"Works Salvation"

brightfame52 said:
You deceived believing in salvation by works, what else to say ? Thats not attacking your character, you probably a nice guy, honest and religious.
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"Salvation by works"? I do not now, nor have I ever believed in "salvation by works".

You are deluded in thinking that just because we have to perform an action (like looking at a bronze serpent, or dipping in Jordan 7 times, or marching around a city for 7 days, or giving our last piece of bread to a stranger, or being baptized) means that we are "earning" or "meriting", or in any way deserve the gift that was promised if those things were/are done.

Paul's contrasting "works" vs "grace" does not preclude ANY ACTION WHATSOEVER. Not all actions are actions of merit. As Jesus makes the comparison in Luke 17:7-10, a servant who does what he is told does not deserve even a "thank you" from his Master. He is completely unprofitable to the Master, but the Master has promised that He will give certain gifts to the servant if certain actions are performed (repentance, confession, and baptism).

Another example is the first commandments with a promise (Eph 6:2-3). Do we "deserve" long life and for it to go well with us just because we honor our parents? NO. But God promised it to those who do. It is not just wishing good to our parents, not just believing that God will bless those who honor their parents, but actually showing honor to our parents that is blessed by God.
 
Jim said:
The gospel of God is the power of God unto salvation. It is the lost that need to be saved. Salvation is for the lost.
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For the saved. The Gospel of Salvation isnt for the Lost. See the Gospel is for them who are saved/Justified by the righteousness of Christ, that righteousness is revealed to faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 ;For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The lost person doesnt have any righteousness, in fact, to the lost the Gospel is foolishness 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross/or Gospel is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The word perish is the greek word ἀπόλλυμι:
  1. to destroy
    1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
    2. render useless
    3. to kill
    4. to declare that one must be put to death
    5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
    6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
  2. to destroy
    1. to lose

Its also in this verse in the present tense They are presently in a lost state, and in that state or condition, the Gospel is nothing but foolishness to them.

In order for it to be the power of God unto Salvation or conversion, one must be in a saved state or condition. Only the regenerated are being converted by the Gospel, not the lost Jim, you have been deceived in this matter.

It is the lost that need to be saved
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Yes and Jesus saved the Lost Sheep on the Cross when He died for them, then He sends them the Gospel. You dont send the Gospel to the Lost, but to the saved,.

The Gospel doesnt save people from their sins sir, Jesus only does that, then the Gospel makes it known to the saved.
 
Doug Brents said:
"Salvation by works"? I do not now, nor have I ever believed in "salvation by works".

You are deluded in thinking that just because we have to perform an action (like looking at a bronze serpent, or dipping in Jordan 7 times, or marching around a city for 7 days, or giving our last piece of bread to a stranger, or being baptized) means that we are "earning" or "meriting", or in any way deserve the gift that was promised if those things were/are done.

Paul's contrasting "works" vs "grace" does not preclude ANY ACTION WHATSOEVER. Not all actions are actions of merit. As Jesus makes the comparison in Luke 17:7-10, a servant who does what he is told does not deserve even a "thank you" from his Master. He is completely unprofitable to the Master, but the Master has promised that He will give certain gifts to the servant if certain actions are performed (repentance, confession, and baptism).

Another example is the first commandments with a promise (Eph 6:2-3). Do we "deserve" long life and for it to go well with us just because we honor our parents? NO. But God promised it to those who do. It is not just wishing good to our parents, not just believing that God will bless those who honor their parents, but actually showing honor to our parents that is blessed by God.
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Yeah, you deceived into believing salvation is by your works, in total rebellion and disregard that Salvation is by Grace Eph 2:5,8-10

But you have believed a strong delusion that its by works. Nobody will ever convince you differently unless God has Mercy on you. I hope He does, but its out of my control friend
 
brightfame52 said:
Yeah, you deceived into believing salvation is by your works, in total rebellion and disregard that Salvation is by Grace Eph 2:5,8-10
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You, and many others, have perverted the meaning of Eph 2. It does not mean that there is nothing man must do to receive salvation. That concept is disproved by Rom 10:9-10, which clearly places a physical action as resulting in receiving salvation.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Its in the present tense.

meaning it is not past tense. or future tense. but happening right now. anytime you read it

Try reading the word and make it fit your belief system, not the other way around
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So what? You are reading a text from Alexandria, not the original.
Eternally-Grateful said:
NO!!!!!!

IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN WE DECIEVE OURSELVES, and there is no truth in us

Sin is in the same present tense.. It means right here right now. and he included himself.

You can not deny you have sin.. if you think you are sinless. You have no room to grow. you have made and achieved what even Paul could not do
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Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that in verse 9 you are cleansed of ALL UNRIGTHEOUSNESS? If you do, how can you say you have uncleansed sin?

EG, it has to do with the type of sin. There are two.
 
brightfame52 said:
For the saved. The Gospel of Salvation isnt for the Lost. See the Gospel is for them who are saved/Justified by the righteousness of Christ, that righteousness is revealed to faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek
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Which says, of course, that first one believes the gospel and to them is given the power of God in order to receive salvation.
 
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charismaticlady said:
So what? You are reading a text from Alexandria, not the original.
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So it is not present tense. God allowed the word to be tainted?

come on sis.. you can do better than this
charismaticlady said:
Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that in verse 9 you are cleansed of ALL UNRIGTHEOUSNESS? If you do, how can you say you have uncleansed sin?

EG, it has to do with the type of sin. There are two.
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Yes. I am cleansed of the penalty of sin. When God looks at me, He does not see my filth. he sees his son.

Like Abraham, I believed, and he accounted it to me a righteousness.

He did not make me a moral sinner one second, and a sinless saint the next.

This is not in Gods word.

Once again. If you say you have no sin, you are deceived.

there is nothing further to say.
 
brightfame52 said:
For the saved. The Gospel of Salvation isnt for the Lost
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This statement contradicts itself.
The  Gospel of salvation( the word of shows a relationship between the Gospel and salvation.

The Gospel of Salvation can be expressed as follows,
The Gospel  about Salvation.
The Gospel that brings Salvation. Gospel is the means by which salvation is offered.
The Gospel belonging to Salvation.

So rephrasing brightfame52's eisegesis to more clearly see the contradiction he made it reads,
brightfame52 said:
The Gospel that brings Salvation isnt for the Lost.
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brightfame52 said:
The Gospel  about Salvation isnt for the Lost.
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brightfame52 said:
The Gospel belonging to Salvation isnt for the Lost.
Click to expand...

If one reads the Bible without learning the meaning of common words like of. They will struggle to understand/ comprehend what they read.

brightfame52's statement about the gospel corrected to fit Biblical teaching should read as follows:
The Gospel of Salvation is for the Lost.

1Peter 1:17 ; 22-23,
- seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth(gospel) through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently...
- being born again....by the word of God(gospel) which liveth and abideth forever

Being regenerated by the gospel is Peter's Inspired teaching.
Which contradicts brightfame52's teaching that the gospel isnt for the lost,
brightfame52 said:
The Gospel of Salvation isn't for the Lost
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We should always believe the Inspired apostles doctrine over uninspired men like John Calvin.

Paul and Peter both agree that the purpose of the gospel is to save the alien sinner.
Paul and Peter make it clear that the gospel is the power of God to regenerate(born again) the lost.
1Corinthians 4:15,
- for though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel

James 1:18,
- of his own will begat he us with the word of truth(gospel) that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures

Romans 1:16,
- for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it(gospel) is the power of God unto salvation
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
So it is not present tense. God allowed the word to be tainted?

come on sis.. you can do better than this

Yes. I am cleansed of the penalty of sin. When God looks at me, He does not see my filth. he sees his son.

Like Abraham, I believed, and he accounted it to me a righteousness.

He did not make me a moral sinner one second, and a sinless saint the next.

This is not in Gods word.

Once again. If you say you have no sin, you are deceived.

there is nothing further to say.
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The original is commit. That means even once. But think about it. It is about the Ten Commandments. Can you commit murder even once, or just not practice murder, slipping occasionally?
 
brightfame52 said:
How can I when apparently you are under strong delusion to believe a lie ?
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I am under no delusions. If you can show me in Scripture that I am wrong, then I will change my mind. But your explanation must agree with ALL of Scripture, not a misinterpretation of some passage, and not ignoring, excluding, or overlooking some passages. I have been asking people who believe as you do, on this and other forums and in person, for 10 years to show me that I am wrong, but I have yet to see anyone show that Scripture says I am wrong.

It does, however, state clearly that you are wrong. Rom 10:9-10 states clearly and explicitly that there is a physical action that results in receiving salvation, and that completely destroys your interpretation of Eph 2:8-9.
 
brightfame52 said:
@Doug Brents



Yes you are. Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works Eph 2:8-9
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Salvation is by grace through faith, yes.
Unfortunately you don't teach this.
Your doctrine eliminates the gospel all together.
Your salvation is by grace absent of faith(gospel).
You teach you are saved before faith before belief in Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is The Faith not personal belief.
The definite article the is before the word faith in Ephesians 2:8-9.
It's a real disservice to Gods word that the translators left this extremely important word out of the KJV and NKJV.

The faith is the system of faith i.e. the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So it reads,
- for by grace are ye saved through the gospel of Jesus Christ and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast

Civic has an excellent post on these two Bible verses.
If you haven't read his post on Ephesians 2:8-9. I reccomend you do.

Paul never taught all salvation is personal belief alone.
Paul taught grace and faith in the gospel saves.

Just like Jesus did,
Mark 16:15-16,
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature he who believes(personal faith) and is baptized will be saved; he who believes not will be condemned

Remember the words of Jesus' gospel when you read Paul's epistle to the church in Ephesus, Ephesians 2:8-9.
 

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