"Works Salvation"

[Complete]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28)

Praise God!

 

[Doug Brents]

So "unto" salvation according to you means toward salvation but not saved yet? Your 4 step plan of salvation seems to be the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Conflating faith and works which results in salvation by faith AND works remains your Achilles heel.

un·to
/ˈəntə,ˈənto͝o/
preposition
preposition: unto

1. archaic term for to.
   "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
2. archaic term for until.
   "marriage was forever—unto death"

Yes, "unto" denotes "toward", or "until". Act toward others as you want them to act toward you.

And it is not MY 4 step plan of salvation. Everything I believe comes directly from Scripture. God is the one who inspired the writers to tell us that confession of Jesus leads to receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and that repentance leads to forgiveness (Acts 3:19), and that baptism is the point at which we receive forgiveness and union with Christ Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). This is not adding works to faith. This is trusting and accepting God's Word that He has a way for us to receive His blessing, and obediently surrendering our will to His in accepting His gift as He said He would give it.

 

[mailmandan]

un·to
/ˈəntə,ˈənto͝o/
preposition
preposition: unto

1. archaic term for to.
   "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
2. archaic term for until.
   "marriage was forever—unto death"

Yes, "unto" denotes "toward", or "until". Act toward others as you want them to act toward you.

And it is not MY 4 step plan of salvation. Everything I believe comes directly from Scripture. God is the one who inspired the writers to tell us that confession of Jesus leads to receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and that repentance leads to forgiveness (Acts 3:19), and that baptism is the point at which we receive forgiveness and union with Christ Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). This is not adding works to faith. This is trusting and accepting God's Word that He has a way for us to receive His blessing, and obediently surrendering our will to His in accepting His gift as He said He would give it.

You quote scripture accompanied by your eisegesis. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you teach salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. So, in Romans 10:9,10 according to you, "believes unto righteousness" (means toward righteousness, but not righteous yet) and "confession is made unto salvation" (means confession is made toward salvation, but not saved yet).

I can see that your church of Christ indoctrination runs deep.

 

[mailmandan]

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28)

Praise God!

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

 

[mailmandan]

Scripture disagrees with your opinion.
James says that the actions that Abraham took made his faith perfect, and so he was justified by what he DID! (James 2:22-23)
And, as synergy said, James 2:24 says directly that we are justified by what we do, and not by faith alone.
And there are many passages, that have been mentioned before, that directly link something man does as a condition to receiving salvation. It is these passages that correct your understanding of Eph 2:8-9.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Do you believe that "justified" in James 2:24 means "accounted as righteous" or "shown to be righteous?"

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
James says that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (an empty profession of) faith/dead faith that (remains alone) barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

 

[Doug Brents]

You quote scripture accompanied by your eisegesis. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you teach salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. So, in Romans 10:9,10 according to you, "believes unto righteousness" (means toward righteousness, but not righteous yet) and "confession is made unto salvation" (means confession is made toward salvation, but not saved yet).

I can see that your church of Christ indoctrination runs deep.

No, not Church of Christ indoctrination. I have studied the topic of salvation for myself for over 10 years now. I have read thousands of articles written by people like yourself who believe in "faith only" salvation. But I find Biblical error in every one of them. None of them account for the many passages that state we are saved through baptism in water. None of them account for the fact that confession of Jesus as Lord (a physical act) leads to salvation, it does not just follow after salvation.

No, this is not faith plus works. It is simply faith, because without action faith doesn't really exist. Faith without action is dead, which means it is meaningless, incomplete, dead, worthless, and incapable of bringing God's salvation to anyone.

 

[Doug Brents]

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Do you believe that "justified" in James 2:24 means "accounted as righteous" or "shown to be righteous?"

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
James says that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (an empty profession of) faith/dead faith that (remains alone) barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

No one, except for Jesus our Christ, is or was ever righteous of their own merit. Everyone who has ever been justified has been declared to be righteous by God. They did not earn it, because it is impossible for one to do enough good works to overcome the debt of even one tiny sin. Once the Law of God has been broken, there is no coming back to righteousness on one's own. So yes, justified in James 2:24 means, "to be accounted as righteous".

James is not discussing the evidence of righteousness. He is discussing the evidence that faith is real, and that real faith must be present before one is declared righteous by God (justified). Faith does not show up after salvation is received. And we do not say we have faith, then receive salvation, and then prove that the faith was real afterwards. No, faith must be real, and proven so with action, before salvation is received. And as Jesus says in Luke 17:7-10, these actions do not merit even a "thank you" from the Master. They are His due, and the duty of those who seek to be known as His.

 

[mailmandan]

Most religions throughout history have taught that salvation is by good works. But the truth of the matter is salvation by grace through faith is at the heart of the Christian religion.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8–9

The statement has three parts— salvation, grace, and faith—and they are equally important. The three together constitute a basic tenet of Christianity.

So how and why do so many people get this wrong?

Because salvation by works appeals to man’s sinful nature, it forms the basis of almost every religion except for biblical Christianity. Proverbs 14:12 tells us that “there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”

Salvation by works seems right to men, which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint. That is exactly why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it is the only religion that teaches salvation is a gift of God and not of works. Got?

Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Its just hard for many people to ACCEPT. Its a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[mailmandan]

No, not Church of Christ indoctrination.

I had temporarily attended the church of Christ several years ago and saw firsthand how numerous members of that church became indoctrinated and also became very proud in their belief that only their church was the true church, citing Romans 16:16.

I have studied the topic of salvation for myself for over 10 years now.

So have others yet not everyone comes to the same conclusion about exactly how one is saved. Sadly, most teach salvation by faith + works.

I have read thousands of articles written by people like yourself who believe in "faith only" salvation.

I've read thousands of articles over the years by people like yourself, along with other works-salvationists who confuse "faith only" per James (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works James 2:14-24) with salvation by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

But I find Biblical error in every one of them.

I find Biblical error in works salvation. (Romans 11:6)

None of them account for the many passages that state we are saved through baptism in water.

The Bible makes it clear that men are saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47) This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ. (Acts 10:43)

Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself. (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4) There are a handful of 'alleged' prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

None of them account for the fact that confession of Jesus as Lord (a physical act) leads to salvation, it does not just follow after salvation.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Yet according to you, this only leads to salvation and the believer is not saved yet until after water baptism. You just don't get it.

No, this is not faith plus works. It is simply faith, because without action faith doesn't really exist. Faith without action is dead, which means it is meaningless, incomplete, dead, worthless, and incapable of bringing God's salvation to anyone.

So, you basically take BOTH faith AND works, wrap them up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. So do Roman Catholics. Faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[mailmandan]

No one, except for Jesus our Christ, is or was ever righteous of their own merit. Everyone who has ever been justified has been declared to be righteous by God. They did not earn it, because it is impossible for one to do enough good works to overcome the debt of even one tiny sin. Once the Law of God has been broken, there is no coming back to righteousness on one's own. So yes, justified in James 2:24 means, "to be accounted as righteous".

You just contradicted yourself and in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Roman Catholics basically teach this same critical error that you teach which results in works-righteousness.

James is not discussing the evidence of righteousness. He is discussing the evidence that faith is real, and that real faith must be present before one is declared righteous by God (justified).

James is discussing the evidence of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! We are saved by faith at its origin and not at some time later, after we accomplish a check list of works.

Faith does not show up after salvation is received. And we do not say we have faith, then receive salvation, and then prove that the faith was real afterwards. No, faith must be real, and proven so with action, before salvation is received.

False. You clearly teach salvation by faith + works yet salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

And as Jesus says in Luke 17:7-10, these actions do not merit even a "thank you" from the Master. They are His due, and the duty of those who seek to be known as His.

Being unprofitable servants, doing what is our duty to do, doesn't mean we are saved by works, yet folks in the church of Christ commonly cite Luke 17:10 in their efforts to try and prove otherwise. Further proof of your indoctrination. Expectation of special treatment or salvation by works is unbecoming for a servant of God.

 

[Doug Brents]

I had temporarily attended the church of Christ several years ago and saw firsthand how numerous members of that church became indoctrinated and also became very proud in their belief that only their church was the true church, citing Romans 16:16.

I am not sure how one gets that the "Churches of Christ" is the only true Church from Rom 16:16. There are many names for the Church found in the NT, and among them are "Church of God", "Church of Christ", "Body of Christ", "the Way", and several others. While I don't believe that the Churches of Christ are the only true Church, I do recognize that there are very few other churches that teach the truth of the necessity of baptism for salvation.

So have others yet not everyone comes to the same conclusion about exactly how one is saved. Sadly, most teach salvation by faith + works.

There is absolutely no such thing as a "works free" salvation. Rom 10:9-10 shows absolute proof that there is no such thing, since it mandates a physical act that leads to receiving salvation. As has been demonstrated through Scripture for you before, faith without action is not faith, and that active faith must come before salvation is received.

I've read thousands of articles over the years by people like yourself, along with other works-salvationists who confuse "faith only" per James (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works James 2:14-24) with salvation by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

You have yourself so enamored of this label you like to give to "works-salvationists" that you cannot see what Scripture is telling you.
Honestly look at Rom 10:9-10. Do you not see that the physical act of confession of Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" results in (and so must come before) salvation is received? This means that there is, by God's own direction, an action that must be done in order to receive salvation, which means that faith and actions go hand in hand.

I find Biblical error in works salvation. (Romans 11:6)

If by "works salvation" you mean trying to earn salvation by doing good works, then you are correct, and we are in agreement. But if you mean that there is absolutely no physical action that man must take to receive salvation, then you contradict Scripture. Doing the actions that God says lead to receiving His gift of salvation does not "earn" salvation, any more than borrowing as many jars as she could find "earned" the oil that poured out for the widow in 2 Kings 4.

The Bible makes it clear that men are saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47) This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ. (Acts 10:43)

As has been pointed out in other threads, the Gentiles in Acts 10 were not saved by the Holy Spirit coming on them in power (tongues and praise). If they had been, then they would not have needed water baptism. Jesus' last command before He ascended was that the disciples go, make additional disciples, baptize them, and teach them everything He taught them (Matt 28:19), but we see in Mark 16:16 (Mark's telling of the same event) that Jesus said that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved, making baptism a condition (like confession in Rom 10:9-10) for receiving salvation. This is reiterated in Acts 2:38.

Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself. (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4) There are a handful of 'alleged' prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism, not that it is the first action after we are saved.
Col 2:11-14 says that the Holy Spirit takes action during baptism to remove our sins and unite us with Jesus' death and resurrection.
Rom 6:1-4 agrees and says that we are die to sin, and are united with Jesus' death through baptism.
And there are many more. Baptism is not done after salvation is received; it is the event during which salvation is received.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Yet according to you, this only leads to salvation and the believer is not saved yet until after water baptism. You just don't get it.

Dan, every single verse of Scripture is equally God's Word. So every single verse carries the same strength and weight as every other verse. Rom 10:9-10 does not outweigh 1 Pet 3:21, or Acts 2:38, or Acts 3:19, or any of the other passages that speak of what leads to salvation. All of them must be fulfilled to actually receive salvation, which means that repentance (Acts 3:19), Confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and Baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21) must all be done to actually receive salvation. And baptism is the last that is done since it is the point that salvation is actually received.

So, you basically take BOTH faith AND works, wrap them up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. So do Roman Catholics.

The roman catholics are not a "Christian" faith; they are papist, so they do not qualify as a reference in Christian discussions.

Faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

And if there is no action, then the faith is not real, and that living faith must be present BEFORE salvation is received. We are not saved, and then exhibit a living faith. Faith is the conduit through which salvation is delivered to us (Eph 2:8-9), and if there is no action (repentance, confession, baptism), then there is no faith, which means no salvation is received.

 

[Doug Brents]

You just contradicted yourself and in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Roman Catholics basically teach this same critical error that you teach which results in works-righteousness.

Without evidence of faith there is no real faith, because real faith will exhibit evidence. And that evidence is obedience to the commands of the one whom you claim to be your master. Since He said that confession of Him as Lord leads to receiving His gift of salvation, then confession of Him is a requirement before He gives salvation. Since He said that baptism is the event during which salvation is received, that is the way it is.

James is discussing the evidence of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! We are saved by faith at its origin and not at some time later, after we accomplish a check list of works.

Faith that is genuine will produce repentance, confession, and baptism as commanded by the One whom we claim to be our Lord. If there is none of these actions, then that faith is not genuine, nor is it of any value.

False. You clearly teach salvation by faith + works yet salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

And faith without works is dead and worthless. Faith that does not produce action is not really faith at all.

Being unprofitable servants, doing what is our duty to do, doesn't mean we are saved by works, yet folks in the church of Christ commonly cite Luke 17:10 in their efforts to try and prove otherwise. Further proof of your indoctrination. Expectation of special treatment or salvation by works is unbecoming for a servant of God.

Special treatment? I expect no special treatment. I simply trust my Lord that what He said He will do. He said those who repent will be forgiven. He said those who confess Him will be saved. He said that those who are baptized will be saved and receive His Spirit indwelling our hearts. I trust that He will keep His word as He has kept it in all the stories we have recorded in the OT. And when He says that only those who have been born of water and the Spirit will enter the Kingdom (the Church), I believe Him and trust that those who have not been born of water and the Spirit are not my brothers and sisters in Him yet.

 

[mailmandan]

I am not sure how one gets that the "Churches of Christ" is the only true Church from Rom 16:16. There are many names for the Church found in the NT, and among them are "Church of God", "Church of Christ", "Body of Christ", "the Way", and several others. While I don't believe that the Churches of Christ are the only true Church, I do recognize that there are very few other churches that teach the truth of the necessity of baptism for salvation.

Good point about the "Church of God" (Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32) "Body of Christ," "the Way" etc.. yet more than a few folks who attend the Church of Christ have claimed to be the "true church" based on the name found in Romans 16:16.

There is absolutely no such thing as a "works free" salvation.

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6)

Rom 10:9-10 shows absolute proof that there is no such thing, since it mandates a physical act that leads to receiving salvation.

Expression of faith, not a work for salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

As has been demonstrated through Scripture for you before, faith without action is not faith, and that active faith must come before salvation is received.

Faith in Christ and salvation is established first then action/works follow. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

You have yourself so enamored of this label you like to give to "works-salvationists" that you cannot see what Scripture is telling you.
Honestly look at Rom 10:9-10. Do you not see that the physical act of confession of Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" results in (and so must come before) salvation is received? This means that there is, by God's own direction, an action that must be done in order to receive salvation, which means that faith and actions go hand in hand.

I have already explained Romans 10:8-10 to you numerous times, yet you still insist on turning confession into a work for salvation anyway. Your faith and actions argument culminates in salvation by faith and works.

If by "works salvation" you mean trying to earn salvation by doing good works, then you are correct, and we are in agreement. But if you mean that there is absolutely no physical action that man must take to receive salvation, then you contradict Scripture. Doing the actions that God says lead to receiving His gift of salvation does not "earn" salvation, any more than borrowing as many jars as she could find "earned" the oil that poured out for the widow in 2 Kings 4.

Repentance (change of mind) is not a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord is not a work for salvation and the word of faith is in our mouth and our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8)

As has been pointed out in other threads, the Gentiles in Acts 10 were not saved by the Holy Spirit coming on them in power (tongues and praise). If they had been, then they would not have needed water baptism.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Jesus' last command before He ascended was that the disciples go, make additional disciples, baptize them, and teach them everything He taught them (Matt 28:19),

Nothing there about baptism being absolutely required for salvation.

but we see in Mark 16:16 (Mark's telling of the same event) that Jesus said that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved, making baptism a condition (like confession in Rom 10:9-10) for receiving salvation. This is reiterated in Acts 2:38.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism, not that it is the first action after we are saved.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

Col 2:11-14 says that the Holy Spirit takes action during baptism to remove our sins and unite us with Jesus' death and resurrection.
Rom 6:1-4 agrees and says that we are die to sin, and are united with Jesus' death through baptism.
And there are many more. Baptism is not done after salvation is received; it is the event during which salvation is received.

You confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). I already thoroughly covered Colossians 2:11-14 and Romans 6:1-4 with you in post #378. Go back and read it again.

Dan, every single verse of Scripture is equally God's Word. So every single verse carries the same strength and weight as every other verse. Rom 10:9-10 does not outweigh 1 Pet 3:21, or Acts 2:38, or Acts 3:19, or any of the other passages that speak of what leads to salvation. All of them must be fulfilled to actually receive salvation, which means that repentance (Acts 3:19), Confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and Baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21) must all be done to actually receive salvation. And baptism is the last that is done since it is the point that salvation is actually received.

You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so-called gospel plan. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Stop leaving out verse 8. Water baptism "follows" salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

The Bible makes it clear that men are saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47) This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ. (Acts 10:43)

Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself. (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4) There are a handful of 'alleged' prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

The roman catholics are not a "Christian" faith; they are papist, so they do not qualify as a reference in Christian discussions.

Yet what you teach the same errors about faith and works as Roman Catholics do. Campbellites basically teach that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works and Roman Catholics basically teach we are saved by faith "infused" with works. Both groups try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation by grace through faith, not works.

And if there is no action, then the faith is not real, and that living faith must be present BEFORE salvation is received.

Faith is alive in Christ first and then the action/works follow. You have a dead faith producing works in order to become a living faith. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. Common sense.

We are not saved, and then exhibit a living faith.

Oh yes, we are and yes, we do.

Faith is the conduit through which salvation is delivered to us (Eph 2:8-9), and if there is no action (repentance, confession, baptism), then there is no faith, which means no salvation is received.

Repentance precedes faith. Change of mind - new direction of this change of mind - faith in Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Baptism "follows" salvation. (Acts 10:43-47) Your 4-step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

 

[mailmandan]

Without evidence of faith there is no real faith, because real faith will exhibit evidence. And that evidence is obedience to the commands of the one whom you claim to be your master. Since He said that confession of Him as Lord leads to receiving His gift of salvation, then confession of Him is a requirement before He gives salvation. Since He said that baptism is the event during which salvation is received, that is the way it is.

"Evidence" is the key word here. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8-10) so it's not about must confess but will confess. You turn confession into a work for salvation based on your CoC 4-step plan of salvation. That's the problem. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

Faith that is genuine will produce repentance, confession, and baptism as commanded by the One whom we claim to be our Lord. If there is none of these actions, then that faith is not genuine, nor is it of any value.

Faith that is genuine has already gone through the process of repentance. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ, yet you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith in scripture. Read (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15 and Acts 20:21) and notice the order. This explains why you cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. The thief on the cross placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation while still hanging on the cross but was unable to get water baptized before he died. According to your logic, he did not have faith because baptism was not produced.

And faith without works is dead and worthless. Faith that does not produce action is not really faith at all.

In regard to James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple! Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Special treatment? I expect no special treatment.

Sure, you do. Salvation by works.

I simply trust my Lord that what He said He will do. He said those who repent will be forgiven. He said those who confess Him will be saved. He said that those who are baptized will be saved and receive His Spirit indwelling our hearts.

You trust in the 4-step church of Christ plan of salvation (with a heavy emphasis on trusting in water baptism for salvation) and you do not trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

I trust that He will keep His word as He has kept it in all the stories we have recorded in the OT. And when He says that only those who have been born of water and the Spirit will enter the Kingdom (the Church), I believe Him and trust that those who have not been born of water and the Spirit are not my brothers and sisters in Him yet.

You trust in water baptism for salvation. I trust exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. You trust in what you DO. I trust in what He DID.

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Roman Catholics make the same error.

 

[Doug Brents]

Good point about the "Church of God" (Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32) "Body of Christ," "the Way" etc.. yet more than a few folks who attend the Church of Christ have claimed to be the "true church" based on the name found in Romans 16:16.

Indeed, I have disputed that point with many who claim that because that name is on their wall they are the "one true Church". But if the doctrine is wrong, then the group is not part of the Church. And since salvation is received during baptism (Col 2, Rom 6), any group that teaches otherwise is not part of the true Church.

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6)

Apart from works of merit. But not apart from any action whatsoever.

Expression of faith, not a work for salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

Yes, an expression of faith that results in receiving salvation.

Faith in Christ and salvation is established first then action/works follow. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And how is faith established? Through repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism into Christ (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc.).

I have already explained Romans 10:8-10 to you numerous times, yet you still insist on turning confession into a work for salvation anyway. Your faith and actions argument culminates in salvation by faith and works.

Repentance (change of mind) is not a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord is not a work for salvation and the word of faith is in our mouth and our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8)

Acts 3:19 says clearly that repentance results in having sins forgiven. Rom 10:8-10 says clearly that belief (pistis=faith) and confession results in receiving salvation. This is clear, direct, and incontestable. These actions lead to/result in (not flow out of) receiving salvation.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Yes, they believed, and they received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit (just as the 120 did on Pentecost), but they did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit. The Apostles already had the indwelling from before Jesus ascended, so they did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit on Pentecost. And the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles had, in tongues of fire and miraculous works, not the indwelling, or salvation. Their sins were forgiven, and salvation received when they were baptized in water a short time after. As Jesus said, they had to be born of water (baptism) to enter the Kingdom of God.

Nothing there about baptism being absolutely required for salvation.

Not in this passage.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

We are condemned already, so the impetus is not on what condemns, but on what saves. If you eat your food and drink you juice you can go out and play. If I eat but don't drink, can I go out and play? No. I did not meet the conditions for going out to play. Belief is of the utmost importance in whether baptism has any effectiveness (if you don't believe but get baptized anyway, then you just get wet). But baptism is the point at which salvation is actually received (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14).

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

No, there is no parenthetical phrase. "For the remission of sins" refers back to both of those phrases. "Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." If "for the forgiveness of sins" refers back to only one phrase, it more properly relates to "be baptized" more than "repent". But because of what we see in Acts 3:19, and what we read in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4, we know that it refers to both phrases equally.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Perfect harmony only if you exclude other things we know. Like the fact that Col 2:11-14 says that our sins are cut from us during baptism, and that still during baptism we are united with Jesus death and resurrection. And again in Rom 6:1-4 it is during baptism that we die to sin and are united with Jesus death so that we can be united with His new life. This occurs during baptism, not at repentance, not when we believe, not when anything else happens. We receive salvation during baptism in water.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

This is exactly what Rom 6 and Col 2 are saying. It is during water baptism that the actual saving work of the Holy Spirit occurs. But if you are not baptized in water, then the Holy Spirit does not remove your sins and you remain condemned.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

You confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). I already thoroughly covered Colossians 2:11-14 and Romans 6:1-4 with you in post #378. Go back and read it again.

Post 378 was made by someone else; you must be referencing a different thread, but I don't know which one.
No, I am not confusing the picture with the reality. There is only one baptism of any relevance in the NT era, and that baptism MUST include water based on all the examples and statements about it that we see in Scripture.
Matt 28:19 - baptism is an act that man performs (not something that the Spirit does).
Mark 16:16 - baptism brings about salvation
1 Pet 3:21 - baptism is in water as the Flood was a symbolism of baptism
John 3:5 - man must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom
Eph 5:25-27 - the Church is sanctified by the washing of water by the Word (water and Spirit)
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized in Jesus' name so that you can receive forgiveness and the indwelling of the Spirit (water and Spirit)

You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so-called gospel plan. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Stop leaving out verse 8. Water baptism "follows" salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

I am not leaving out verse 8 of Rom 10. The context of the passage is very important, but verse 8 does not change the meaning of 9-10 which I cited. No, belief and confession of Jesus are not two separate steps chronologically (although one does have to believe before he can confess); they should come at the same time. As should baptism, because that is the point at which salvation is actually received, when we are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14).

The Bible makes it clear that men are saved prior to receiving water baptism.

Not at all. It is clear that man is saved during water baptism, not before.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47) This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ. (Acts 10:43)]

Speaking in tongues is not restricted only for those in the Church. The donkey in Num 22 was gifted by the Holy Spirit to speak (in tongues) but it was not even human, let alone part of the Church. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He chooses, and for the purpose He intends. His intent in Acts 10 is explained in Acts 11 where Peter is explaining himself to the other Apostles, and their conclusion is that the Gentiles are to be accepted into the Church along with the Jews, because the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in power just as the Jews did on Pentecost.

Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself. (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4) There are a handful of 'alleged' prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

Baptism is an outward response to the Gospel, and it most certainly is the point at which salvation is received, not something done afterwards. Your "careful examination of each ... in context" presumes an assumption that baptism comes after salvation. But reading Scripture without a filter, and without presumptions brings the understanding that we die to sin, forgiveness is received, past sin is cut from us, we are united with Jesus, and like Him are resurrected to new life during water baptism.

Yet what you teach the same errors about faith and works as Roman Catholics do.

Even a false religion can have some truth to their doctrine.

Campbellites basically teach that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works and Roman Catholics basically teach we are saved by faith "infused" with works. Both groups try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation by grace through faith, not works.

Faith is alive in Christ first and then the action/works follow. You have a dead faith producing works in order to become a living faith. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. Common sense.

No, faith is nonexistent until it has action. a living faith has action. If it does not have action it is not real, not alive. For faith to be alive in Christ first, then that faith must be producing action already, or else it is not really faith.

Oh yes, we are and yes, we do.

You contradict yourself. Either faith is alive in Christ first and then we are saved, or we are saved and then we have faith. It cannot be both. And Scripture says clearly that faith comes first. Faith leads to salvation. But that faith must be alive, real, active, and obedient for it to be effective in bringing salvation to us.

Repentance precedes faith.

Repentance is faith in action.

"Evidence" is the key word here. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8-10) so it's not about must confess but will confess. You turn confession into a work for salvation based on your CoC 4-step plan of salvation. That's the problem. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

And this confession "results in salvation" (Rom 10:10). It does not follow after salvation is received. Yes, the Holy Spirit is influencing the person, but His influence can come before salvation is received. He does not only influence those who are already in Christ.

Faith that is genuine has already gone through the process of repentance. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ, yet you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith in scripture. Read (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15 and Acts 20:21) and notice the order. This explains why you cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. The thief on the cross placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation while still hanging on the cross but was unable to get water baptized before he died. According to your logic, he did not have faith because baptism was not produced.

Repentance is an act of faith. Repentance does not precede faith, because it requires faith to repent. The thief on the cross exhibited faith in Jesus and was granted forgiveness while Jesus was alive and had the authority to forgive sin at His discretion (Luke 5:34). Before His death, Jesus could forgive sin as He pleased, but after His death His will (last will and testament) was locked and established. Sin is now only forgiven as He established in His will (the New Testament), and it says that forgiveness is received when we are baptized in water.

In regard to James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple! Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Works are not the fruit of faith, they are the soul of faith (James 2:26). And as such they do give life to faith. But either way, if there is no action then there is no real faith. If there is no action then faith does not exist. And a living faith must come before salvation is received.

Sure, you do. Salvation by works.

There is no such thing as "salvation by works" and there is no such thing as "salvation without doing anything". Neither is a true Biblical concept. There is no action that can earn salvation. But there is also no salvation without meeting the conditions that God set for receiving His gift.

You trust in the 4-step church of Christ plan of salvation (with a heavy emphasis on trusting in water baptism for salvation) and you do not trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Wrong. Without the death, burial, and resurrection of my Lord and Savior, baptism would be meaningless. But without baptism one cannot receive the benefit of His sacrifice, because He is the savior of those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

You trust in water baptism for salvation. I trust exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. You trust in what you DO. I trust in what He DID.

Wrong again. I trust in what He did and what He said. He said that if I am baptized, I will receive His forgiveness and resurrection. Just as Naaman was told to dip in Jordan 7 times to be cleansed, and he was cleansed when he dipped the 7th time. I trust in His promises because He has proven His trustworthiness. If He had not said that baptism was the point at which salvation is received, then I would not preach it. But He did, and so I must.

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

There is a distinction made by Jesus between water and the Spirit. Yes, the living water flows from the heart of the one in whom the Spirit dwells, but He comes to dwell in the person at salvation, not before. So the living water here is not the water that brings about salvation. It is the water that perpetually cleanses the person as stated in 1 John 1:7-9. The water that causes rebirth is the water of baptism as Rom 6:1-4 states. We die to sin and arise to new life in baptism.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

You deliberately misuse what is being said. Baptism is not water, it is defined as "immersion". It is during immersion in water that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ.

 

[dwight92070]

Log-eye disease is easy to explain but hard to overcome. It’s our natural tendency to see the speck in someone else’s eye while being oblivious to the log in our own. It’s why we see and remember the worst in others while seeing and remembering only the best in ourselves. For that, we can thank Adam. Ever since his infamous fall, log-eye disease has been epidemic. So much so that Jesus famously warned us about its dangers when it comes to making judgments about others. Jesus told us not to judge others least we be judged.

To judge means: to separate, to pick out, select, choose. By implication, it means to condemn, punish—avenge, conclude. Jesus warned us not to fall into that.

One of the glaring symptoms of log eye disease Is the tendency to point out conceived faults and others and then being able to ignore our own faults when they are pointed out to us.

To judge another person shows pride. Only God knows what is in a person’s heart.

No, it is NOT always pride. That's the nonbeliever's favorite Bible verse: "Judge not lest you be judged." Nonbelievers love to throw that verse in the Christian's face, if we dare to condemn transgenderism or homosexuality or people living together, etc. Actually what Jesus was saying was: If you're living in sexual sin, then you have no excuse whatsoever to condemn those sins, because you're doing the same thing. On the other hand, if you repent and stop living in sexual sin, then you have taken the log out of your own eye, and now you can see clearly to take the speck out of another's eye.

It's unfortunate that many Christians choose that for their favorite verse as well. They don't realize that often times, when they quote it, they are doing the very thing it says not to do. If another Christian confronts them about something, they will hit them with, "Judge not lest you be judged." Or if they hear a fellow believer say that homosexuality is a sin - again they will say, "Judge not lest you be judged." Or "their sin is no worse than mine - who am I to judge?" "Which of you is without sin?"

All of that nonsense leads nowhere, because that's NOT what the Bible teaches. Jesus also said, "Judge with righteous judgment." John 7:24 Paul said, "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who within the church? 1 Corinthians 5:12

The truth is that we ALL make judgments ALL day long. We judge how people look, how they talk, what they do or don't do, We judge how rich they look or how poor they look. "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

There are two definitions of "judge" 1. To form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
and 2. To condemn
Also we make judgments about both people and things - inanimate objects.

But we can make a judgment about a person without condemning them. "That person is a liar." Well, if the person continually lies, then that is a correct judgment. We're not necessarily condemning him, just identifying what we observe. Or we could say, "That person dresses well, or is pretty, or handsome. or speaks well, or is strong, etc." We're still judging, but not condemning.

If a Christian uses filthy speech, and we rebuke them, are we judging them? Yes, we are acknowledging what they said does not honor God, especially if they claim to be a Christian. But if we turn around and do the same thing later, then we're a hypocrite as Jesus said. So we need to get our speech in order before we judge others.

Luke 17:3 Jesus said "Be on your guard. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

How many of us obey this commandment? We should! But that DEMANDS that we are NOT doing the same thing, or else we are hypocrites. Unfortunately too many Christians know there are areas of sin in their life, which they don't want to change, so they wouldn't DARE rebuke someone else, lest they be self-condemned. These are the ones who LOVE to quote, "Judge not lest you be judged." In other words, I won't say anything about your sin, if you keep quiet about my sin.

 

[Hosanna]

No, it is NOT always pride. That's the nonbeliever's favorite Bible verse: "Judge not lest you be judged." Nonbelievers love to throw that verse in the Christian's face, if we dare to condemn transgenderism or homosexuality or people living together, etc. Actually what Jesus was saying was: If you're living in sexual sin, then you have no excuse whatsoever to condemn those sins, because you're doing the same thing. On the other hand, if you repent and stop living in sexual sin, then you have taken the log out of your own eye, and now you can see clearly to take the speck out of another's eye.

It's unfortunate that many Christians choose that for their favorite verse as well. They don't realize that often times, when they quote it, they are doing the very thing it says not to do. If another Christian confronts them about something, they will hit them with, "Judge not lest you be judged." Or if they hear a fellow believer say that homosexuality is a sin - again they will say, "Judge not lest you be judged." Or "their sin is no worse than mine - who am I to judge?" "Which of you is without sin?"

All of that nonsense leads nowhere, because that's NOT what the Bible teaches. Jesus also said, "Judge with righteous judgment." John 7:24 Paul said, "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who within the church? 1 Corinthians 5:12

The truth is that we ALL make judgments ALL day long. We judge how people look, how they talk, what they do or don't do, We judge how rich they look or how poor they look. "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

There are two definitions of "judge" 1. To form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
and 2. To condemn
Also we make judgments about both people and things - inanimate objects.

But we can make a judgment about a person without condemning them. "That person is a liar." Well, if the person continually lies, then that is a correct judgment. We're not necessarily condemning him, just identifying what we observe. Or we could say, "That person dresses well, or is pretty, or handsome. or speaks well, or is strong, etc." We're still judging, but not condemning.

If a Christian uses filthy speech, and we rebuke them, are we judging them? Yes, we are acknowledging what they said does not honor God, especially if they claim to be a Christian. But if we turn around and do the same thing later, then we're a hypocrite as Jesus said. So we need to get our speech in order before we judge others.

Luke 17:3 Jesus said "Be on your guard. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

How many of us obey this commandment? We should! But that DEMANDS that we are NOT doing the same thing, or else we are hypocrites. Unfortunately too many Christians know there are areas of sin in their life, which they don't want to change, so they wouldn't DARE rebuke someone else, lest they be self-condemned. These are the ones who LOVE to quote, "Judge not lest you be judged." In other words, I won't say anything about your sin, if you keep quiet about my sin.

I think the point of my post from last October is " we see the worst others while seeing and remembering only the best in ourselves" Log in eye disease it's like a metaphor. Sort of like "if the shoe fits wear it."

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is a noun believe is the verb

neither mean to be baptized with water

This is getting old

The verses are there

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/works-salvation.970/post-50634

and i could have doubled them

None mention water baptism

Amen brother! The Greek words for "pistis" (faith) and "pisteuo" (believe) are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works, including baptism. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone for salvation. Now this belief/faith does result in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.

It's nice to see that someone gets it.

 

[Obadiah]

Correction in #932, I referenced John 5:28-29. That's a mistake. It should be John 6:28-29, where Jesus makes it crystal clear that the ONLY work necessary for salvation is to believe in Jesus - not water baptism, not confessing that Jesus is Lord. These are good works which should be done AFTER one is saved by believing in Jesus.

What about Romans 10:9 ? Just asking a question.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Let's see what you're saying if something as big as getting saved happened to you when you believed in Jesus of course you would want to tell someone about it and that would be like confessing with your mouth. Just stating that you now believe in Jesus.
I think I get it. So there's really no contradiction. You're saved by believing and you're confirming it by speaking it out loud.

 

[TomL]

Amen brother! The Greek words for "pistis" (faith) and "pisteuo" (believe) are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works, including baptism. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone for salvation. Now this belief/faith does result in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.

It's nice to see that someone gets it.

Amen