"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Again Colosse was a gentile church and all men are under the moral law Rom 2.In Col 1:27

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A completely unimportant and inconsequential distinction. It was the Law that was nailed to the cross In Col 2:14, and we are freed not only from it, but also from sin under the New Covenant by Jesus' blood through our obedience to Jesus' commands that He says lead to receiving His forgiveness.

 

[Theophilus]

The issue I am raising is this; is obedience to God's will a work of merit, that is, does one earn salvation by obedience to God?

That's a good question and after 58 pages of posts it's obvious our emotions run wild with it. I'm wondering if it's a hard question to answer or are there just a lot of different opinions. I think for a lot of us we start with the book of James.

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead....You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:17,24

What exactly does that mean, What are the works that we need to do to be justified? Is it obedience to God's commandments the work that is necessary for our salvation?

Not according to John where no connection between salvation and obedience is made.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

But then you have:

And having been made perfect, He (Jesus) became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,... Hebrews 5:9

How do we obey Jesus to receive Eternal life?

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved...
Romans 10:9

Is that the obedience in the work that we must do? What about this one?

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

My opinion is that we can only be obedient to God after our salvation. And that are salvation is a gift of God and there's nothing that we can do to earn it. As the scriptures say our righteousness is like filthy rags.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's death made it a possibility, but not a fact. An individual's sins are not forgiven until he believes the Gospel (having heard it) and he takes action to obey the Gospel in faith. If he never hears the Gospel, or does not accept it, or does not obey it, then he does not receive the forgiveness of sins offered by Jesus' death.

Oh no, Christs blotting out the sins of them he died for was more than a possibility, He actully did it Col 2:13-15

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Blotting out means wiped away, and its aorist tense, a completed finished work, that's why in Vs 13 it reads having forgiven you all trespasses, also in aorist past tense

 

[simpleton]

Oh no, Christs blotting out the sins of them he died for was more than a possibility, He actully did it Col 2:13-15

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Blotting out means wiped away, and its aorist tense, a completed finished work, that's why in Vs 13 it reads having forgiven you all trespasses, also in aorist past tense

There is nothing there about present and future sins just your past sins.

 

[brightfame52]

A completely unimportant and inconsequential distinction. It was the Law that was nailed to the cross In Col 2:14, and we are freed not only from it, but also from sin under the New Covenant by Jesus' blood through our obedience to Jesus' commands that He says lead to receiving His forgiveness.

Its very important, the Majority of the Colossians were Gentiles, who had sinned against Gods Law, Moral Law,

Rom 2:12-15

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

The Moral Law is written on the natural mans heart, thats why he knows stealing is wrong, killing is wrong

The Law in Vs 15 in the original has the definite article so Paul is speaking about the Moral Law given to Moses, the Ten Commandments.

All men whether jew or gentile naturally under the law of God, i m surprised you didnt know that. Rom 3:19

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world[Jew/Gentile] may become guilty before God.

 

[brightfame52]

There is nothing there about present and future sins just your past sins.

Maybe not to you, i cant help what you dont see, thats between you and God

 

[simpleton]

Maybe not to you, i cant help what you dont see, thats between you and God

It said your past sins are not held against you.

 

[brightfame52]

There is nothing there about present and future sins just your past sins.

Also look at Vs 13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh no, Christs blotting out the sins of them he died for was more than a possibility, He actully did it Col 2:13-15

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Blotting out means wiped away, and its aorist tense, a completed finished work, that's why in Vs 13 it reads having forgiven you all trespasses, also in aorist past tense

When the people to whom Paul is speaking were dead in their trespasses, Christ died, and when they accepted Him their sins were wiped out. To the people in the Church, their sins have indeed already been wiped out. But to those who have not yet accepted Christ, their sins are not yet wiped out.

 

[simpleton]

That's a good question and after 58 pages of posts it's obvious our emotions run wild with it. I'm wondering if it's a hard question to answer or are there just a lot of different opinions. I think for a lot of us we start with the book of James.

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead....You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:17,24

What exactly does that mean, What are the works that we need to do to be justified? Is it obedience to God's commandments the work that is necessary for our salvation?

Not according to John where no connection between salvation and obedience is made.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

But then you have:

And having been made perfect, He (Jesus) became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,... Hebrews 5:9

How do we obey Jesus to receive Eternal life?

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved...
Romans 10:9

Is that the obedience in the work that we must do? What about this one?

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

My opinion is that we can only be obedient to God after our salvation. And that are salvation is a gift of God and there's nothing that we can do to earn it. As the scriptures say our righteousness is like filthy rags.

I obeyed my parents and respected them as a lost person.

 

[Doug Brents]

Its very important, the Majority of the Colossians were Gentiles, who had sinned against Gods Law, Moral Law,

Every Jew who has ever lived has also sinned against God's moral Law. That makes this point irrelevant.

Rom 2:12-15

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

The Moral Law is written on the natural mans heart, thats why he knows stealing is wrong, killing is wrong

The Law in Vs 15 in the original has the definite article so Paul is speaking about the Moral Law given to Moses, the Ten Commandments.

All men whether jew or gentile naturally under the law of God, i m surprised you didnt know that. Rom 3:19

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world[Jew/Gentile] may become guilty before God.

And it is the moral law of the Old Covenant that was nailed to the cross. It is the moral law on our hearts under which we are bound today, and Jesus' sacrifice frees us from the penalty of breaking that as well, when we accept Him and surrender our will to Him.

 

[Theophilus]

I obeyed my parents and respected them as a lost person.

I'm glad to hear it, as that is awesome. Highly commendable. Were they church going? When did you get saved?

 

[brightfame52]

When the people to whom Paul is speaking were dead in their trespasses, Christ died, and when they accepted Him their sins were wiped out. To the people in the Church, their sins have indeed already been wiped out. But to those who have not yet accepted Christ, their sins are not yet wiped out.

They couldn't do anything dead in sin, they had to be quickened first, and they were quickened with life because their sins were blotted out, death was abolished for them

 

[brightfame52]

Every Jew who has ever lived has also sinned against God's moral Law. That makes this point irrelevant.

And it is the moral law of the Old Covenant that was nailed to the cross. It is the moral law on our hearts under which we are bound today, and Jesus' sacrifice frees us from the penalty of breaking that as well, when we accept Him and surrender our will to Him.

Again the Colossi Church was mostly Gentiles, and by nature they had violated the Law of God, as did jews, yet since Christ died for these elect Gentiles, His Death put away their sins, blotted them out. Isa 44:22

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

The Colosses had been redeemed Col 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

 

[Doug Brents]

They couldn't do anything dead in sin, they had to be quickened first, and they were quickened with life because their sins were blotted out, death was abolished for them

Spiritual death is not the same as physical death. A spiritually dead person can still act and respond to the Gospel, but they cannot make themselves alive again without God's causing them to be alive (which is what He does through Christ). They are still able to communicate, interact, and respond to stimuli (see the Rich Man in Jesus' parable). The Lost most certainly can respond to Jesus' Gospel, because as He said, when He was lifted up He drew all men to Himself. He has given every person the ability to respond to His Gospel because His sacrifice drew all men to Himself.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again the Colossi Church was mostly Gentiles, and by nature they had violated the Law of God, as did jews, yet since Christ died for these elect Gentiles, His Death put away their sins, blotted them out. Isa 44:22

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

The Colosses had been redeemed Col 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

His death blotted out their sins when they responded to the Gospel, not before they were born.

 

[brightfame52]

Spiritual death is not the same as physical death. A spiritually dead person can still act and respond to the Gospel, but they cannot make themselves alive again without God's causing them to be alive (which is what He does through Christ). They are still able to communicate, interact, and respond to stimuli (see the Rich Man in Jesus' parable). The Lost most certainly can respond to Jesus' Gospel, because as He said, when He was lifted up He drew all men to Himself. He has given every person the ability to respond to His Gospel because His sacrifice drew all men to Himself.

We not talking about physical death. By nature man is spiritually dead in sin, not physically ? Duh

 

[brightfame52]

His death blotted out their sins when they responded to the Gospel, not before they were born.

Yes His Death blotted out their sins, nothing else.

 

[Doug Brents]

We not talking about physical death. By nature man is spiritually dead in sin, not physically ? Duh

Exactly, but spiritual death is not like physical death.
In physical death, the body cannot perform any actions. But in spiritual death, the soul can still function, make decisions, communicate, and take actions like choosing to accept Jesus as Lord that leads to salvation. This is depicted in many places in Scripture.

Yes His Death blotted out their sins, nothing else.

Oh, His death did much more than blot out their sins, but that is not what we are discussing.

His death blots out each person's sins when they obey the Gospel. His death did not remove their sins when He died, nor before they were born. Paul was still in sin when Ananias came to him. The eunuch was still in sin when Philip preached to him.

 

[Theophilus]

Exactly, but spiritual death is not like physical death.
In physical death, the body cannot perform any actions. But in spiritual death, the soul can still function, make decisions, communicate, and take actions like choosing to accept Jesus as Lord that leads to salvation. This is depicted in many places in Scripture.

Oh, His death did much more than blot out their sins, but that is not what we are discussing.

His death blots out each person's sins when they obey the Gospel. His death did not remove their sins when He died, nor before they were born. Paul was still in sin when Ananias came to him. The eunuch was still in sin when Philip preached to him.

Seriously the only action I can think of a dead body being able to do is to decompose. A new glorified body in eternity with Jesus sounds better to me.