This is evident from the fact that both of these writers separate faith from the category of works (e.g., Rom 3:28; Eph 2:8-9; Jas 2:18-26). Thus “works” in these other contexts must have a different meaning. I suggest that the key passage that helps us understand this meaning is Rom 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” The latter part of this verse says literally, “apart from works of law.” Here, as in many other places in this context (e.g., 3:19-21a), “law” (nomos) refers to any and all law codes imposed upon mankind as creatures by the sovereign Creator. “Works of law” then refers to any response by the creature to the Creator’s laws. Rom 3:20 uses the same expression in the same sense, literally, “By works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight.”
Is faith different from works in this Pauline sense? Yes indeed. Whereas works are the creature’s response to the Creator’s law, faith is the sinner’s response to the Redeemer’s instructions on how to receive the gift of salvation. That is, faith in Jesus is not something God as Creator requires in the law that applies to mankind simply as creatures; it is not a “work of law.” It is rather our response to God in his role as Redeemer, which is specifically faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 3:25 [NIV]; 10:9); it does not apply to the creature’s generic faith in the existence of the good Creator (Heb 11:6).
There is much more to be said in this context of "not by deeds, works, of law". But that will suffice to show why you are incorrect in your assessment of "works" as anything we do.
I have just shown you why what you are saying there is wrong. One's faith IS NOT A WORK OF LAW!!!
I would add here that the problem is not in the law. For clearly, if one were to keep all God's law perfectly, then he would not have sinned and would not be eternally condemned and needing to be saved. The fundamental problem is, as Paul has said in Romans 3:23 in connection with his discussion on this topic, " ....all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God...."
Red, why do you not read what the verse you posted, Romans 4:5, says? It says. "to him that believes in God, his faith is counted for righteousness". That means he who believes in God has been justified by faith (Rom 3:28; 5:1; Gal 2:16; 2:24). To be justified is to be saved.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Spot on right my friend , POINT to the dire necessity to Believe on Christ JESUS to the last and final breath .
And anytime one asks What must i do to BE SAVED
let us respond identical to what both pual and silas told the jailor who asked such a question .
BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST and ye shall BE SAVED .
For it is the POWER of GOD unto salvation .
Now i want us all to notice what paul wrote to timothy .
That in the latter times .
They would have a form of godliness but DENY the POWER thereof .
THEN TAKE A GOOD long look at ecum ein cal interfiath
It has a form of godliness BUT DENIES and DENIED the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
IT IS this religoin of the last hour and its a false one too . But it grows by day and by hour .
IT is of that which is of anti christ and t hough it cliams this be the way to a ttain PEACE
Beware its peace be of anti christ . Not GOD .
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
actually we DO just that . WE DO BELEIVE this and REMIND all THEY TOO MUST BELEIVE .
you b arking up the wrong tree my friend .
WE actually BELEIVE and thus we REMIND all of the dire necessity TO BELEIVE ON HIM and that HE has done
ALL that is required for our salvation . But not all Beleive and it will be their own destruction .
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
you are correct about that . But how quickly you forget
ITS THE BELIEVER IN JESUS that is made righteous . NOT everyone , JUST THE BELEIVER .
FOR we are made THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD in HIM .
SOme of us really do read our bible and have loved to do so every day for hours
for coming up now on twenty years .
AND believe me i dont say that to boast in who EVER that man i was speaking about was ,
BUT JUST to make a point . and the point is , ITS BibLE TIME .
let all that has breath Get in it and read it AND NOT THROUGH ya denominations lens or etc .
JUST read and enjoy for oneself .
brightfame52
Active Member
Because they were mot of His Sheep that He died for. And in that case, they were appointed to unbelief 1 Pet 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
The word disobedient is apeitheō:
- not to allow one's self to be persuaded
- to refuse or withhold belief
- to refuse belief and obedience
- not to comply with
Its translated unbelief in Rom 11 30
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
This unbelief they were appointed to tithēmi:
τιθέναι τινα εἰς τί, to appoint one to (destine one to be) anything, passive, 1 Peter 2:8
Its a aorist passive indicative, they had been acted upon as a matter of fact.
So whenever one continues in unbelief, its because they had been destined to that.
Its not Gods will for everyone to become a believer, many He is pleased for them to stumble at the word in unbelief.
brightfame52
Active Member
False its the sinner in adam, chosen in Christ that is made righteous, even made a believer.
You sound like you make believing a condition for salvation, if you do, you too promote a works base salvation void of Grace.
No, he is not. It is speaking about the condition of all humanity as they come into this world.
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