Will Babies that die go to Heaven?
- Thread starter Aeliana
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jeremiah1five
Active Member
Salvation is of the Jews. All Jews no matter their age are in salvation covenant with God.The Bible is clear that God’s love for all He has created extends to the young child, the infant, the baby yet unborn. Those who cannot discern right from wrong, whose minds have not developed enough to understand sin, repentance, grace, and forgiveness, are not held accountable for errors made in ignorance. As Jesus welcomed the little children during His earthy ministry, so He will open His arms to them in heaven....
The Bible assures us that children go to heaven to be with the Lord. The Lord loves children and isn’t willing for any of them to perish. Not one of them will be lost. Let me show you two Scriptures on this.
1. “I Shall Go to Him” (2 Sam. 12:16–23). When David said in verse 23: “I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me,” he understood that he would see his baby again in heaven, that the child had gone to be with the Lord. His grief was great, but his joy came from anticipating the coming reunion.
2. “She Is Not Dead But Sleeping” (Mark 5:21–43). The mourners at the funeral of this little girl were wailing in grief, but that wasn’t Jesus’ perspective when He arrived on the scene. Christ looked at the little form lying there and said three remarkable things:
A. She is not dead! Those words are for every mom, dad, or grandparent who has lost a little one. This child that miscarried, this child that was stillborn, this child that was aborted, this child that died of SIDS, this child who perished in the natural disaster—these children are not dead. This is Bible-speak. This is Jesus-talk.
B. …but sleeping. This little body is resting, and his (her) soul is with Jesus.
C. Talitha, cumi… Little girl, I say to you, arise. The miracle of this little girl’s resurrection was a token of what He is going to do when He comes again, and the dead in Christ are raised first.
Robert J. Morgan
Robert's Bookstore
Robert J. Morgan authored The Red Sea Rules, Then Sings My Soul, and dozens more books. He's a preacher, Bible teacher, and hymns expert.www.robertjmorgan.com
Non-Hebrew Gentiles are not in any of the three Hebrew Covenants and are thus outside God's salvation.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.
Non-Hebrew Gentiles are not nor ever have they ever been under God's Law
Tranquil
Active Member
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3:16
No other verse in the Bible so succinctly summarizes God’s relationship with humanity and the way of salvation.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Good Lord, man. Stop with all this false Constantinian Gentile theology.
The word "world" (Greek: "kosmos") is in context to whom Jesus is speaking to, in this case, a religious leader in Israel named Nicodemus. One rabbi to another. Jesus would not break Scripture by having "world" refer to Gentiles. It refers to the "world" of Jews. But here, chew on this passage which needs no interpretation of Greek words and their context:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:3–5.
God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles thus non-Hebrew Gentiles do not have salvation offered to them as God offered salvation to the Hebrew people progressively throughout the centuries. First, with the Abraham Covenant with Abram the HEBREW (Gen. 14:13), then with the children of Israel in the desert with Moses at the time of the Tabernacle. The first Passover was in Egypt when God personally killed all the first born of the non-Hebrew Gentile Egyptians.
The New Covenant instituted by Jesus at the last Passover came into being with the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise at the Jewish Feast of Harvest (Pentecost), a promise God made through the prophet Joel to the children of Israel. AND the New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah (NO GENTILES INCLUDED.)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31.
If you're going to come at me then come with the bible. I have no patience with those who say a wrong - many wrong - things about the One True God.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Of course!! "Original Sin" is just another lying Roman Catholic fantasy. people die / are condemned for THEIR OWN SIN, and we inherited NOTHING from Adam other than out HUMAN NATURE - the same one Adam was created with, that Jesus had, and that all humanity shares.
Amen!!
In my Christian opinion, this must be absolutely true. But to accept this truth leads to a distortion in another bit of dogma that insists that death cannot be the wages for, earned by, sin but is a mere consequence of life because babies and infants in utero die apparently before they can conceive of rebelling sinfully against GOD. They do not inherit sin from Adam so how do they become sinful so they have earned the wages of sin, ie, death?
The current favorite answer is to sacrifice the truth that death is indeed the wages of sinfulness and therefore death proves sinfulness on the altar of no inherited sin.
Why would GOD have Paul write that death is the wages for sin if death is in fact a mere consequence of life and has no theological meaning? Where is death probably earned? In the womb or pre-womb as a spirit?
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Of course the problem here is "Dogma"/"theology"/ "theologians OPINIONS" about things - which in many cases don't MEAN SPIT.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
You need to be careful about WHICH DEATH is being discussed. the less important PHYSICAL DEATH, or the Utterly crucial SPIRITUAL DEATH.
Since the human body replcates itself endlessly, there essentially NO REASON for aging - if the replication were accurate. that it ISN'T ACCURATE has got to be a purposful "design issue". God cursed TWO THINGS in the garden - the serpent, and the "Ground". Could be that AGING is part of that curse since "ground" is where we came from, and return to.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Because God is concerned about the salvation of our soul.
By the same token, we don't love God because we expect him to preserve our nose, liver or kidneys in exchange. This is not how love works.
Our desire to keep our nose, liver and kidneys healthy is to enable us to perform God's will on earth (our mission) by means of acts that require a physical body. Once our mission is completed, we have no issues in leaving our body.
Paul shows us how of how he felt (Phil 1:21-24)
"For to me, to continue living is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor to me. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. I am in a difficult position between the two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake."
That is not true, though it is true that the Gentiles have never been under God's law. We are not outside of God's salvation if we are believers. Paul put it the clearest when he said that it is by the rejection of God's salvation, of God's Messiah by the Jews that the gospel and salvation went out to the Gentiles. Salvation is universal, for all whom the Father draws to His Son and believe in Him and accept Him. If we have never been under God's law that announces sin, then we can't be sinners, can we? We are not a part of the covenant God has made with the Jews, but we still live in His creation, and we are still under sin. Was Eve a Jew when God prophesied the coming Messiah who would conquer sin?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
I posted Scripture that supports my statement and contradicts yours. Don't you believe in Scripture? Are you even a Christian? Let me try again.
Saul states that those who were under the Law of Moses are the ones who are redeemed.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:4–5.
If non-Hebrew Gentiles were never under the Law - and you got that right - then they were never in covenant with God. The children of Israel were given the Law of Moses. There are three parts to the Law of Moses. Moral Law, Social Law, and Ceremonial Law. Every year on the Jewish high day of Yom Kippur sacrifices were made to atone temporarily and yearly the sins of the children of Israel. Jesus Himself said He did not come to destroy the Law (of Moses), but to fulfill. Any change in the Law would destroy the Law. So, if the sacrifices were made to atone for the sins of the children of Israel, and Jesus Christ, as High Priest offered Himself for the sins of the children of Israel, then only the children of Israel were the ones atoned. So, to add non-Hebrew Gentiles now as being atoned and their sins forgiven by God then you are teaching a change in the Law of Moses and in doing that teach Jesus destroyed the Law and sinned against God.
There are three major salvation covenants between God and the Hebrew people.
The Abrahamic Covenant was between God, Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and Abram's Hebrew seed (or descendants.) There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in this covenant.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.
The Mosaic Covenant was made by God and included God and the children of Israel. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in this covenant either. For hundreds of years the sins of the children of Israel were atoned yearly while for hundreds of years non-Hebrew Gentiles were born into the world and died without forgiveness nor salvation for the high priest offered sacrifices for the children of Israel according to the command of God.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exodus 19:5–6.
The New Covenant was prophesied by the prophet Jeremiah, and it was between God, the ten northern kingdom tribes of the House of Israel, and the two southern kingdom tribes of the House of Judah. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in this prophecy nor included in this covenant.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31–34.
At the last Passover Jesus established this New Covenant in His own blood, and it came into being with the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) at the Jewish Feast of Harvest (Pentecost.)
Ever heard of the Diaspora? In 722 BC the Assyrians attacked the northern kingdom of Israel and took many of them captive back to Assyria. Then, in 586 BC the Babylonians defeated Assyria and also attacked the southern kingdom of Judah, destroyed their land and took many of the Jews captive back to Babylon. From 722 BC to when Jesus arrived it is estimated that 29-35 generations of Jews were born, grew up in Gentile lands and were heavily influenced by Greek culture. Many Jews lost their heritage and their religion. In 522 BC Cyrus the Great allowed Nehemiah (and then Ezra) to return to Israel and a remnant left Babylon and returned to Israel while the majority of all living Jews remained in Gentile lands. When Jesus arrived and was crucified outside Jerusalem there were many that called for crucifixion but over two million Jews remaining in Gentile's land knew nothing of Jesus or that God had sent His Son to Israel. So, several thousand Jews in Jerusalem who witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus does not represent over two million Jews who remained in Gentile land and knew nothing about Jesus and cannot be charged with "rejecting" Jesus.
After resurrection and before Jesus ascended, He sent eleven disciples into Gentile lands where the majority of Jews lived for the purpose of heralding to them that God had sent Israel's Messiah, Lord, and King to Israel with a good news gospel to them that God has kept His promise(s.) THAT is the gospel of God. Saul's gospel was a message that contained a different message. God never made any kind of covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. There is nothing in the Old Testament that says this. God will not condemn millions of Jews for the acts of several thousands who called for the crucifixion of Jesus in Jerusalem.
If you believe that then you believe in the false teaching of Universalism.
Nor is "accepting Jesus" a part of salvation for there is nothing in Jeremiah's prophecy of a New Covenant that says such a thing. And Romans 10:9-10 is not a formula for salvation. Covenant is. In Romans Saul is quoting an Old Testament Scripture in order to encourage Jews at Rome who were going through persecution by other Jews. Saul wrote to a people at Rome who were ALREADY saved (Rom. 1:7.)
Let's see what Scripture says on that point.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Romans 2:12.
and
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14.
So, the answer is "No."
Not true. Merely guessing because you're trying to find a justification is only adding to God's Word and that is dangerous. It is a sin.
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.
You believe in a lie.
Nope. But she and Adam were atoned by God Himself in Genesis 3.
This was the beginning of substitutionary sacrifice for sin taught them by God.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Genesis 3:21.
Believe the Scripture. God at one point in human history set in motion covenants through which He would save His people from their sins. Jesus was named Jesus by Gabriel in Matthew 1:21 because it says He will save His people from their sin.
His people are the Hebrew people.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:21.
Believe the Scripture. It is given to His people for doctrine and knowing what to believe. Be careful of commentaries and other people's bible studies. Study the Word under the anointing and God will teach you His Word so that you know what to believe and why. God hates liars and ignorant people.
Let's start with the simplest one. Romans 1:16 "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
The Galatian church is a greek/gentile church in the area of Turkey. Paul was writing to Gentiles to help them understand why they must reject the message of the Judaizers who were telling the Gentiles that they had to put themselves under the law and become Jews in order to be saved. Paul is explaining the role of the law, and is explaining how Christ and faith is better than the law. What does Romans 2 say?
"Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 And I went up [a]because of a revelation, and I laid out to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, lest somehow I might be running, or had run, in vain.
You are so off base it isn't funny. You have no scripture for the above, because the two verses you mention does not cover it. Consider this:
Romans 9
23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
I take it you really hate Paul?
The Jews are special as God's chosen people for the time. It will continue until the end, but Revelation 21 does not have the continuing as God's chosen people. It is there where God calls all mankind His chosen people. However, that would be a lie if there were no Gentiles. All there is are Jews and Gentiles.
Your understanding leaves much to be desired. Why did all those people die from Adam to Moses if 1. there was no law, 2. there is no sin where there is no law, 3. death came into the world through sin. (paul spoke about it in Romans.) It is because of "original sin". For by one man sin entered the world, and by sin death. Not by a multitude of men. By one man. Adam. Not by a woman, not by Eve. Adam was the one given dominion over creation, which made him the federal head of creation and of mankind. Hence the reason why a perfect world was corrupted by sin after Adam sinned.
God has condemned the WHOLE WORLD. Have you actually read the Bible? For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All means all. For the wages of sin is death... full stop. There is a but, but it is specific. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus and God Himself spell out exactly as that is.
So for you last sentence, did God ignore His Son, or deny His Sons request when He prayed "Forgive them for they know not what they do?" None of them are condemned, they are only remembered. And all Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, unless you can point out one who accepted. Saul's message was different in that even James in the church said that the Gentiles should not be put under the yoke of the law, a burden not even the Jews could bear. He gave them some instructions and said if they followed these instructions, it would go well with them.
What did Paul say about the Jews? Romans 9:6-8
"6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s seed, but: “[d]through Isaac your seed will be named.” 8 That is, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are considered as seed."
More Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, laid hold of righteousness, even the righteousness which is [p]by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it [q]by faith, but as though it were [r]by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, [that stone is Jesus]
That is not God making them holy and pure. He atoned for what they did, but the consequences remained, and even Paul speaks of those in Romans.
There is a new covenant that encompasses Jews and Gentiles. However, what you may have an issue with understanding, that does not nullify the promises made to the forefathers. It also does not change the fact that Jewish eschatology is at the heart of eschatology, where both Israel and the world will face tribulation before the end. (The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, and the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.) The various parts of God's plan of reaction will not come together until the consummation, and that is after Jesus reigns in Jerusalem for the millennial Kingdom over the whole world. That is all the prophecies in Zechariah where it talks about Gentiles grabbing onto the cloak of a Jew (a number of Gentiles) asking to know about God, and all of those prophecies.
For now. Read Revelation 21. Also consider that prophecy from Hosea where God said He would call those He did not call His people, His people. That is the Gentiles. I would make the important extension of, Gentile believers. not all Gentiles.
You are wrong about the gospel. It is universal. Jesus told the disciples to go out into all the world and make disciples of all nations. The apostles handed the vast majority of the work of making disciples of the Gentiles to Paul. What you need to understand is that salvation is for all mankind, and it came through Israel. (Romans 12.) By the disobedience of Israel, the Gentiles became obedient. Once the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, then all Israel will be saved. (The remnant of Israel.) He also speaks of the salvation of the Gentiles, and how the salvation of the Jews would be like life from the dead. Why? Israel's rejection of their Messiah and of salvation. Their change of heart, from disbelief/unbelief to belief, is like life from the dead. Salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Greek. If it wasn't for God choosing a nation, in this case Israel, through which to send the Messiah, there would be no salvation at all. So again, one must not forget that salvation was first to the Jews (who rejected) then to the Greek who accepted.
Romans 9 one last time:
"27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;"
Romans 11:
"28 [h]From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Julie
Active Member
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me. But why should I fast now that he's dead? Can I bring him back? [Someday] I'll go to him, but he won't come back to me."
2 Samuel 12:23
This verse could certainly imply that babies who die go to heaven. Regarding his child who died, King David declared, “But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” Being that David wrote special revelation (Scripture), it would not be a stretch to surmise that babies who die are destined for heaven, where David himself knew he was going.
2 Samuel 12:23
This verse could certainly imply that babies who die go to heaven. Regarding his child who died, King David declared, “But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” Being that David wrote special revelation (Scripture), it would not be a stretch to surmise that babies who die are destined for heaven, where David himself knew he was going.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Greek refers to Hellenized Jews, not Gentiles else it would say Gentiles.
All the Hebrew writings from Matthew to Revelation are just that: Hebrew writings to the Hebrew people.
Judaizers had nothing to do with Gentiles, and it was not Gentiles they wanted to circumcise, but Hellenized Jews of mixed heritage that became born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel 3.) No Jew would ever seek to circumcise non-Hebrew Gentiles because 1. they knew the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants were between Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and his Hebrew seed; and 2. between God and the children of Israel, respectively.
And the reason why Jesus commanded His eleven disciples to go among the Gentiles was because the majority of Hebrews and Hebrews or mixed heritage lived and grew up. They knew nothing about Jesus' arrival and what He did while alive and living in Israel. The message or good news they were to herald was that God has kept His Promise(s) and their Messiah had come. An honest reading of the Hebrew Scripture from Genesis to Malachi (Law, Psalms, and Prophets) was a history of the people, events, the culture, religion, of the Hebrew people and all Jews knew their covenants did not include non-Hebrew Gentiles. If any Jews (or religious leaders) ever tried to circumcise non-Hebrew Gentiles they would have been stoned and riots would have resulted, but no riots were ever recorded in the New Covenant writings.
The Jerusalem Council (AD 50) recorded in Acts 15 is a testimony of the Jewish apostles and Jewish elders (including priests) who wanted to circumcise these mixed heritage Hebrews who became born-again. These Jews of the Diaspora grew up in Assyria and Babylon and in Gentile cities and towns in-between since taken captive first by the Assyrians (722 BC), and the Babylonians (586 BC.) From 722 BC until Jesus appeared about 29-35 generations of Jews lived and grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. They had grown up Gentile and many Jews lost their religion, and many males were not circumcised. At this time Christianity was seen as a sect of Judaism until Jews couldn't overcome the stumbling block of how their Messiah and King had died on a cross - despite the witness of a resurrection. What was the stumbling block? The Law states that anyone who hung on a tree was cursed. They could not reconcile this with the testimony that their Lord and King was crucified on a tree (hung on a tree.) First, excommunication then outright persecution. These are they which the author of Hebrews says:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4–6.
Because of persecution they (Jewish Christians) wanted to return to Judaism, but it was impossible.
What was decided at the Jerusalem Council? Mixed heritage Hebrews were instructed to obey four aspects of the Law of Moses:
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 15:29.
All Jews were very aware that their covenants were between God, Abram, and Abram's seed (children of Israel.)
On the contrary. Saul is a perfect example that when Jews became born-again, they remained obedient to the Law of Moses. Their relationship with the Law of Moses changed when they became born-again. Their love for God was zealous and Jews were zealous of the Law of Moses. Saul himself after meeting Jesus and becoming born-again remained a rabbi and Pharisee. And he was excited for the Law of Moses for it was, he learned, profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness and he continued to teach as Jesus taught which was from the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. There was a time in which God 'divorced' from His people and for a time they were 'not [My people.]" But Scripture says God is betrothed to Israel FOREVER. Scripture identifies the Church Jesus promised to build as the children of Israel except they were called a "great congregation" from the time of the Tabernacle going forward.
17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:17–20.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:23–24.
Who do you think the Marriage Supper included but God and Israel.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever;
Yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment,
And in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness:
Hosea 2:19–20.
18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation:
I will praise thee among much people.
Psalms 35:18.
8 Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. 2 Chronicles 7:8.
Incorrect. God's chosen people are identified in Scripture, and they are Israel.
Revelation is a prophecy of, to, and for the Jewish people.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Revelation 21:10.
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Revelation 21:11–12.
God promised Abraham land. He marked off its boundaries in Genesis 15. This is the Promised Land. And after Jesus returns all the Hebrew people will occupy this land and there will be no Gentiles within its borders.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:
And all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein:
And in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 14:21.
The surviving Gentiles will occupy the land surrounding Israel and let's take a look at what is prophesied for them:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.
Remember, all the Jewish/Hebrews are living in the land promised them by God. Non-Hebrew Gentiles surround them.
I do not make distinction between the Law and Commands of God other than written and verbal. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. And there was Law in the Garden. It was a Command:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.
Do you see the "Thou shalt not"? The existence of this command proves the man and woman were sinners BEFORE their act of sin, for sin comes from sinners:
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.
This is what Saul said:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:7–11.
Let's apply verse 7 to Adam.
ADAM: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known disobedience, except the law had said, Thou shalt not 'eat of it [the tree.]'.
The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. Same thing.
See above.
Textbook response. I used to believe this, too.
Christ was given dominion over creation, not man. The image of God is not "from the earth, earthy man. It is Christ:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15.
When we become born-again, we are conformed into the image of Christ, NOT Adam. There is no better image of a Father than a Son. Man was not given dominion over creation, but Christ was. Can man command fish to fill a net like Jesus can and did? Nope. Christ is Head. Christ is First fruits.
If Adam and the woman had not disobeyed God and ate from the Tree they would have still died - in time, for they possessed no Deific Attributes of God. They were not holy, they were not righteous, they were not sinless. All these are the Nature and Attributes of God. Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God; there is NONE like Him; and He gives His glory to NO ONE." Thus, the man and woman were created "sinful" or as the word is defined, "missing the mark."
What is that mark missed?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. THIS is how in Isaiah 45:7 God says "I create evil" by virtue of the fact of man's creation.
Adam and the woman were sinners BEFORE the Tree was eaten. Remember, "thou shalt not"?
There is no such thing as a "Fall." Adam and the woman were sinners before the Tree which is why they sinned because sin comes from sinners. Sin does not come from 'holy.' The last Adam proved this. Christ was sinless, Christ was holy, Christ was righteous and He did NOT sin. But the man and woman did thus proving they were sinners before they ate from the Tree. They were liars.
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.
They added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it."
Adam and the woman were sinners which is why they sinned.
They sinned because they were sinners; they are not sinners because they sinned. The first position upholds the Doctrine of Imputation. The second one does not.
The high priest said the same thing when slaying the sacrificial animal. Jesus as High Priest said the same thing. Those He asked the Father to forgive were those for whom He died - the children of Israel. ONLY.
Christ said He did not come to destroy the Law, for any change would destroy the Law. He came to fulfill the Law. And fulfill it He did.
Gentiles were NEVER under the Law. The Mosaic Covenant was between the God of Abraham and the children of Israel. If Christ were to add Gentiles as part of His atonement, then Christ changed the Law thus destroying it and Christ is a liar (Proverbs 30:6.) Is that what you teach?
Israel did not reject their Messiah. There were thousands in Jerusalem and maybe hundreds witnessed the crucifixion, but millions of Jews (Diaspora) who lived in Gentile lands knew nothing of Jesus arrival. How can they reject someone they never heard about???
Do you know what "justification" is? It's an act of God in which He declares someone "Not Guilty!" But "Not Guilty!" of what?? "Not Guilty!" of breaking the Law, that's what. The burden the apostles and elders did not want to put upon the mixed heritage Hebrews was to be circumcised in the flesh when God had already circumcised their 'hearts.'
Joel prophesied God would send His Spirit to Israel. That's why He is called the "Holy Spirit of Promise" (Acts 2.) God NEVER promised His Spirit to Gentiles. There is no Scripture that says He did.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people [Israel] shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:27–28.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:22–28.
None of this was promised to Gentiles. NONE.
Saul is talking about Isaac to whom the Abraham promises were inherited. Ishmael and Esau were Abraham's seed, but the promise passed to Isaac and then Jacob.
That's right. But also know that faith was never a requirement of the Abrahamic Covenant nor the Mosaic Covenant nor the New Covenant.
That stone was Jesus, and the stumbling was their inability to reconcile how their Messiah, Lord, and King died/hung on a tree (cross.)
Jesus initiated by the New Covenant at the last Passover. The New Covenant came into being with the advent of the Holy Spirit on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest (ca. AD 34.) Again, God promised His Spirit to Israel. He never promised Gentiles anything. As a matter of fact this is what God thinks of Gentiles:
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
The Abrahamic Covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is between the God of Abraham and the children of Israel.
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.
My challenge to you is to show me a passage of Scripture where God makes covenant with Gentiles. While you're trying to find that passage post it here and tell me his name.
I used to believe as you do now. But God began to show me things, and I was honest with Scripture. I looked for a God-Gentile covenant but couldn't find one. I looked for Scripture in which God promised His Spirit to Gentiles and couldn't find one. You don't know it, but you are infected by Constantinian Gentile theology. The Hebrew Scripture from Genesis to Revelation were all authored by Hebrews, for Hebrews. True, Biblical Christianity is moored to the Hebrew people through their covenants with God. The Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets are a history of the Hebrew people before Christ, and the New Covenant writings are a history of the Hebrew people after Christ. The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. Gentiles are guilty of inheritance theft. But they won't succeed because the truth will come out in time. When the two witnesses of Revelation appear, they will set Israel straight and then Gentiles will know they've been wrong all these centuries. And Gentiles will kill these two witnesses during the Great Tribulation. God will open their eyes, and they will come to accept the truth from Scripture. It will be Gentiles God is going to cause to war against Israel, and it will seem they will succeed in destroying Israel. Then Christ appears and fights alongside Israel and He defeats God's enemies, and Israel's enemies. Consider this:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.
Romans 9:4–5.
Verse four describes the totality of salvation. None of these above are ever said about Gentiles.
None.
Incorrect. The understanding is the rest of the world, since Greek was the language of the rest of the world. The other possible meaning are those who live in Greece. (I'm just using what the dictionary gives).
That is another provable lie. The book of Galatians was written to a Gentile church, and was dealing with the influences of the Juadaizers who were telling them that they had to put themselves under the Law in order to become Christians, which Paul is basically saying would damn them to hell forever.
Wow...um okay. You can go on living in your delusional world. Paul had a companion who was not a hellenized Jew, but was a Gentile, and Paul speaks about him when speaking of the circumcision of the Gentiles. He says that this person did not fell compelled to be circumcised.
Another lie.
That doesn't matter.
Paul brought his gospel to the Jewish church leadership to ensure that there were no issues with his gospel. They did not make any changes to his gospel, not seeing a need. (Basically, he brought the true gospel.) That is why Paul can say that if anyone brings any other gospel, they are damned to hell. (The meaning of anathema.)
No, no it is not.
This speaks of those Jews who are in the church, and thus feel/taste of God's blessings upon the church, but do not accept Jesus as Messiah. If they walk away, rejecting fully Christ, there is no way to renew them again to repentance. God will not sacrifice Jesus again for them. These are the true apostates.
Again, this was for the Gentiles, not for Jews.
I see you never bothered to read Galatians.
"25 `And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we have written, having given judgment, that they observe no such thing, except to keep themselves both from idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.'"
You really do need to open your eyes to the truth. You ignore so much of scripture.
"3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,"
It is all new in Revelation 21. Yes, you have the New Jerusalem, but it is coming down to what? A new Earth.
You ignore the prophecies of Zechariah, among other things.
There is so much wrong above I just can't write anymore. If the Hellenized Jews are Jews, then they aren't "Gentiles". The other Jews may not have liked them, but they are still Jews. This is not who Peter was speaking of when he spoke of Cornelius and the Gentiles there. In fact, in vision, God clearly shows that in the past they were "unclean". He also said that it was forbidden for him to be seen with them. Peter spoke of the Gentiles he went to as uncircumcised. My quick search shows that hellenistic Jews were circumcised though they sought to reverse the process in places where nakedness was practiced. So Peter was going to actual Gentiles.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The Greek word used in Romans 1:16 translated "Greek" is "Hellēn" which refers to Hellenized Jews who grew up as Gentile in Gentile lands who are those Jews of millions that did not return with a "remnant" of Jews back to Israel after Cyrus gave them permission to return to Israel in 522 BC. Several thousands of Jews (mostly of the two southern kingdom tribes of Judah and Benjamin) against millions of Jews that did not return but remained in Gentile lands is a very small minority when taking all Jews alive at the time as a whole. But many do make this mistake and you are one of them. If Saul wanted to refer to Gentiles he would have used the Greek word "ethnos", but he didn't. He used "Hellen."
If you want to take "Hellen" as Greek people, what about Italians, or Arabs, or Aramaeans/Syriacs, or Egyptians, or Parthians or Medes, or Anatolians, or Britons, of Gaelians, Germanics, or Thracians, or Scythians? Why would Saul only refer to Greeks as the only people next to Jews to whom the gospel - you say - is sent to? No, Saul is referring to Hellenized Jews for the sole reason that as rabbi and Pharisee he would know as having covenant with God. And he would lose all credibility among Jews and Jewish Christians if he were to try to enjoin non-Hebrew Gentiles into any of the covenants God made with the Hebrew people. About 29-35 generations of Jews grew up and died while they assimilated among Gentiles in Gentile lands, and since the covenants was between God and the Hebrew people God made promise to send Israel's Deliverer to Israel because of His promises to do so (Deut. 18:15, 18.)
God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. Your interpretation that non-Hebrew Gentiles were saved makes God and Christ a liar. Christ did not come to destroy the Law and any change in the Law would destroy the Law. Show me in the gospels Jesus traveling to Gentile lands and teaching Gentiles the Mosaic Laws. There were twelve Jews at the last Passover when Jesus said, "my blood] is given TO YOU" (the twelve Jews representing the twelve tribes of Israel.)
The Galatian letter as with all the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jews to and for other Jews. It is rich in Hebraic foundations, such as Emphasis on the Abrahamic Covenant, Focus on "The Law" (Torah), Circumcision as a Central Issue, Reference to "Works of the Law", Paul's Jewish Background as a Persuasive Tool, Zealous for the Traditions of My Fathers (Gal. 1:14), Knowledge of Old Testament Narratives, Understanding of Slavery to the Law, Warnings against Returning to "Weak and Worthless Elementary Principles", and The Specificity of the Judaizers' Arguments. Gentiles were outside the grace of God and hated the Jews. Both peoples lived in their own sphere, had their own religions, and there is no Scripture in the OT that says God made a salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. There's a reason Jesus said, "salvation is OF THE JEWS."
The prejudicial Jews called mixed heritage northern kingdom Jews "Samaritan" and not "Jew" with the same bias they called mixed heritage Hebrews of the two southern kingdom tribes "Gentile" and not Jew. Israel's Messiah was promised to Israel by God and when He came, He taught Jews from out of their Law. Timothy was mixed heritage. Luke was also of mixed heritage. These individuals are in Scripture because they have Abraham's DNA in their veins.
So, post Scripture that says God made a salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. Show me Scripture where a Hebrew prophet promises the Holy Spirit to non-Hebrew Gentiles. You are overlooking this fact. In order to prove your statements use Scripture and prove through Scri[pture God made salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles and tell me his name, and show me the Scripture where God promised His Spirit to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
This is what the New Covenant prophecy by Jeremiah says:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31.
You are adding to the Bible when you add non-Hebrew Gentiles. The New Covenant in Jesus' blood is a covenant between God of Abraham and Abraham's seed of twelve tribes. Israel represents the ten northern kingdom tribes, and Judah represents the two southern kingdom tribes. The New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Where are non-Hebrew Gentiles named or included in this covenant?
Jesus knows there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in neither the Abraham nor Mosaic Covenants. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in the New Covenant. When Assyria and Babylon conquered Israel and Judah, respectively, a great many Jews were taken captive. We're talking a couple million Jews. The definition of "remnant" is 5-10%. So, if there were about three million Jews who were taken captive back to Assyria and Babylon, and a remnant of Jews returned, then that's about one hundred to two hundred thousand of Jews that returned to Israel while the majority remained in Gentile lands. Jesus never left Israel. These two-three million Jews living in Gentile lands knew nothing about Jesus' arrival. Since God is the One to scatter the Jews and have them taken captive to Assyria and Babylon, it was important to send messengers to these Jews living outside Israel to herald the "good news" about Jesus Christ. What is that "good news"? Simply this: "God has kept His promise and sent [your] Deliverer." Why? Because that's where God scattered His people. And WHO did Jesus come to save? "His people", the Jews.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:21.
"His people" are the Hebrew people, NOT Gentiles. Gentiles are God's enemy.
In order to prove your argument that non-Hebrews can or are born-again just post the Scripture of a God-Gentile covenant and a prophecy or promise that God promised His Spirit to Gentiles.
It matters to God. For three and one-half years Jesus taught Jews ONLY. Jews that remained in Gentile lands by the millions knew nothing of Jesus. You can't ignore this. This is the reason Jesus sent His disciples to them in Acts 1, to let them know God has kept His promise to send Israel their Deliverer.
The "other" gospel Saul was referring was Judaism. The Greek words bear this out.
Actually, it is, but you've become infected with Constantinian Gentile theology, and it has blinded your eyes. I used to believe what you believe but I don't anymore. I let Scripture tell me what to believe, I don't tell Scripture what to say. Nor do I add to the Bible as you do.
All you have to do is show me Scripture that says God made a covenant with Gentiles and show me Scripture where God promised His Spirit to Gentiles.
The Church Jesus promised to build began with three thousand Jews at Pentecost. Acts 2:47 says God added to His Church daily such as should be saved. This means thousands of Jews everyday were being born-again daily. There is no "accept Jesus into your heart" in Scripture. That is a man-made teaching through misinterpreting Romans 10:9-10. And you also misunderstand Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4–8.
It refers to repentance, NOT salvation. Jewish Christians were being persecuted by Jews and many wanted to stop being persecuted and tried to return to Judaism, but God says it's impossible.
Post Scripture where God makes covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles and show me Scripture God promising His Spirit to non-Hebrew Gentiles. That's all you got to do.
Jews called mixed heritage Hebrews or the northern kingdom tribes "Samaritan" and not Jew the same that Jews called mixed heritage Hebrew of the southern kingdom tribes "Gentile" and not Jew.
But if they have Abraham's DNA in their veins then they are heirs to the promises.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:28–29.
Saul wrote to Jewish Christians in the Galatian region who were concerned with their status of being Christ's followers and how that affected their being heirs to the Abraham promises. Saul sets them straight. If you are Abraham's seed and you are Christ's, then you are still an heir of those promises.
The Law, Psalms, and the Prophets records God dealing with the Hebrew people. Thirty-nine "books" records God's dealing solely with this people. Where is there record of God's dealing with non-Hebrew Gentiles where salvation covenant is concerned?
If God made salvation covenant with non-Hebrews, then post Scripture stating this. While you're at it post Scripture in the OT God promising His Spirit to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
I looked it up again, and... no, no it doesn't. Here is the full entry:
Hellén: Greek
Original Word: Ἕλλην
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Hellén
Pronunciation: hel'-lane
Phonetic Spelling: (hel'-lane)
KJV: Gentile, Greek
NASB: Greeks, Greek
Word Origin: [from G1671 (Ἑλλάς - Greece)]
1. a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas
2. (by extension) a Greek-speaking person
3. (especially) a non-Jew, i.e. a Gentile
Gentile, Greek.
From Hellas; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew -- Gentile, Greek.
see GREEK Hellas
1672 Héllēn – an Hellene, i.e. a Greek. 1672/Hellēn ("Greek") originally referred to any native Greek and later became synonymous with any Greek-speaking person, i.e. anyone who followed Greek culture (and especially) spoke Greek.
And you can look at the above to see exactly what the word means. A Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas.
You have to read the definition above to see.
Hellenistic Jews were still Jews. Peter did not go to hellenistic Jews at Cornelius house. He went to the Gentiles whom God, by vision, said were no longer "unclean". Salvation has nothing to do with covenants, but is by grace through faith. It is universal in scope, though effectual only to those who believe in Christ. (John 3:16-17)
The Law covers all men. The Covenant is for Israel. Paul said without the Law there is no sin. Paul destroyed the Judaizers who were doing what you say you need to see Jesus do. The Law is death is what Paul said in Galatians. If you put yourself under the Law, you will die under the Law. Paul said the Law was a tutor that points to Christ. What did Jesus say to the Gentiles? He praised the faith of the Cushite woman, who understood what was to come. The Gentiles are the dogs under the table who also eat of what comes off the table (the gospel).
No. The Galatian church was a Gentile church. Paul's mission was to the Gentiles. He says so in Galatians actually. And it was written by Paul.
"Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- and all the brethren with me, to the assemblies of Galatia" (Galatians 1:1)
"15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,"
"7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel [d]to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been [e]to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship [f]to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, [g]James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right [h]hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised."
It is clear. Paul wrote to the Gentile church in Galatia. That is why he speaks to his past and of Judaism, whereas, if he was writing to Jews, they would already know.
What did God say to Abraham. "In thee all the nations of the world will be blessed." That is because salvation comes to the world from/through the Jews. That is why "salvation is of the Jews". (Of the Jews, not FOR the Jews.) It comes to the world by way of the Jews.
And the Samaritans have their own day of salvation in Acts. As did the Gentiles (actual Gentiles). God told Peter that the Gentiles were no longer off limits, and sent Peter to Cornelius to preach to the Gentiles there. The hellenized Jews were still Jews.
Galatians 3: "6 [j]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, [k]be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God [l]would justify the [m]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with [n]Abraham, the believer.
So while Gentiles don't have a covenant, by faith, they fall under the Abrahamic Covenant being blessed with Abraham.
Why a new covenant? The first covenant you have is with Abraham, and for Abraham it is non-conditional. God made the covenant, Abraham did not make the covenant. With that covenant, God said that the nations of the world will be blessed in Abraham. Not just the Jews, but all the nations of the world. The Mosaic Covenant gave the Law, and by following the Law, the Jews fall under the Abrahamic covenant. By not following the Law (which is what actually happened, they didn't follow the Law) they are not under the Abrahamic covenant. Once they violated the Mosaic Covenant it was over. Or was it. God will make a new covenant to replace the violated Mosaic covenant.
They are covered by the Abrahamic covenant by faith. That is what put Abraham himself under the Abrahamic covenant. That faith which was credited as righteousness. Not some covenant or law.
And what are the Jews, according to Paul in Ephesians?
"11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [m]by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might [n]make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, [o]by it having put to death the enmity.
Romans 11
"28 [j]From the standpoint of the gospel they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake, but [k]from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [The Jews] disobedience, 31 so these [the Jews] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Jews] also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all [Jews and Gentiles] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jews and Gentiles]."
The problem with you is that there is no need for a covenant. And in Acts, you can find the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, and Peter actually saying that if they hadn't, they would have refused to baptize the Gentiles. However, the Gentiles not only received the Holy Spirit as the apostles and Jews did, they spoke in tongues as the apostles and Jews did. So not only are the Gentiles also believers and born again, God showed that the there is One Spirit by which we approach God. There isn't a Holy Spirit for the Jews and a Holy Spirit for the Gentiles. One Spirit. And it is because they spoke in tongues that Peter received even more ammunition to basically dare any of the Jews who came with him to refuse the water (baptism) for these Gentile believers.
Salvation was first to the Jews. It is of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew. However, the Jews rejected, so the gospel went out to the Gentiles.
There is one gospel, and it is not a covenant or the Law. It is Christ and Christ crucified. Any "other" gospel is any gospel that denies Christ, Christ's death, that Christ did not come in the flesh, etc. Any who preach such a gospel God, through Paul, condemns to hell. You are preaching another gospel. You may wish to consider what God said through Paul. Your argument isn't with Paul, for Paul wrote what God moved Paul to write through the Holy Spirit.
So you yourself fell prey to another gospel. You added a lot to the Bible. You have gone beyond the plain writing of the gospel, and considering how you talk about what Paul wrote in Romans 9-11, you PROVE that you add to the Bible. Romans 9-11 is a treatise by Paul. He isn't questioning anything. He is explaining how things are.
No need. Our salvation is in Christ. You have another gospel, you are preaching another gospel, and Paul says as such, you are anathema.
You are correct. There is no "accept Jesus into your heart" in Scripture. That is Arminianism. Calvinism has no such thing. The way it went is that the gospel came first to the Jews at Pentecost. Then it went to the Gentiles with Cornelius, showing that Gentiles would also be a part of the church. It also went out to the disciples of John, who were inducted into the church. It also went to the Samaritans who were inducted into the church. All believers. The church is not Israel. The church is the body of Christ, and is made up of all peoples and nations who believe in Jesus and are born again for their belief/faith.
A quick explanation. Hebrews was basically written to three groups of Jews/Hebrews. 1. Believers. 2. Non-believers. 3. Fence sitters in danger of apostasy which is damnation to hell. These verses are for the so called fence sitters. They have been enlightened only, having heard the truth/gospel preached. They are in the church, and have such tasted (but not partaken/eaten/been fully immersed in) the heavenly gift, and by being around those who have the Holy Ghost, were partakers of it, and they have tasted (only) the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. They are outside. They have only tasted, and are only partakers. If they reject and fall away, there is no more sacrifice for them. There is no way to renew them again to repentance, that is, bring them to the place where they either accept and call Jesus Messiah/Lord, or reject. Once they reject, there is no way for them to come back. Those that bear thorns and briars are rejected, and their end is not to become fruit trees, and bring forth herbs, but to be burned. This speaks to those who MAY, but have not yet become apostate and thus forever separated from God. Someone said it is like Pharaoh. For the first number of plagues, Pharaoh hardened himself. For the rest, God hardened Pharaoh. It reached a point where God would no longer let Pharaoh change his mind, after rejecting God's call to free His people so many times. There comes a point where one has neglected so great a salvation so many times, that God has enough.
Repentance is to salvation. And this is not returning to Judaism. Judaism is the Law, and Paul in Galations said the Law is DEATH. Those who live under the law will die by the law. Grace will not save them for they have refused grace.
There is no need for a covenant. Salvation is through Christ. Salvation is only of the Jews. Jesus did not say salvation is FOR the Jews, but OF the Jews. It comes from them, however, the gospel message of salvation is for the world. Not all will accept, but only those whom the Father has foreordained/predestined by choice to be His adopted children.
That is not true. Those in Samaria were called Samaritans. Gentiles are uncirmcised, while Jews are circumcised. Paul was clear.
That isn't what God said. Those who are blessed by Abraham are those who are of the faith, as it is by faith that Abraham came to receive the covenant from God.
Exactly. In the church all are one. It doesn't matter who or what you are. Gentile, Jew, bond, free, male, female. In the church there is no distinction. All are one in Christ. What I don't understand is how you don't get it. If you are Christ's (not if you are under some covenant), then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. And that is by faith.
This was written to Gentiles, who were facing the Judaizers who would say you have to be circumcised, and you have to be under the Law in order to be saved. Paul is saying that there message is a message of DEATH, just like your message.
Again, there is no covenant for this. This isn't even the New Covenant with Israel. That new covenant is a covenant to replace the Mosaic Covenant that Israel violated. By violating that covenant they were not blessed by Abraham. They lost their right to the Abrahamic covenant. The new covenant restores them to that covenant.
No need for a covenant. Salvation is in Christ, not some covenant.
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