"Works Salvation"

[charismaticlady]

we're just the ones who "do the stopping"

We are to repent in order to be saved. But turning from a sin you love is impossible, so it is not US who do the stopping while the desire remains!

Our possession of "personal desires" remains, but over time, will be subjugated as the Holy Spirit works IN us. If you're honest with yourself, you know that your OWN "Personal desires" (LUSTS) didn't just "Disappear", but as you proceed to "Crucify the flesh" (as Paul did), they lose their "bite".

Right. It is impossible if the desires remain. But it is NOT over time can WE change our desires. We must tell God the truth that we cannot turn from our sin so we must ask God to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and change our desires to love what God loves and hate what God hates. The power is all Christ's. And that happens through the Holy Spirit in an instant. John 15:3 "we are clean." This makes us "righteous." 1 John 3:7. That would be impossible if our nature was still sinful. Jesus doesn't leave our nature with those desires. They are gone because of the seed of the Father that makes us clean without the desire to sin. Many believe the lie that Jesus' blood can't do that, that we still have the sin nature. No, our nature partakes of the divine nature of God.

Romans 8:28,29 indicates that the process of being conformed to Jesus Image is a process.

Yes, it is a process, and that process is called glorification, Romans 8:30" He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" and the end result is holiness Revelation 22:11, also called "perfection." The process is spelled out by Peter in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Most people believe erroneously the process is called sanctification. But in scripture sanctification is past tense and happens at justification when we are cleansed. 1 Corinthians 6:11 "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

 

[Bob Carabbio]

We are to repent in order to be saved. But turning from a sin you love is impossible, so it is not US who do the stopping while the desire remains!

RIDICULOUS!!! God says "Don't do thata', and we have nothing to do with repenting???

Right. It is impossible if the desires remain.

Not at all. desire not withstanding, we CAN of our own free will STOP doing what's displeasing to God. do you SERIOUSLY think you're HELPLESS to decide not to do something that You desire to do???

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The desire to sin remains.

SO??? are you so weak-willed that you're FORCED to do something just because you feel like it??? YOU are the one who "Crucifies the flesh just like Paul did, "Dying daily".

 

[charismaticlady]

RIDICULOUS!!! God says "Don't do thata', and we have nothing to do with repenting???

Hi Bob! It is great to finally after all this time to actually converse with you. We are both Spirit-filled believers after all. So we have that important detail in common. It is just this subject on sinning that I've studied according to my own supernatural conversion in 1977 that I've looked at that was anything but my human will that we do not have in common. What you are saying above is about the Jews and the Ten Commandments in the Old Covenant and remember it didn't make them righteous. That is because they didn't have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. They were in the flesh, and no one in the flesh can please God. The desire is just too all consuming. Only Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of our faith can make our repentance truthful. Our confession should be "Jesus, Help! I can't stop sinning! Please cleanse me of all desire to sin against You!" That's what I had to do back then when I was completely engulfed and a slave to the sin of adultery; I was in love with a married man.

Not at all. desire not withstanding, we CAN of our own free will STOP doing what's displeasing to God. do you SERIOUSLY think you're HELPLESS to decide not to do something that You desire to do???

At the time I did it your way, which is the common teaching on repentance. "Turning away." I broke up with him. But three days later I was about to lose my mind so got back together with him. I thought, I'll keep going to church and will try again when I'm stronger, so at the end of another month I tried again, and three days later got back together. That cycle went on for 6 months. Then it hit me. I was never going to be able to leave him alone, so I told God the truth after hearing a sermon on "integrity of heart - telling God the truth." I prayed and told God that I realized I couldn't do it. The desire was too strong. So if God wants this relationship broken He'll have to lay it on his heart to break up with me, and then give him the strength to stay away from me when I try to get him back, because I was done trying to on my own.

SO??? are you so weak-willed that you're FORCED to do something just because you feel like it??? YOU are the one who "Crucifies the flesh just like Paul did, "Dying daily".

Yes, I was that "weak-willed" as is everyone without the Spirit. Bob, I was not the author of my salvation and faith. Jesus had to do it, and He did. My confession was not empty promises. I confessed that I was lost without Him, and would remain lost unless He answered this prayer (which was the first prayer in my 30 year lifetime that was answered.) Only one week later with a few calamities in my life that I was living through, did my lover finally realize that he couldn't be there when I desperately needed him, so he broke up with me in order for me to find someone who could. I was shocked!

The rest of the story is part of my testimony. Without the details which are amazing, two weeks later I was filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit and ALL DESIRE TO SIN WAS GONE. I was set free of sin. Anything short of Jesus being the author of our confession to be saved is false and a lie.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The problem with that definition is that the stopping has to do with US doing the saving. The desire to sin remains.

Of course. why do you think that Paul had to "Die Daily" to his flesh??? The Rom 8:28,28 process gradually handles the "Desire to SIN".

There's NOTHING about "us doing the saving". the "Saving" has nothing to do with "Works, and everything to do with FAITH (Based on God's WORD TO US - conviction of SIN) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus at Calvary.

 

[charismaticlady]

Of course. why do you think that Paul had to "Die Daily" to his flesh??? The Rom 8:28,28 process gradually handles the "Desire to SIN".

There's NOTHING about "us doing the saving". the "Saving" has nothing to do with "Works, and everything to do with FAITH (Based on God's WORD TO US - conviction of SIN) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus at Calvary.

The verse you are referring to about "Die Daily" has been misinterpreted for centuries. Doesn't anyone ever read in context??? Paul meant "die" physically. His preaching put him in danger and why he spent so much time writing IN PRISON. He didn't have to rededicate his life to God "daily" as it looks like out of context. He was already crucified with Christ, and raised with Him sinless. Romans 6:5-7.

 

[Adherent]

What does 1 Corinthians 15:31 mean?​

The mission to take the gospel to those who have never heard sometimes results in a dangerous and costly life. The apostles were especially persecuted and troubled. Paul knew this better than most (2 Corinthians 11:24–28). He has been constantly under threat from Jewish religious leaders and Roman government officials, in addition to continuing the often under-funded work of a traveling evangelist and missionary.

Paul tells the Corinthians in this verse that he boasts about their coming to Christ as one of the success stories of his ministry. All of that would be worthless, he implies, if there was no resurrection from the dead. There would be no point to his dying "every day," likely meaning that he faced the real possibility of death constantly for the sake of Christ.

The point Paul makes here is one of his own sincerity. Would he continue to do any of this if Christ had not been resurrected and if none of those who follow Christ would be, either?

Bible Ref.

What did Paul mean when he said, “I die daily” in 1 Corinthians 15:31? | GotQuestions.org

What did Paul mean when he said, “I die daily”? What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:31?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The verse you are referring to about "Die Daily" has been misinterpreted for centuries. Doesn't anyone ever read in context??? Paul meant "die" physically. His preaching put him in danger and why he spent so much time writing IN PRISON. He didn't have to rededicate his life to God "daily" as it looks like out of context. He was already crucified with Christ, and raised with Him sinless. Romans 6:5-7.

Chuckle!!! and just when you KNOW it can't get any more ridiculous - it does.

 

[charismaticlady]

Chuckle!!! and just when you KNOW it can't get any more ridiculous - it does.

Wow, so not even me pointing out the correct context can make you check it out for yourself? You don't care what God means, just what Bob believes. Sad.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Wow, so not even me pointing out the correct context can make you check it out for yourself? You don't care what God means, just what Bob believes. Sad.

I doubt if you'd know the "Correct Context" if it bit you on the nose. Paul is clearly speaking of his OWN CARNAL DESIRES, that he has to overcome daily to continue hie ministry.

 

[charismaticlady]

I doubt if you'd know the "Correct Context" if it bit you on the nose. Paul is clearly speaking of his OWN CARNAL DESIRES, that he has to overcome daily to continue hie ministry.

It is clear as day that "in jeopardy" is arrested and maybe even martyred.

30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi, @Bob Carabbio and @charismaticlady

Please allow me to share my thoughts with you and our readers.
You both are right.
Let's not forget the issue of pride (vainglory) as the issue Paul was fighting against in his letters, and that led him to speak about the roles of the law and faith.

The problem resulting from thinking that we can work our salvation is that it is associated with a silly pride, vainglory, boastfulness, that make us think we are superior to our brothers. If we believe we are closer to God, or spiritually superior, and that such closeness or superiority is our achievement, we will feel justified to despise other men.

As long as we give God all the glory of the good things that happen to us, it is healthy to recognize our personal contribution.

Please reflect on the following question... we may get an insight of the meaning of personal effort and God's grace.
If your daughter studies hard at college and graduates with a Cum Laude, is it a good thing (for her, and for you as father or mother) to feel proud? What expressions of pride (and humbleness) would you consider spiritually healthy, and which ones you would not?

 

[charismaticlady]

Hi, @Bob Carabbio and @charismaticlady

Please allow me to share my thoughts with you and our readers.
You both are right.
Let's not forget the issue of pride (vainglory) as the issue Paul was fighting against in his letters, and that led him to speak about the roles of the law and faith.

The problem resulting from thinking that we can work our salvation is that it is associated with a silly pride, vainglory, boastfulness, that make us think we are superior to our brothers. If we believe we are closer to God, or spiritually superior, and that such closeness or superiority is our achievement, we will feel justified to despise other men.

As long as we give God all the glory of the good things that happen to us, it is healthy to recognize our personal contribution.

Please reflect on the following question... we may get an insight of the meaning of personal effort and God's grace.
If your daughter studies hard at college and graduates with a Cum Laude, is it a good thing (for her, and for you as father or mother) to feel proud? What expressions of pride (and humbleness) would you consider spiritually healthy, and which ones you would not?

View attachment 898

Don't know why you want to put us down. I'm a teacher, with that office, and know the meaning of I die daily not only from the context but from my Teacher. And my Teacher does not contradict His Own Word.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Don't know why you want to put us down. I'm a teacher, with that office, and know the meaning of I die daily not only from the context but from my Teacher. And my Teacher does not contradict His Own Word.

I didn't understand your post, my sister.
If I have made you feel uncomfortable I apologize in advance.

I meant that you are right in your approach, and that @Bob Carabbio is also right.
That's why I put the example of the pride we can feel for an achievement like graduating from College with Cum Laude.

 

[Studyman]

Hi, @Bob Carabbio and @charismaticlady

Please allow me to share my thoughts with you and our readers.
You both are right.
Let's not forget the issue of pride (vainglory) as the issue Paul was fighting against in his letters, and that led him to speak about the roles of the law and faith.

The problem resulting from thinking that we can work our salvation is that it is associated with a silly pride, vainglory, boastfulness, that make us think we are superior to our brothers. If we believe we are closer to God, or spiritually superior, and that such closeness or superiority is our achievement, we will feel justified to despise other men.

As long as we give God all the glory of the good things that happen to us, it is healthy to recognize our personal contribution.

Please reflect on the following question... we may get an insight of the meaning of personal effort and God's grace.
If your daughter studies hard at college and graduates with a Cum Laude, is it a good thing (for her, and for you as father or mother) to feel proud? What expressions of pride (and humbleness) would you consider spiritually healthy, and which ones you would not?

View attachment 898

You make a good point about pride. Like so many emotions given to us by God, it can be expressed for good and for evil. Even God was proud of men like Abraham and David, and most certainly His Own Son. And there is evidence of vain glory in the example of those Christians in Matt. 7:22.

But if I may, I would like to share my thoughts with you on the subject of this thread and the foundation thereof.

"Works based salvation" is founded on the belief that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God. Based in large part by the following words of Paul.

Rom. 9: 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


In the sermons I have heard from this world's religions, the preachers therein promote the idea that Israel was trying to please God, or "Earn Favor" by obeying His Laws, and God didn't like that. But when a person listens to the Jesus "of the Bible", HE said in "EVERY" Word HE used to define the Pharisees, that they were children of disobedience. That they full well rejected God's commandments in order to live by their own traditions, and even went so far as to call them "Children of the devil". This is repeated over and over throughout the entire Bible. So it seemed that, according to this world's religions, that Paul was teaching against what Jesus had taught, and the Prophets taught concerning the Jews and why Jesus said they would be "Thrust out" of the Kingdom, but Abraham and Abraham's children would enter.

So I looked into this teaching, so as to understand what Paul was teaching here.

And after some time years ago, I came to Isaiah 1 in which the Spirit of Christ in Isaiah was describing Israel. I'll try and keep it short, but would like to share what I found.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the donkey his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

So this aligns perfectly with the Jesus "of the bibles" description of the religious sect of the Pharisees. But using popular interpretation of Paul's words above, again, it can be seen as contradictory to Paul's teaching.

Then Isaiah said:

Is. 1: 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: "I am full of the burnt offerings of rams", and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

So these Sacrifices were required "Works of the Law" for remission of sins (Before the Messiah came). In other words, Israel rejected God's Laws, Judgments and Statutes, or as it is written in Ez. 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted.

Yet every week that would come to the temple and offer the blood of an innocent being, as per the Law, to justify them of their sins.

In other words, they lived in iniquity as children of disobedience yet offered these sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of their sins.

Paul participated in this same religion before his conversion. And he understood perfectly, as did Jesus, the problem with Israel. And it wasn't that Israel was trying to "Earn Salvation" by following God's Law to the Letter at all, as "many" who come in Christ's Name promote in this world's religions today.

They believed they could live in rejection to God's Laws, and yet come to a shrine of worship every week and offer the Blood of a righteous, innocent being, as per the law, to justify their rebellion against God.

But what God actually wanted, was not the murder or slaughter of innocent beings, HE wanted these men to repent and "put on the New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, as Isaiah also promoted.

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

If a person understands this, Paul's letters take on a different meaning and aligns with the Words of the Lord's Christ concerning the Pharisees religion perfectly. It also exposes the entire foundation of the topic "Works based Salvation" as it is promoted by this world's religions.

As it is also written in 1 John 3:

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Thank you for allowing me to share with you.

 

[Richard]

Does salvation by faith contradict salvation by grace? Does salvation by faith imply, in some subtle way, salvation by works. Scripture itself provides a clear answer: “By faith” is not “by works” but is “by grace.”

20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.
26 It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.
28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.]
Romans 3:20–28

 

[Theophilus]

Does salvation by faith contradict salvation by grace? Does salvation by faith imply, in some subtle way, salvation by works. Scripture itself provides a clear answer: “By faith” is not “by works” but is “by grace.”

20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.
26 It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.
28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.]
Romans 3:20–28

In all of Romans: faith, not works, is the condition for standing righteous before God.

What does it mean that salvation is by grace through faith? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that salvation is by grace through faith? How is salvation by grace through faith different from salvation by works?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In all of Romans: faith, not works, is the condition for standing righteous before God.

What does it mean that salvation is by grace through faith? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that salvation is by grace through faith? How is salvation by grace through faith different from salvation by works?

www.gotquestions.org

It is correct, without forgetting that genuine faith imply works. Works that are performed not to "earn" something, but as a result of love. Such love is generated by God's love.

Paul is not fighting benevolence, for example. He is not fighting feeding the hungry and giving honor to your parents.
What he is fighting is whatever we do that make us think we are better than our fellowmen before the eyes of God because of those works.

 

[civic]

It is correct, without forgetting that genuine faith imply works. Works that are performed not to "earn" something, but as a result of love. Such love is generated by God's love.

Paul is not fighting benevolence, for example. He is not fighting feeding the hungry and giving honor to your parents.
What he is fighting is whatever we do that make us think we are better than our fellowmen before the eyes of God because of those works.

Real faith produces the fruit of the spirit and the good works God designed for believers as per Ephesians 2:10 that we should walk in them. . This is the result of one’s salvation not the means to one’s salvation. Many conflate the two unfortunately.

hope this helps !!!

 

[charismaticlady]

Does salvation by faith contradict salvation by grace? Does salvation by faith imply, in some subtle way, salvation by works. Scripture itself provides a clear answer: “By faith” is not “by works” but is “by grace.”

To get on the right path we must see that according to Hebrews 12:2 we can not take credit for our salvation, except to believe and trust that Jesus will DO what HE (not us) said He would do. Jesus is the author/originator and finisher/perfecter of our faith. The most dramatic the conversion the easier it is to understand. I can vouch for my statement. I was in love with my sin and though I knew it was wrong having been raised in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination and having memorized the Ten Commandments word for word, I couldn't give up my married lover. I was committing adultery big time and couldn't stop. So I started going back to church at a Pentecostal church.

Church leaders say repentance is turning away from sin. So that is what I tried. I broke up with him, but was back in his arms three days later. Month after month I tried but after 6 tries I realized something. There was no power in me to succeed, so I told God "I give up. If you want this sin to be broken then You are going to have to do it. Lay it on him to break up with me, and then give him the strength to stay away from me!" One week later I get a knock at my door and it was him. He had suddenly realized that he couldn't be here if I needed him and he was stealing my chance for a life long relationship.

That was the start of Jesus being the author and finisher of my faith. Jesus saved me after I gave up being at the helm of my life. Two weeks later at church that Wednesday night I saw a vision and heard His voice for the first time and was cleansed of all desire to sin, including adultery. I literally felt a weight lift up and out of me. I felt light as a feather. The grace given to us is the power of the Holy Spirit preventing us from sinning lawlessly. And now at 77 years old I sense Jesus still perfecting and purifying me and maturing the last of the fruits of the Spirit.

So when you hear pastors teach that we will "always sin" and that we will "never be perfect" you can know that they should speak for themselves. Jesus will do it once you give up trying to be righteous on your own. True righteousness now is not just imputed as those pastors teach, but real. 1 John 3:7-9.