"Works Salvation"

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is no evidence that the Spirit falling ON Cornelius and his household equals salvation. The Spirit fell on Cornelius in the same way He fell on the Apostles on Pentecost. And they were already saved, having the indwelling of the Spirit since John 20:22. On Pentecost the Spirit fell ON (not INTO) the 120 people there giving them tongues and praise, and when He fell on Cornelius He gave them tongues and praise (exactly the same in both cases). Further, if they were saved when the Spirit fell on them, then there would have been no need to baptize them in water. The "sign" of their faith would have already been seen by those who were present. But Peter commanded that they be baptized in water so that their sins would be washed away, the same as He told the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:38), and the same that Ananias told Saul in Damascus (Acts 22:16).

Baptism has no power to wash out sins. God’s power to change lives does.
So, you know that Fatimah, your Palestine neighbor and Kindergarden teacher has been given salvation when you witness her renovated life.
Baptism is no more than an external sign, just as circumcision, fasting, Sabbath keeping, participating in the Lord’s Supper, keeping your hair uncut or making a pilgrimage to Mecca.

 

[Jim]

Baptism has no power to wash out sins. God’s power to change lives does.
So, you know that Fatimah, your Palestine neighbor and Kindergarden teacher has been given salvation when you witness her renovated life.
Baptism is no more than an external sign, just as circumcision, fasting, Sabbath keeping, participating in the Lord’s Supper, keeping your hair uncut or making a pilgrimage to Mecca.

It is true that baptism is not the power that washes away sin. But it is the occasion in the life of the repentant believer when God washes away sin. When baptism is spoken of in relation to salvation, baptism always precedes forgiveness, the washing away, of sin. It is the occasion when God forgives the sinner.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is true that baptism is not the power that washes away sin. But it is the occasion in the life of the repentant believer when God washes away sin. When baptism is spoken of in relation to salvation, baptism always precedes forgiveness, the washing away, of sin. It is the occasion when God forgives the sinner.

Hi Jim

Baptism requires people to repent sincerely first. And there is no gap between sincere repentance and God’s forgiveness.
If it took a lady say, four hours or four days to find an available apostle to baptize her and a place with enough water to do it, does it mean that God would wait those four hours or four days withholding His forgiveness?

Certianly not, my brother. God would know the intention of the woman, as He knows every heart.
God’s grace does not depend on any material sign or ritual contingency.
Same thing with blood shedding. God’s didn’t need the priest to effectively kill a lamb in the tabernacle or temple, following a specific procedure, to forgive a sinner who had repented sincerely.

All those were exercises that 1) helped the sinner to keep in their memories their commitment 2) help the community to identify such commitment

 

[Jim]

Hi Jim

Baptism requires people to repent sincerely first. And there is no gap between sincere repentance and God’s forgiveness.
If it took a lady say, four hours or four days to find an available apostle to baptize her and a place with enough water to do it, does it mean that God would wait those four hours or four days withholding His forgiveness?

Certianly not, my brother. God would know the intention of the woman, as He knows every heart.
God’s grace does not depend on any material sign or ritual contingency.
Same thing with blood shedding. God’s didn’t need the priest to effectively kill a lamb in the tabernacle or temple, following a specific procedure, to forgive a sinner who had repented sincerely.

All those were exercises that 1) helped the sinner to keep in their memories their commitment 2) help the community to identify such commitment

A couple of comments here. First of all, there is never any value associated with the one doing the baptizing. In fact 1 Corinthians 2 condemns that idea. Second, I personally think that one could in fact self-baptize since the baptizer is of no consequence. Third, I leave those "what ifs" completely up to God in the event that there is a delay or an impossibility in the baptism of the repentant believer. But I would never, intentionally, develop any aspect of doctrine of soteriology on such "what ifs". There is more that can be said in this regard, given God's foreknowledge, but I will leave it there.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A couple of comments here. First of all, there is never any value associated with the one doing the baptizing. In fact 1 Corinthians 2 condemns that idea. Second, I personally think that one could in fact self-baptize since the baptizer is of no consequence. Third, I leave those "what ifs" completely up to God in the event that there is a delay or an impossibility in the baptism of the repentant believer. But I would never, intentionally, develop any aspect of doctrine of soteriology on such "what ifs". There is more that can be said in this regard, given God's foreknowledge, but I will leave it there.

Those “what ifs” are not speculations for rhetoric purposes… they are daily FACTS.
So, a theology that accounts for the daily facts of existence is indeed a good theology.
Jesus Himself used a lot of daily facts as “what ifs” in his parables.

For example, sinning without the possibility of making the trip to Jerusalem’s Temple to offer a sacrifice was a fact of life for thousands or millions. Not having enough water for immersion was a fact in the lives of many people. That’s why baptism by aspersion became popular, and then, in the sands of Arabian desert, a “baptism of the heart”, so to speak, by uttering words.

 

[Doug Brents]

Baptism has no power to wash out sins. God’s power to change lives does.

100% agreed.

So, you know that Fatimah, your Palestine neighbor and Kindergarden teacher has been given salvation when you witness her renovated life.
Baptism is no more than an external sign, just as circumcision, fasting, Sabbath keeping, participating in the Lord’s Supper, keeping your hair uncut or making a pilgrimage to Mecca.

No, it is not. Mecca is mentioned NOWHERE in Scripture. The muslim religion is nothing more than an offshoot of Judaism from Ismael. They deny Jesus as the Christ, and don't even have the Law of Moses (through which the Christ came). Circumcision, fasting, sabbath keeping, participating in the Lord’s Supper, keeping your hair uncut, etc. are all commandments given under the Law, but none of them are part of the New Covenant of Christ. But none of those commandments result in righteousness being given by God or received by the person.

But baptism is commanded, and said to result in righteousness being received by the person, and righteousness is said to be given by God in baptism.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

100% agreed.

No, it is not. Mecca is mentioned NOWHERE in Scripture. The muslim religion is nothing more than an offshoot of Judaism from Ismael. They deny Jesus as the Christ, and don't even have the Law of Moses (through which the Christ came). Circumcision, fasting, sabbath keeping, participating in the Lord’s Supper, keeping your hair uncut, etc. are all commandments given under the Law, but none of them are part of the New Covenant of Christ. But none of those commandments result in righteousness being given by God or received by the person.

But baptism is commanded, and said to result in righteousness being received by the person, and righteousness is said to be given by God in baptism.

Animal Sacrifices were also commanded, explicitly for the atonement of sins.
So, the fact that some verses in the New Testament refer to baptism in the context of forgiveness of sins (or righteousness, as you say) is no more valid that verses in the Torah that commanded animal sacrifices,
Animal sacrifices could not wash out sins, just as baptism cannot wash out sins.
In both cases, it was God who erased sin by His mercy.

 

[Jim]

Animal Sacrifices were also commanded, explicitly for the atonement of sins.
So, the fact that some verses in the New Testament refer to baptism in the context of forgiveness of sins (or righteousness, as you say) is no more valid that verses in the Torah that commanded animal sacrifices,
Animal sacrifices could not wash out sins, just as baptism cannot wash out sins.
In both cases, it was God who erased sin by His mercy.

Neither the animal sacrifice nor baptism is the agent of forgiveness of sin. However, in both cases, it establishes the occasion, the time in the life of the repentant believer, that God in His mercy forgives the sins. Under the Old Law, such atonement was temporary and needed to be repeated; in the case of Jesus' sacrifice the atonement was perfect, it was complete; it was once and done never to be repeated. Washing away of the sins of any given individual was and is accomplished by God when the repentant believer is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, i.e., baptized into Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

Animal Sacrifices were also commanded, explicitly for the atonement of sins.

Animal sacrifice cannot atone for sin. It merely pushes the condemnation for the sin forward until the proper time for something that can atone for sin comes along (Jesus' blood).

So, the fact that some verses in the New Testament refer to baptism in the context of forgiveness of sins (or righteousness, as you say) is no more valid that verses in the Torah that commanded animal sacrifices,

Not true. Scripture says that forgiveness of sin/righteousness is received during water baptism. Righteousness is received/credited because of faith, and the action of faith that is required by God is baptism.

Animal sacrifices could not wash out sins, just as baptism cannot wash out sins.
In both cases, it was God who erased sin by His mercy.

Again, true. But that does not support or advance your agenda. @Jim said it very well in post #3488 above.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Scripture says that forgiveness of sin/righteousness is received during water baptism. Righteousness is received/credited because of faith, and the action of faith that is required by God is baptism.

I see your point... and I also see at least four big problems with taking that literally

1) There is no single shred of evidence in the Torah that priests and sinners believed that animal sacrifices "pushed the condemnation for the sin forward until the proper time for Jesus sacrifice". That's a post-hoc interpretation. God never revealed that when He gave the commandment for animal sacrifices. Atonement of sin through animal sacrifices was mentioned as literally as washing of sins through baptism.
2) The Gospel shows examples of people who were forgiven or granted access to paradise without baptism, even when baptism already existed.
3) There is a time gap between repentance and the execution of the act of baptism
4) If baptism were the occasion in which forgiveness of sin is received, then we would have to get baptized hundreds of times during our life. Indeed, the literal interpretation of baptism as a sin-washing event led some people in early Christianity to wait until death was near to get baptized. Perhaps Constantine is a good example.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Neither the animal sacrifice nor baptism is the agent of forgiveness of sin. However, in both cases, it establishes the occasion, the time in the life of the repentant believer, that God in His mercy forgives the sins. Under the Old Law, such atonement was temporary and needed to be repeated; in the case of Jesus' sacrifice the atonement was perfect, it was complete; it was once and done never to be repeated. Washing away of the sins of any given individual was and is accomplished by God when the repentant believer is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, i.e., baptized into Christ.

Let's be careful when we speak of rituals of symbols... otherwise we run the risk of placing the symbol or ritual above the meaning that God intended... just as Judaizers did when they pressed Gentiles to get circumcised to prove their commitment to God.

In a wedding ceremony, the husband and wife do not start loving each only just after some magical words are pronounced.
In a graduation ceremony, the graduate in Medicine does not suddenly know how to deal with an appendicitis in the moment he or she receives the certificate in paper.
The Holy Spirit does not need someone with authority to lay hands on your head to act on your heart.
The believer does not start remembering Jesus sacrifice after he/she has participated in the Lord's supper.

Spiritual things, including forgiveness of sins, happen independently of the external sign or ritual that testifies of such spiritual thing.

I do value symbols and rituals. I like them. I think they were given for a reason by God to teach us, to help us.
But symbols and rituals are symbols and rituals... not the inner event.

 

[Jim]

I do value symbols and rituals. I like them. I think they were given for a reason by God to teach us, to help us.
But symbols and rituals are symbols and rituals... not the inner event.

God cannot let sin go unpunished. Forgiveness does not replace punishment. God can forgive sin, but that sin must still be punished. In the case of animal sacrifices, there was forgiveness, but there was no punishment. In the case of John's water baptism, there was forgiveness for the repentant believer but there was no punishment. In the case of Christian water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, there is forgiveness for the repentant believer and as a result of Jesus' sacrifice there is punishment. Actually, the punishment that came from Jesus' sacrifice was retroactive back to those whose sins were forgiven through the animal sacrifices and John's water baptism. So then, in all three cases of animal sacrifices, John's water baptism and Christian water baptism, there was and is forgiveness of sin. The necessary punishment for sin was paid for by Jesus' sacrifice for all those whose sin was forgiven. It is important to understand that Christian water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was greater still. It provides for the giving of the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. That gift was not given in the case of animal sacrifices and John's water baptism. That is strictly a New Covenant feature.

So while, as you say, symbols and rituals may not be the inner event, but they are, or can be, more than simply teaching events. In the case of forgiveness of sin, it is the means whereby God accepts the punishment paid by Jesus' sacrifice in the place of the punishment paid by the sinner whose sins are forgiven. The sacrifice paid by Jesus is a gift sufficient for the entire world. Forgiveness of sin is the necessary "inner event" for receiving that gift.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God cannot let sin go unpunished. Forgiveness does not replace punishment. God can forgive sin, but that sin must still be punished

Why do you say that?
To forgive implies to exempt the offender from the punishment he deserves. That’s what Jesus taught.
Please read again the parable of the king who forgives the debt of his servant. There was no jail for the debtor.
Review the parable of the prodigal son. He was nos treated as a servant, that is what he deserved.

 

[Jim]

Why do you say that?
To forgive implies to exempt the offender from the punishment he deserves. That’s what Jesus taught.
Please read again the parable of the king who forgives the debt of his servant. There was no jail for the debtor.
Review the parable of the prodigal son. He was nos treated as a servant, that is what he deserved.

Clearly forgiveness of sin was given through the Old Covenant animal sacrifices. The Bible says so. And clearly forgiveness of sin was given through the baptism of John. The Bible says so. If that is true, and I believe it is because that is what the Bible says, then there must be more to it than forgiveness of sin. So that if forgiveness exempts the offender from the punishment he deserves, then the death of Christ was unnecessary. But it was necessary. Paul speaks about justification, about our being justified. I believe that it is in being justified we are more than just forgiven of sin. Being justified is a state of being. God sees us, views us, considers us differently. He can and does see us differently because the punishment for sin has been accomplished. And it was accomplished once and for all. It is in the forgiveness of sin that it is applied. It is applied retroactively to all those whose sins were forgiven before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and actively for those forgiven after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Before Jesus' sacrifice, sins were forgiven for the repentant believer through the animal sacrifices and the baptism of John. After Jesus' sacrifice sins were forgiven for the repentant believer through Christian baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

I see your point... and I also see at least four big problems with taking that literally

1) There is no single shred of evidence in the Torah that priests and sinners believed that animal sacrifices "pushed the condemnation for the sin forward until the proper time for Jesus sacrifice". That's a post-hoc interpretation. God never revealed that when He gave the commandment for animal sacrifices. Atonement of sin through animal sacrifices was mentioned as literally as washing of sins through baptism.

Heb 10:1-4 tells us clearly that sin is not removed, and cannot be removed by animal sacrifices. Those animal sacrifices simply pacified God's anger until the true atonement for sin (Jesus) came.

And Scripture says that it is in baptism that we are united with Jesus' blood by which we are cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).

2) The Gospel shows examples of people who were forgiven or granted access to paradise without baptism, even when baptism already existed.

There is NO example of anyone saved without being baptized. Many here have proposed examples that they believe give such examples, but every one of them have been shown to be either taken out of context (Cornelius' household), or not be relevant because they were still part of the OT (thief on the cross).

3) There is a time gap between repentance and the execution of the act of baptism

Salvation is not given because of repentance alone, so any time gap is irrelevant. but there doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a time gap.

4) If baptism were the occasion in which forgiveness of sin is received, then we would have to get baptized hundreds of times during our life.

Wrong. Just as with Jesus' death only needing to have happened once for all mankind of all time to receive forgiveness of sin, so too baptism only needs to happen once for all sin to continually be forgiven (1 John 1:7).

Indeed, the literal interpretation of baptism as a sin-washing event led some people in early Christianity to wait until death was near to get baptized. Perhaps Constantine is a good example.

And many died still in their sins because of this error in thinking and teaching. Scripture is very clear that salvation (baptism) should be sought today, now, as soon as possible. Any teaching that puts baptism off until later is contradictory to Scriptural teaching and example.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Heb 10:1-4 tells us clearly that sin is not removed, and cannot be removed by animal sacrifices. Those animal sacrifices simply pacified God's anger until the true atonement for sin (Jesus) came.

And Scripture says that it is in baptism that we are united with Jesus' blood by which we are cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).

There is NO example of anyone saved without being baptized. Many here have proposed examples that they believe give such examples, but every one of them have been shown to be either taken out of context (Cornelius' household), or not be relevant because they were still part of the OT (thief on the cross).

Salvation is not given because of repentance alone, so any time gap is irrelevant. but there doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a time gap.

Wrong. Just as with Jesus' death only needing to have happened once for all mankind of all time to receive forgiveness of sin, so too baptism only needs to happen once for all sin to continually be forgiven (1 John 1:7).

And many died still in their sins because of this error in thinking and teaching. Scripture is very clear that salvation (baptism) should be sought today, now, as soon as possible. Any teaching that puts baptism off until later is contradictory to Scriptural teaching and example.

What about the fact that Paul explicitly separates salvation from beptism.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

If baptism were required for salvation Paul’s statement would make no sense. Preaching the gospel would be incomplete without baptizing. Yet Paul clearly distinguishes the two.

Fact: Salvation is consistently tied to scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. IOW belief brings eternal life.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. IOW belief passes from death to life.

Romans 10:9-10 ~ 9,that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10, for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. IOW belief saves.

Eph 2: 8-9~ 8, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. IOW, this most often quoted verse in these forums says saved by grace through faith.

None of these add baptism as a condition for salvation.

Biblically baptism is a public identification with Jesus, an act of obedience and a testimony of faith already present

It is important, commanded, and expected — but it is never presented as the mechanism that causes salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

What about the fact that Paul explicitly separates salvation from beptism.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

If baptism were required for salvation Paul’s statement would make no sense. Preaching the gospel would be incomplete without baptizing. Yet Paul clearly distinguishes the two.

No, Paul does not separate salvation from baptism. He explicitly states that he came to plant the seed, as a farmer does in the spring. He did not expect to reap a harvest immediately (although in some cases he did, as with Crispusm, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas). A farmer knows that he must plant the seed before he can reap a harvest, and he doesn't go into the field in spring expecting to harvest immediately.

Fact: Salvation is consistently tied to scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. IOW belief brings eternal life.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. IOW belief passes from death to life.

Romans 10:9-10 ~ 9,that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10, for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. IOW belief saves.

Eph 2: 8-9~ 8, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. IOW, this most often quoted verse in these forums says saved by grace through faith.

None of these add baptism as a condition for salvation.

Correct. But these verses do not stand alone. Every Scripture that speaks of salvation must be considered together, not separately. With these you must also include 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, and many others; all of which state that salvation is received during water baptism.

Biblically baptism is a public identification with Jesus, an act of obedience and a testimony of faith already present

It is important, commanded, and expected — but it is never presented as the mechanism that causes salvation.

1 Pet 3:21 - baptism now saves you
Acts 22:16 - arise and be baptized and wash away your sins
Rom 6:2-4 - died to sin still live in it ... baptized into His death ... buried with Him through baptism into death
Col 2:12 - buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith

Not only is baptism "important, commanded, and expected", it is also the mechanism through which God delivers His forgiveness.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Heb 10:1-4 tells us clearly that sin is not removed, and cannot be removed by animal sacrifices. Those animal sacrifices simply pacified God's anger until the true atonement for sin (Jesus) came.

Hi Doug!
May God keep blessing you and your family in 2026

Do you believe that sacrifices pacified God’s anger?
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

Animal sacrifices cannot not alter God’s mercy or justice. They were a symbol, a ritual that helped people in cultures that already practiced animal sacrifices. They did it to pacify the anger of their gods. Hebrews were part of such cultures.
God has never needed blood to forgive sins, or to “get calm”, and King David knew it well.

“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

So, we are talking here about symbols and rituals, Doug.
Baptism is also a symbol, a ritual. It does not matter if it is mentioned in the Old Testament or New Testament or Quran or any sacred text. A symbol is a symbol. A ritual is a ritual. It is a resource, an aid for our memory and emotions, but has no intrinsic power to perform any spiritual change.

And many died still in their sins because of this error in thinking and teaching.

People die in their sins when they do not repent. Not when they have intellectual errors.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not only is baptism "important, commanded, and expected", it is also the mechanism through which God delivers His forgiveness.

It is not.
Primitive thinking envisioned material mechanisms to ensure the favor or grace of their gods.
That’s why, for the Samaritan woman, it was so important to know WHERE to worship… whether in Mount Gerizim as her ancestors or on Jerusalem’s Temple. Worshiping in the WRONG location could mean that God would not accept prayers or deliver forgiveness.
But Jesus said that was not meant to be considered important.
The Father looks a kind of worshippers who worship Him in spirit, in sincerity.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Do you believe that sacrifices pacified God’s anger?
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

According to the OT, God explicitly commanded animal sacrifices as part of the Mosaic Law given to Israel.

The book of Leviticus details these instructions directly from God through Moses. Such as in
Leviticus 1:1–9 which describes the burnt offering procedure, starting with "The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him... 'When anyone brings a grain offering... or livestock...'" and specifying animals like bulls, sheep, or goats to be slaughtered and burned as "a pleasing aroma to the Lord."

And similar commands appear throughout Leviticus 1–7 for various offerings (burnt, sin, guilt, peace), with repeated phrases like "as the Lord commanded Moses." Or ,Exodus 29 and Numbers also include God's direct orders for sacrificial rituals, such as for priestly ordination or atonement.

These sacrifices served purposes , at the time, like atonement for sin (Leviticus 4:35: "atonement is made... and they will be forgiven"), thanksgiving, and fellowship, while symbolizing the cost of sin and the need for a substitute (Hebrews 9:22 in the New Testament reflects this: "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness").

So " Do you believe that sacrifices pacified God’s anger?" Pacify? Who knows but for certain God wanted and expected.