Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[DavidTree]

I am not sure I am following your comments here. Are you saying that Christ did not take on God's wrath on our behalf?
Rom 5:6-11 shows that we were saved from God's wrath by the sacrifice of Jesus. That wrath had to have gone somewhere.

Thank You for pointing us to Romans

For when we were still without strength, [d]in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

i see "wrath" but i do not see it being upon Christ in this passage

i AGREE with you = "That wrath had to have gone somewhere."

Which now gives us opportunity to SEE deeper as we evaluate the CLEAR as DAY "punishment" that Christ took on Himself for us.

TRUTH Challenge: God's punishment upon Christ vs God's wrath

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you denying the Son , the 2nd Person of the Trinity was not in Mary’s womb and only entered the infant child after she bore Him in the manger ?

God gives the breath of live at birth

Jesus left his heavenly abode and entered the body bore by mary at his birth

I do not see any scripture which would lead me to believe otherwise.

even if Jesus was present however. she still would not be the mother of God. God has no mother.

 

[civic]

God gives the breath of live at birth

Jesus left his heavenly abode and entered the body bore by mary at his birth

I do not see any scripture which would lead me to believe otherwise.

even if Jesus was present however. she still would not be the mother of God. God has no mother.

If you understood the 2 natures in Christ you would understand He is a Divine Person having a human nature. His person was in the womb where His human nature/ humanity came from

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos.

This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

 

[Eliada]

Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, and His grace is extended to all. His atoning sacrifice is in and of itself sufficient for the redemption of the whole world, and is intended for all by God the Father. The sacrifice of Christ is not the payment of a debt, nor is it a complete satisfaction of justice for sin. It is a Divinely- appointed condition which precedes the forgiveness of sin, just as the death of a lamb or a goat in the Mosaic economy.

Christ’s sufferings took the place of a penalty, so that His sufferings have the same effect in reconciling God to man, and procuring the forgiveness of sin, that the sinner’s endurance of the punishment due to his sins would have had. The sufferings of Christ were not a substituted penalty, but a substitute for a penalty.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If you understood the 2 natures in Christ you would understand He is a Divine Person having a human nature. His person was in the womb where His human nature/ humanity came from

I understood his Devine nature

You are not showing me any evidence he was 2 natures in the womb

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos.

I have no idea what any of this means

Jesus was fully God and fully man.

Mary is not the mother of God. she did not give birth to the divinity of the son. She gave birth to his body. God has no mother God always was

This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

I just listen ot the word of God brother. Again, I try not to argue or react to isms. (doctrines of me) I feel they have gotten the church so far in contention with itself. that it can not be united

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, and His grace is extended to all. His atoning sacrifice is in and of itself sufficient for the redemption of the whole world, and is intended for all by God the Father. The sacrifice of Christ is not the payment of a debt, nor is it a complete satisfaction of justice for sin. It is a Divinely- appointed condition which precedes the forgiveness of sin, just as the death of a lamb or a goat in the Mosaic economy.

Christ’s sufferings took the place of a penalty, so that His sufferings have the same effect in reconciling God to man, and procuring the forgiveness of sin, that the sinner’s endurance of the punishment due to his sins would have had. The sufferings of Christ were not a substituted penalty, but a substitute for a penalty.

if justice is not satisfied. how can righteousness be applied?

 

[Doug Brents]

Thank You for pointing us to Romans

For when we were still without strength, [d]in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

i see "wrath" but i do not see it being upon Christ in this passage

i AGREE with you = "That wrath had to have gone somewhere."

Which now gives us opportunity to SEE deeper as we evaluate the CLEAR as DAY "punishment" that Christ took on Himself for us.

TRUTH Challenge: God's punishment upon Christ vs God's wrath

2 Cor 5:21 - Christ became sin for us (in our place). He literally took on our sin.
Rom 1:8 - God's wrath is against sin, unrighteousness, and ungodliness.
Christ became sin, so Christ became the object of God's wrath against that sin.

 

[Eliada]

if justice is not satisfied. how can righteousness be applied?

Read the post, it's right there.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Read the post, it's right there.

I read it

and I disagree with it

which is why I asked you the question I did

 

[DavidTree]

2 Cor 5:21 - Christ became sin for us (in our place). He literally took on our sin.
Rom 1:8 - God's wrath is against sin, unrighteousness, and ungodliness.
Christ became sin, so Christ became the object of God's wrath against that sin.

Seems logical.

But can we find in scripture a clear declaration that God's wrath was upon Christ.

To the credit of @civic
We MUST find the exact usage of the word "wrath" applied to Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

If you understood the 2 natures in Christ you would understand He is a Divine Person having a human nature. His person was in the womb where His human nature/ humanity came from

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos.

This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

His person was in the womb where His human nature/ humanity came from

His Person is Who HE always was from Eternity, which includes His Spirit and Soul.

His humanity is not like ours in that we are the reproduction of a earthly father and a earthly mother = humanity.

HE experienced coming into this world in a human body as a 'man'.

Pay careful attention to word usage here by the Holy Spirit

5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Eliada]

I read it

and I disagree with it

which is why I asked you the question I did

Since you disagree nothing I post will change that.

 

[DavidTree]

Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, and His grace is extended to all. His atoning sacrifice is in and of itself sufficient for the redemption of the whole world, and is intended for all by God the Father. The sacrifice of Christ is not the payment of a debt, nor is it a complete satisfaction of justice for sin. It is a Divinely- appointed condition which precedes the forgiveness of sin, just as the death of a lamb or a goat in the Mosaic economy.

Christ’s sufferings took the place of a penalty, so that His sufferings have the same effect in reconciling God to man, and procuring the forgiveness of sin, that the sinner’s endurance of the punishment due to his sins would have had. The sufferings of Christ were not a substituted penalty, but a substitute for a penalty.

The sacrifice of Christ is not the payment of a debt, nor is it a complete satisfaction of justice for sin.

Your statement that i highlighted is not from God's Word.

The Lord Jesus Christ directly connects "our debts" to sin.

In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen

“There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both.
Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”

Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”

And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.
You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil.
Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

 

[civic]

His Person is Who HE always was from Eternity, which includes His Spirit and Soul.

His humanity is not like ours in that we are the reproduction of a earthly father and a earthly mother = humanity.

HE experienced coming into this world in a human body as a 'man'.

Pay careful attention to word usage here by the Holy Spirit

5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

He was fully God in the womb.

By your reasoning we shouldn’t believe in the Trinity either since the word is not in the Bible and the doctrine came into being by man several centuries after the NT was written

 

[Doug Brents]

Seems logical.

But can we find in scripture a clear declaration that God's wrath was upon Christ.

To the credit of @civic
We MUST find the exact usage of the word "wrath" applied to Christ.

I don't believe we do have to find a passage that states "God's wrath on Christ", or any such thing. God's wrath is against sin; all sin, all the time, in every form. And Christ became sin; the sin of all people of all time, in every form. So the full weight of God's wrath was directed and focused on Christ alone.

 

[DavidTree]

He was fully God in the womb.

By your reasoning we shouldn’t believe in the Trinity either since the word is not in the Bible and the doctrine came into being by man several centuries after the NT was written

He was fully God in the womb.

Agree = HE is fully God from Eternity.

Did HE leave anything of His being God behind in Heaven???
This is a good question since HE prayed for restorative Glory with the FATHER in John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We can safely say that there was some type of "glory" that the WORD left behind in the FATHER

i do believe the Truth of Genesis/Gospel/Apostles/Revelation =
Genesis:
Elohim/Plural
Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness
IAM the Elohim of: Elohenu Abraham Elohenu Isaac Elohenu Jacob = Elohenu is "gods/plural" yet THEY are Echad/One

Gospel: FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Apsotles: FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Revelation:
HOLY HOLY HOLY
Lord God Almighty
Who Was Who Is Who Is to Come

 

[civic]

Agree = HE is fully God from Eternity.

Did HE leave anything of His being God behind in Heaven???
This is a good question since HE prayed for restorative Glory with the FATHER in John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We can safely say that there was some type of "glory" that the WORD left behind in the FATHER

i do believe the Truth of Genesis/Gospel/Apostles/Revelation =
Genesis:
Elohim/Plural
Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness
IAM the Elohim of: Elohenu Abraham Elohenu Isaac Elohenu Jacob = Elohenu is "gods/plural" yet THEY are Echad/One

Gospel: FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Apsotles: FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Revelation:
HOLY HOLY HOLY
Lord God Almighty
Who Was Who Is Who Is to Come

You have a baby in the womb who is impersonal , not a person. It’s an oxymoron

 

[DavidTree]

I don't believe we do have to find a passage that states "God's wrath on Christ", or any such thing. God's wrath is against sin; all sin, all the time, in every form. And Christ became sin; the sin of all people of all time, in every form. So the full weight of God's wrath was directed and focused on Christ alone.

Sure we do and we MUST, otherwise we can commit sin and fall into error.

Let's take our time in prayer and study in the holy Scriptures for the True and correct answer from God on this.

i know the answer is in the Holy Scriptures = i have seen it

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure we do and we MUST, otherwise we can commit sin and fall into error.

Let's take our time in prayer and study in the holy Scriptures for the True and correct answer from God on this.

i know the answer is in the Holy Scriptures = i have seen it

As you wish.

 

[DavidTree]

You have a baby in the womb who is impersonal , not a person. It’s an oxymoron

i NEVER said that Brother

From my Post #291 = His Person is Who HE always was from Eternity, which includes His Spirit and Soul.

the Holy Spirit Says: John 1:14
And the Word(Person) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word that was God, was not the only begotten Son BEFORE He came to earth.

The phrase "only Begotten of the FATHER" only pertains to His Coming into the world as a man thru Mary.