"Works Salvation"

[Jim]

I've always believed we are all born with a measure of faith.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Romans 10:17 does produce faith, and it is rhema, the spoken word of God.

If you read and study that entire passage, you will understand that the subject being addressed there is the gifts of grace. It is the gifts that are given in proportion to our faith. It is not faith that is being given; rather it is the gifts that are being given. Our faith is used as the measure for assigning, i.e., giving, those gifts.

 

[charismaticlady]

God does not "give" us faith. He gave us Christ and His Gospel in whom/which we are to have faith. Faith is our response to Him. Faith is our trust and and reliance on Him, characterized and demonstrated by our obedient actions. If there are no actions, no obedience, then we do not really have faith, regardless of what we think or say.

I think you are wrong. I would think that faith in Christ would be more than one measure! No, I think God gives a measure to mankind. That is why atheists are called fools in Scripture.

cc: @Jim

 

[Doug Brents]

I think you are wrong. I would think that faith in Christ would be more than one measure! No, I think God gives a measure to mankind. That is why atheists are called fools in Scripture.

cc: @Jim

Atheists are called fools in Scripture because the natural world screams that there is a God (Rom 1:20).

Further, if faith were gifted from God, then Jesus had no reason to criticize the Apostles (and many others) for having little faith.

You are welcome to disagree with me all you want, but that doesn't change what Scripture says about faith being man's response to God, and not being a gift from God.

 

[charismaticlady]

li

Atheists are called fools in Scripture because the natural world screams that there is a God (Rom 1:20).

Further, if faith were gifted from God, then Jesus had no reason to criticize the Apostles (and many others) for having little faith.

You are welcome to disagree with me all you want, but that doesn't change what Scripture says about faith being man's response to God, and not being a gift from God.

little faith is no faith at all

 

[Lions Mane]

And Jesus said unto them, “Because of your unbelief; for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, ‘Remove hence to yonder place,’ and it shall remove. And nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matthew 17:20

In the Parable of the Mustard Seed, Jesus used the tiny seed, which grows into a large tree, it symbolizes that even a tiny amount of faith can lead to great things and the ability to overcome large obstacles.

 

[Doug Brents]

little faith is no faith at all

That is like saying that a little sin is no sin at all.

 

[Lions Mane]

God has not given us the authority to establish values for different sins. Instead He says through James, “Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for [is guilty of] all of it” (James 2:10).

That Scripture is difficult for us to understand because we think in terms of individual laws and their respective penalties. But God’s Law is seamless. The Bible speaks not of God’s laws, as if many of them, but of God’s Law as a single whole.

When a person commits murder, he breaks God’s Law. When a Christian lets speech that tends to tear down another person come out of his mouth, he breaks God’s Law.

 

[Jim]

God has not given us the authority to establish values for different sins. Instead He says through James, “Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for [is guilty of] all of it” (James 2:10).

That Scripture is difficult for us to understand because we think in terms of individual laws and their respective penalties. But God’s Law is seamless. The Bible speaks not of God’s laws, as if many of them, but of God’s Law as a single whole.

You need to be a little careful with that thinking. James is not saying that if you steal you are a murderer. He is saying that the punishment of even one seemingly little sin is eternal condemnation. He is not denying the possibility of various degrees of punishment in the eternal condemnation of sin.

When a person commits murder, he breaks God’s Law. When a Christian lets speech that tends to tear down another person come out of his mouth, he breaks God’s Law.

Yes, but he is not a murderer.

 

[Lions Mane]

The Bible verse Matthew 5:22, which states that calling a brother "fool" is as serious as murder, and can result in "hell fire". This is part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, where He contrasts the old law with a more rigorous spiritual interpretation. Jesus expands the definition of "murder" beyond physical killing to include internal anger and verbal insults.

The person who hates his brother is, like ‘’Cain’’, a murderer. Such a person is not "abiding" in eternal life

 

[charismaticlady]

That is like saying that a little sin is no sin at all.

Do you believe in "sin is sin"? Or do you believe how God sees sin?

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you believe in "sin is sin"? Or do you believe how God sees sin?

I believe that all sin is a violation of God's Law (1 John 3:4).
The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).
There may be degrees of punishment in Hell for "greater" sins vs "lesser" sins, just as there may be degrees of reward in Heaven. But if you have sinned (and everyone has (Rom 3:23)) and have not received forgiveness for that sin through Jesus' blood, then you are damned to Hell for eternity regardless of the "severity" of the sin. So for all intents and purposes, sin is sin.

 

[Angelo]

The Bible verse Matthew 5:22, which states that calling a brother "fool" is as serious as murder, and can result in "hell fire". This is part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, where He contrasts the old law with a more rigorous spiritual interpretation. Jesus expands the definition of "murder" beyond physical killing to include internal anger and verbal insults.

The person who hates his brother is, like ‘’Cain’’, a murderer. Such a person is not "abiding" in eternal life

Exodus commands, "You shall not murder," but Jesus uses the same word for murder in Matthew 5 and includes hatred and uncontrolled anger as being equal to murder of the heart. This reminds us that the sin is not just a behavior but an attitude of the heart.

Forgiveness rather than revenge is not merely ethical it's redemptive. Reconciliation, however difficult it may be, is God's directive to be peacemakers, and it protects the heart from the corrosive power of bitterness.

 

[Lions Mane]

Exodus commands, "You shall not murder," but Jesus uses the same word for murder in Matthew 5 and includes hatred and uncontrolled anger as being equal to murder of the heart. This reminds us that the sin is not just a behavior but an attitude of the heart.

Forgiveness rather than revenge is not merely ethical it's redemptive. Reconciliation, however difficult it may be, is God's directive to be peacemakers, and it protects the heart from the corrosive power of bitterness.

Pride is called the cause of all sin for a reason. Proverbs 16:18 warns that "pride goes before destruction," and it's not just pride it's pride in being self-sufficient that excludes God. It might show up in refusing to acknowledge mistakes, subtly one-upping folks

 

[Jim]

The person who hates his brother is, like ‘’Cain’’, a murderer. Such a person is not "abiding" in eternal life

That is simply not true. Matthew 5:22 doesn't say that.

 

[Lions Mane]

Why would calling someone a fool a fool make them liable of hell?

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5:17

Christ has pointed out well-known commandment not to murder (Exodus 20:13) and the civil judgment for those who do: death (Numbers 35:31).

Jesus acknowledges that someone who insults another risks judgment from other men. By this, Jesus may have meant that someone who is angry enough to insult another must answer not just to God, but to government, such as the council of Jewish religious leaders. Even in the ancient era, speaking unkind words could result in legal problems. The term Jesus uses here is rhaka, originally a Hebrew word which can mean "fool" or "empty head."

Next, though, Jesus escalates this teaching even further. The original phrasing of this verse uses the Greek term mōre, used as a slur like calling someone a "moron," or an "idiot." Whether Jesus means the same level of insult as the prior phrase, or something worse, the point is clear: being angry enough to insult another makes a person liable to the "hell of fire." The word "hell," in this case, is translated from the Greek word geenna, a reference to the ever-burning trash dump outside the city, used as a symbolic reference to eternal damnation.

Jesus is showing that God cares about actions, but He cares most about the heart. The reason for the command not to murder is given in Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image." If being made in the image of God makes it wrong to murder, it also makes it wrong to call a person "worthless." Guarding the heart, and the mind, is just as much part of obedience to God as good behavior.

Matthew 5:21–26 begins to expand Jesus' comments about righteousness. The underlying theme is that sin involves more than just physical actions: it also includes thoughts and attitudes. It's relatively easy to say, ''I do not murder,'' but very difficult to say, ''I'm not unfairly angry towards other people.'' The point is not that anger is literally-and-exactly the same as murder. Rather, it's that unrighteous anger is undeniably a sin, in and of itself. True righteousness—the kind that would be needed to earn heaven—requires that level of perfection. Not only does this teaching counter superficial religious hypocrisy, it underscores the fact that salvation must be by grace through faith, and can never be earned by good works.
BibleRef

 

[civic]

if he would look up the word. the word means to have an assurance, to have a confidence in. to trust. it is not mere belief where we have no faith.

ditto

 

[civic]

Yes. I do have a recollection of this.
I've found that what @Seabass posts is very solid.
It's nice to hear from you too.
Hope all is OK.

I like @Seabass since he loves to fish too.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Like you. He preaches the work of water baptism is required for salvation.

You both teach works.

If you are speaking of RB... @Red Baker ... I do not read or follow him now.... I can assure you unless he has changed over the past 7 or 8 years he never taught that Baptism is required for salvation.

If I am wrong let him come and explain.

He preaches that it is necessary as it was commanded by Jesus, but not to be saved.

I know... I can give testimony to what he always had taught...

Years ago, on another forum I got convinced from 8 or 9 men that I had to be baptised to be saved. That my predestined preaching church had it wrong cause they did/do babies... Calvin style.

Long story short... I ran around my area and could not make it happen.... These 8 or 9 were from the church of Christ and I contacted two local coC and one pushed me onto another... and the other said ok, until they backed out.

Red volunteered to baptize me IF I made my way to his house. I could not... but I know for a fact that at that time
he was not into Mark 16:16 at all.

Jim is aware of this as he also was a member of that forum too.

BTW... Water Baptism is not a work.

NOT a work in the sense that Paul condemns when he says we are “not saved by works.”The New Testament treats baptism as the God-given sign and seal of the faith we already have, not as a meritorious deed that earns salvation.

“Water baptism is the outward sign and God-ordained response to the faith that saves us — it is never presented in Scripture as a work that earns or adds to the finished work of Christ on the cross.”

 

[FreeInChrist]

Therre is an ongoing debate in most of Christendom about what precisely constitute baptism of/in/with/of the Holy Spirit. One group think that what happened to those in Acts 2:4; 10:44 and 19:5 describes baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurred only for a very select few. The second group think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is one and the same as born again which occurs for every NT Christian.

I would add here that there is also no universal understanding of the phrases such as "filled with the Holy Spirit", "the Holy Spirit fell upon", "receive the Holy Spirit",

Thus, any discussion concerning "baptism of/in/with/by the Holy Spirit" will nearly always suffer from the disagreement of what it even is.

The subject needs to be broken down into who has actually experienced the Holy Spirit and others who He lives in them , but has had not real one on one experience.

There should be no assumptions about it. You should know without a doubt that

At that moment that the Spirit entered you, regenerated you, and gave you the real baptism with the Holy Spirit.

You were born again, placed into the Body, and sealed as God’s child.

And you can go a lifetime before it happens.... but once it does YOU ARE changed in thought and deed and you just know.

 

[Jay]

The crossing of the Jordan River by the Israelites into the Promised Land and the baptism of Jesus are deeply connected symbolically in Christianity, both representing transitions into a new life. The crossing of the Jordan led the Israelites to a new land, while Jesus' baptism in the same river marked the beginning of his public ministry, with spiritual significance attached to both events as a new beginning and a divine transition.
Our water baptism is also symbolic and is not a work we do to earn our salvation.