"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

They are already forgiven, everyone Christ died for is born forgiven, He took away their sins 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Again He purged theirs sins and sat down Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Everyone He shed His Blood for has remission of sins or forgiveness of sins Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
They were partakers of the Covenant Acts 3:25

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Of course you dont understand these things

Ahh, but I do understand these things. I understand that your doctrine does not accept what Scripture says, because you take a couple of pet verses and twist them to fit what you want.
Christ Jesus died for every soul that has ever been. He did not die just for the "elect".
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
God predestined (made elect) those He knew beforehand (because of His omniscience) to become His children conformed to the image of His Son. He knows who will choose Him, but His choosing us was based on our choosing Him.

 

[brightfame52]

On this one I'm going with Christ's Death on the cross removed the sin barrier that separated us from God. What I'm saying is that he removed all of our sin, past, present and future. That saving grace is only applied to us after we accept Jesus as lord. After We believe in him and what he did on the cross to save us.

Mainstream Christianity almost exclusively speaks of salvation as a present reality in the life of a Christian. It is viewed as the state of believers at the moment they accept Jesus Christ as Savior.

False, the death of Christ removed sin and provided forgiveness. Every one He died for, the Elect, have forgiveness of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

Ahh, but I do understand these things. I understand that your doctrine does not accept what Scripture says, because you take a couple of pet verses and twist them to fit what you want.
Christ Jesus died for every soul that has ever been. He did not die just for the "elect".
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
God predestined (made elect) those He knew beforehand (because of His omniscience) to become His children conformed to the image of His Son. He knows who will choose Him, but His choosing us was based on our choosing Him.

No you dont understand them, you condition Salvation on works, keeping requirements.

 

[Doug Brents]

No you dont understand them, you condition Salvation on works, keeping requirements.

You completely misunderstand me as you misunderstand Scripture. I do not "condition salvation on works". Salvation is 100% Jesus' work. But to receive His gift of transferring His Righteousness to us requires that we obey Him in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God, and faith requires action for it to be complete, alive, effective, and pleasing to God.

 

[brightfame52]

You completely misunderstand me as you misunderstand Scripture. I do not "condition salvation on works". Salvation is 100% Jesus' work. But to receive His gift of transferring His Righteousness to us requires that we obey Him in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God, and faith requires action for it to be complete, alive, effective, and pleasing to God.

Those for whom Christ died, have legally the forgiveness of sins, they just dont know it until they are regenerated and given Faith in Christ. They did nothing to be forgiven of their sins, its for Christs sake they are forgiven, not anything else Eph 4:32

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Those for whom Christ died, have legally the forgiveness of sins, they just dont know it until they are regenerated

Regeneration is the same thing as receiving forgiveness of sins. You cannot have one without the other.

and given Faith in Christ.

Faith comes from God in that we hear the Gospel, but it also comes from man in that we must respond appropriately to the Gospel. It is our response that is what makes us pleasing to God.

They did nothing to be forgiven of their sins, its for Christs sake they are forgiven, not anything else Eph 4:32

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Indeed He has forgiven those who obey Him, but only those who obey Him. Again, you take a single verse that says what you want it to say, but ignore the many other passages that tell us that we receive forgiveness when we obey Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Regeneration is the same thing as receiving forgiveness of sins. You cannot have one without the other.

Faith comes from God in that we hear the Gospel, but it also comes from man in that we must respond appropriately to the Gospel. It is our response that is what makes us pleasing to God.

Indeed He has forgiven those who obey Him, but only those who obey Him. Again, you take a single verse that says what you want it to say, but ignore the many other passages that tell us that we receive forgiveness when we obey Christ.

Regeneration is Spiritual Life imparted. Forgiveness' of sins is legal, it comes from what Christ has done by His Death. Those whom sins have been taken away, will have life Spiritual imparted, then they will believe the testimony of the Gospel by the Spirit

 

[civic]

It doesnt have to be, thats still what it means, when He sat down at the right hand of God, our sins were purged. Also those in Acts 3:19 are already forgiven and already regenerated, Jesus turned them from their sins Acts 3:26

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 3:19 is their conversion experience, they are passive and being converted

And lastly, they are specifically Gods elect, children of the Promise Acts 3:25

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto
Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

This is also limited effectual atonement

faith without works is dead so how does that line up with your systematic ?

faith is action and results in obedience to His commands.

 

[civic]

Regeneration is Spiritual Life imparted. Forgiveness' of sins is legal, it comes from what Christ has done by His Death. Those whom sins have been taken away, will have life Spiritual imparted, then they will believe the testimony of the Gospel by the Spirit

where does Jesus say forgiveness of sins is legal ?

Afterall He is the one who forgives sins and made atonement for sins as the Savior of the world.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Regeneration is Spiritual Life imparted. Forgiveness' of sins is legal, it comes from what Christ has done by His Death. Those whom sins have been taken away, will have life Spiritual imparted, then they will believe the testimony of the Gospel by the Spirit

You make distinctions that are not in Scripture. Regeneration occurs when sins are forgiven. You cannot have one without the other. When sin is forgiven a person is made new, regenerated, and cleansed. All of that occurs at the same time, in the same instant. Yes, it comes from what Christ did by His death, but sin is not removed first and then spiritual life imparted some time later, and then even later they believe. Belief comes first, then forgiveness and regeneration occur in baptism.

 

[brightfame52]

You make distinctions that are not in Scripture. Regeneration occurs when sins are forgiven. You cannot have one without the other. When sin is forgiven a person is made new, regenerated, and cleansed. All of that occurs at the same time, in the same instant. Yes, it comes from what Christ did by His death, but sin is not removed first and then spiritual life imparted some time later, and then even later they believe. Belief comes first, then forgiveness and regeneration occur in baptism.

Its in scripture but it appears to be veiled to you friend, I cant help you with that.

 

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

When sin is forgiven a person is made new, regenerated,

Thats why every sinner Christ died for shall be regenerated sometime in their life, because their sins were taken away at the Cross. They were forgiven at the Cross, that's why Jesus rose from the dead in vindication of that fact. Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification
Justification here is the word δικαίωσις:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. abjuring to be righteous, justification

aquittal (for Christ's sake):

To say there not acquitted, forgiven is to not believe the testification of the Resurrection of Christ, which is a Gospel Truth as well

And the acquitted receives their regeneration from the Resurrection of Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Doug Brents]

Its in scripture but it appears to be veiled to you friend, I cant help you with that.

If you use properly understood Scripture (with none of your calvinist propaganda) to explain it so that it agrees with ALL Scripture, then I will understand and accept it. But if what you explain does not agree with ALL Scripture, then even if you quote Scripture that says what you think it does, I will reject your conclusions. Just as Satan quoted Scripture (taken out of context and not in agreement with the rest of Scripture) to tempt Jesus, but Jesus knew the truth and it set Him free from Satan's temptations. So too, I know the truth, and it sets me free from your false doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

If you use properly understood Scripture (with none of your calvinist propaganda) to explain it so that it agrees with ALL Scripture, then I will understand and accept it. But if what you explain does not agree with ALL Scripture, then even if you quote Scripture that says what you think it does, I will reject your conclusions. Just as Satan quoted Scripture (taken out of context and not in agreement with the rest of Scripture) to tempt Jesus, but Jesus knew the truth and it set Him free from Satan's temptations. So too, I know the truth, and it sets me free from your false doctrine.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/works-salvation.970/page-61#post-66505

 

[Doug Brents]

Thats why every sinner Christ died for shall be regenerated sometime in their life, because their sins were taken away at the Cross. They were forgiven at the Cross, that's why Jesus rose from the dead in vindication of that fact. Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification
Justification here is the word δικαίωσις:

Not "because of". For here means "in order to secure". Jesus did not die because we are justified, but in order to make us justified.

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. abjuring to be righteous, justification

aquittal (for Christ's sake):

To say there not acquitted, forgiven is to not believe the testification of the Resurrection of Christ, which is a Gospel Truth as well

And the acquitted receives their regeneration from the Resurrection of Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I did not say that man is not justified by Jesus' death and resurrection. I said we are justified by His death and resurrection ONLY WHEN we obey the Gospel (as Scripture says). We are not justified first, then hear the Gospel, and realize that we were already justified. That is calvinist nonsense. We hear the Gospel, obey the Gospel, and are justified in the obedience.

 

[brightfame52]

Not "because of". For here means "in order to secure". Jesus did not die because we are justified, but in order to make us justified.

I did not say that man is not justified by Jesus' death and resurrection. I said we are justified by His death and resurrection ONLY WHEN we obey the Gospel (as Scripture says). We are not justified first, then hear the Gospel, and realize that we were already justified. That is calvinist nonsense. We hear the Gospel, obey the Gospel, and are justified in the obedience.

Yes because of, the same prep is used in the same verse, He was delivered for[because of ] our offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
who was betrayed and crucified because of our sins, and was raised [from the dead] because of our justification [our acquittal—absolving us of all sin before God].AMP

Thats the testimony of the resurrection, why deny it ?

 

[brightfame52]

If we are not justified by works, then if believing be a work, then we are not justified by believing; but we are not justified by works; and that believing is a work, appears:

1. Because we are commanded to believe, as to love one another, as he gave us commandment. “And this is his commandment, that we should

believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” {I Jn.3:23} If we are commanded to do it, it’s a work.

2. To obey a command is a work, but to believe is to obey a command; faith is an obeying of the will of God, therefore a work;

http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/richardson-justification-by-christ-alone.pdf

Believing the Gospel and Obeying the Gospel are One Rom 10:16

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes because of, the same prep is used in the same verse, He was delivered for[because of ] our offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
who was betrayed and crucified because of our sins, and was raised [from the dead] because of our justification [our acquittal—absolving us of all sin before God].AMP

Thats the testimony of the resurrection, why deny it ?

The use of a preposition in one form in one place does not make that same preposition have the same meaning in another place, even in the same sentence.

Jesus did indeed die because of our offenses. But He was raised in order to secure our justification.
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain." 1 Cor 15:14
"and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1 Cor 15:17
Notice that it is Christ's resurrection that is the sign that we no longer have sin. He was not raised because of our justification, but to attain our justification.

 

[brightfame52]

The use of a preposition in one form in one place does not make that same preposition have the same meaning in another place, even in the same sentence.

Jesus did indeed die because of our offenses. But He was raised in order to secure our justification.
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain." 1 Cor 15:14
"and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1 Cor 15:17
Notice that it is Christ's resurrection that is the sign that we no longer have sin. He was not raised because of our justification, but to attain our justification.

You still dont get it, even when shown the word of Truth

 

[Doug Brents]

You still dont get it, even when shown the word of Truth

I do get it, my friend. I completely understand your false doctrine, and reject it as such. It does not agree with Scripture's truth.