"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug!
May God keep blessing you and your family in 2026

Do you believe that sacrifices pacified God’s anger?
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

Animal sacrifices cannot not alter God’s mercy or justice. They were a symbol, a ritual that helped people in cultures that already practiced animal sacrifices. They did it to pacify the anger of their gods. Hebrews were part of such cultures.
God has never needed blood to forgive sins, or to “get calm”, and King David knew it well.

“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

So, we are talking here about symbols and rituals, Doug.
Baptism is also a symbol, a ritual. It does not matter if it is mentioned in the Old Testament or New Testament or Quran or any sacred text. A symbol is a symbol. A ritual is a ritual. It is a resource, an aid for our memory and emotions, but has no intrinsic power to perform any spiritual change.

My poor (deleted personal comment) friend, the sacrifices of the Law of Moses were a poor, weak shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, God desires mercy more than sacrifice, but the sacrifice is still necessary. As Heb 9:22 says, there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. But the blood of sheep and bulls is not sufficient to remove sins, only the blood of Jesus will do it. And baptism is not just a symbol; it is the point in time established by God that He removes the stain of our sins and makes us pure, holy, and righteous (Eph 5:26-27).

People die in their sins when they do not repent. Not when they have intellectual errors.

People die in their sins when they repent and surrender in baptism. As I have said before, if you walk into the mud and turn around out of the mud (repent), you are still dirty and covered in mud. You must wash the mud off in order to be clean, and just turning around does not wash the mud off. But the mud of sin cannot be washed off by normal washing; it requires the blood of Jesus to remove the stain of sin. And the blood of Jesus is received in baptism (1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Doug Brents]

It is not.
Primitive thinking envisioned material mechanisms to ensure the favor or grace of their gods.
That’s why, for the Samaritan woman, it was so important to know WHERE to worship… whether in Mount Gerizim as her ancestors or on Jerusalem’s Temple. Worshiping in the WRONG location could mean that God would not accept prayers or deliver forgiveness.
But Jesus said that was not meant to be considered important.
The Father looks a kind of worshippers who worship Him in spirit, in sincerity.

Certainly God looks for sincere worshipers, and that is why He demands faith (the active response to His Gospel) before He pours out His blessing of salvation. Just a thought is not faith. Just lip-service is not faith. Faith requires obedient action.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Certainly God looks for sincere worshipers, and that is why He demands faith (the active response to His Gospel) before He pours out His blessing of salvation. Just a thought is not faith. Just lip-service is not faith. Faith requires obedient action.

Yes, absolutely. And that’s why the Samaritan woman as many others, worried about where exactly to worship God… in mount A or in mount B. Since faith entails obedience, it was of utmost importance to obey God in regard to the place of worship.
Jesus, however, showed that such obedience (obedience to a specific ritual) was not the obedience God was primarily interested on.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My poor (deleted personal comment) friend, the sacrifices of the Law of Moses were a poor, weak shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, God desires mercy more than sacrifice, but the sacrifice is still necessary. As Heb 9:22 says, there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. But the blood of sheep and bulls is not sufficient to remove sins, only the blood of Jesus will do it. And baptism is not just a symbol; it is the point in time established by God that He removes the stain of our sins and makes us pure, holy, and righteous (Eph 5:26-27).

People die in their sins when they repent and surrender in baptism. As I have said before, if you walk into the mud and turn around out of the mud (repent), you are still dirty and covered in mud. You must wash the mud off in order to be clean, and just turning around does not wash the mud off. But the mud of sin cannot be washed off by normal washing; it requires the blood of Jesus to remove the stain of sin. And the blood of Jesus is received in baptism (1 Pet 3:21).

Please notice that you are talking in a symbolic manner. You say that the blood of Jesus is received in baptism. That is obviously symbolic language…and by the way, it is not the symbol used by Peter in 1 Pet 3:21, which is The resurrection.
We could say that in baptism the believers are resurrected with Christ to a new life. That would be a proper way to put it…although still figurative, as God transforms the life of the believer over time.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My poor (deleted personal comment) friend, the sacrifices of the Law of Moses were a poor, weak shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, God desires mercy more than sacrifice, but the sacrifice is still necessary.

King David did not think that way.
The longest and more explicit passage about forgiveness, Psalm 51, makes forgiveness rely exclusively on God’s mercy and NOT in any bloody sacrifice… neither present nor future…neither animal nor messianic.

Blood shedding has NEVER been a condition for God’s mercy. Not in the days of Moses, not in the days of Jesus, not now, not tomorrow. That’s why any Jew living in your neighborhood, just as any Jew living in Egypt or Rome y the time of Jesus, is not / was not concerned about killing a lamb to get God forgiveness when they had committed adultery.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, absolutely. And that’s why the Samaritan woman as many others, worried about where exactly to worship God… in mount A or in mount B. Since faith entails obedience, it was of utmost importance to obey God in regard to the place of worship.
Jesus, however, showed that such obedience (obedience to a specific ritual) was not the obedience God was primarily interested on.

Before Jesus, the worshiping of God on this mountain vs that mountain was very important. Remember the man who was struck dead because he touched the Ark? Just because they were moving the Ark improperly, God struck him dead, even though he was trying to keep the Ark from falling. So too, it is important today to worship God in the proper way (spirit and truth).

Please notice that you are talking in a symbolic manner. You say that the blood of Jesus is received in baptism. That is obviously symbolic language…and by the way, it is not the symbol used by Peter in 1 Pet 3:21, which is The resurrection.
We could say that in baptism the believers are resurrected with Christ to a new life. That would be a proper way to put it…although still figurative, as God transforms the life of the believer over time.

Certainly it is symbolic. But as you noted, a person is resurrected with Christ IN BAPTISM (not before or outside of). Rom 6 and Col 2 make it very clear that it is during baptism that we are united with the blood of Jesus (which washes us clean), and through His blood we are resurrected by the Holy Spirit.

By the way, the death and resurrection of Jesus are a unit. Without His death He could not have been resurrected. It is His blood which washes us clean (1 John 1:7). His resurrection proves that He was the Messiah (1 Cor 15:14).

King David did not think that way.
The longest and more explicit passage about forgiveness, Psalm 51, makes forgiveness rely exclusively on God’s mercy and NOT in any bloody sacrifice… neither present nor future…neither animal nor messianic.

That is completely wrong. God is just, and He cannot violate His character, so He cannot just ignore sin. There MUST be a punishment for sin (because the cost of sin is death (Rom 6:23)), and that punishment must be paid in full. Jesus took that punishment for all those who trust in Him, and in exchange gave us His righteousness. Without His sacrifice there would be no possibility of forgiveness at all.

Blood shedding has NEVER been a condition for God’s mercy. Not in the days of Moses, not in the days of Jesus, not now, not tomorrow. That’s why any Jew living in your neighborhood, just as any Jew living in Egypt or Rome y the time of Jesus, is not / was not concerned about killing a lamb to get God forgiveness when they had committed adultery.

Pancho, I know you don't believe the Bible so I don't expect you to know what it says or how to apply what it says. So I am not surprised that you would say something so totally wrong. As I said in post #3501, Heb 9:22 says clearly that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.