Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Your right,
He stayed in heaven until he was born
His diety never changed
YOU have yet to show why or scripturally he enteres mary's womb the moment she concieved.
The HS toughed the seed not the son,
Why we naturally HATE penal substitution
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
He stayed in heaven until he was born
His diety never changed
YOU have yet to show why or scripturally he enteres mary's womb the moment she concieved.
The HS toughed the seed not the son,
civic
Active Member
No He was conceived in the womb as a baby.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
No,
he was conceiver in the womb as a 1 cell fetus, that grew into a baby.
again, why are you fighting this what purpose does it serve. to prove Mary is the mother of God?
civic
Active Member
Nope He is a Divine Person. That’s the Incarnation at its beginning, in the womb.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Conception begins when an egg and sperm
Comes together and a single cell is formed. That cell divides. And eventually DNA takes over and individual cells are made as God designed. That fetus relies in its mother because it has no ability to sustain life.
That fetus was not a triune God
civic
Active Member
This sounds very” gnostic “ just as an fyi
DavidTree
Active Member
Well, i am not a 'trinatarian' only because = that word is not in scripture
As you and i know = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are THREE and THEY are ONE
Thank You for pointing us to Romans
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
i see "wrath" but i do not see it being upon Christ in this passage
i AGREE with you = "That wrath had to have gone somewhere."
Which now gives us opportunity to SEE deeper as we evaluate the CLEAR as DAY "punishment" that Christ took on Himself for us.
@Eternally-Grateful = TRUTH Challenge: God's punishment upon Christ vs God's wrath
The answer is in the Holy Scriptures and let's DIG into the Treasure of Truth
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synergy
Active Member
It is not ridiculous when James wrote "the Faith" in the Greek. It makes perfect sense exactly as he wrote it in the Greek. It makes you sound ridiculous to question James as to how he wrote that sentence.
False. The promise is always eternal. I never said anything to the contrary.
What you fail to see is that eternal.life is the exclusive property of the Holy Spirit. With the gift of the Holy Spirit that person has eternal life. Without the gift, no one has eternal life. That proves that our eternal.life is conditional on abiding to the eternal promise/gift. You have failed to prove your false dichotomy.
Where is this "once" and done (discontinuous) verse of yours?
I do take James at his word in James 2:14. Why don't you?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
The truth of science sounds gnostic? I am just giving the medical defenition of what happens at conception. Do you think God entered that cell?
I ask again what are you trying to defend? Mary being mother of God. I believe Jesus was man and God. Mary gave birth to a man who God then became the sole of that body
That’s not gnostic.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
See here you go
The faith is a word
The question is what is the faith
The faith points back to the faith the people James spoke to said they had. The dead faith. I guess you think dead faith saves.
The promise is not eternal the life is.
It’s call eternal life not eternal promise
What you fail to grasp is the gift was given. Whoever believes will NEVER perish and will LIVE FOREVER which is the defenition of eternal life
2 things the believer has in their posession
1 they will never die
2 they will live forever
No ut is conditional on receiving the gift
John 1 John 3 John 4 John 5 John 6 make this clear
I was saved by grace
Your saved by works
That’s what separates us
I have eternal life. You have conditional life
Again you just fought in interpreting words right yet here you are misinterpreting words don’t mock a Calvinist when your doing the same thing
I do
I also take home to agree and not contradict Paul in Roman’s 4. Why don’t you?
civic
Active Member
I’m defending the Incarnation when God became human. It began in the womb of Mary.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Or it happened at birth
Reality is neither of us can prove our point literally so it’s a moot point. As long as your not defending the Catholic mother of God doctrine
civic
Active Member
Nope
Matthew 1:18- This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Micah 5:2-3
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel—One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity. / Therefore Israel will be abandoned until she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of His brothers will return to the children of Israel
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Yes pregnant just as I stated. The egg was fertilized by the HS
THat does not prove Jesus entered the fetus
civic
Active Member
You are denying a core tenant of Christianity- the Virgin Birth.
The doctrine of the virgin birth teaches that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. That is, when Mary conceived Jesus, she had never had sexual intercourse. Jesus’ birth, therefore, was truly miraculous. The virgin birth of Jesus is a crucially important doctrine and one that the Bible plainly teaches in Matthew 1:23 and Luke 1:27, 34.
Let’s look at how Scripture describes the virgin birth. The angel Gabriel visits the Virgin Mary to bring her the news that she would be the mother of the Messiah. Mary asks, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” (Luke 1:34, ESV). Gabriel’s reply indicates the miraculous nature of the conception: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35). The angel points not to any human act but to the Holy Spirit and the power of God as the agency of Jesus’ birth. Jesus would properly be called the Son of God.
Gabriel later repeats the news to Joseph, betrothed to be married to Mary: “What is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20). Joseph needed this information because, “before they came together, [Mary] was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18). Accepting God’s word on the matter, Joseph proceeded to take Mary as his wife, but she remained a virgin until after Jesus was born: “He did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son” (Matthew 1:25).
The gospel writers are judicious in their wording to maintain the doctrine of the virgin birth. In his genealogy of Jesus, Luke mentions that Jesus was “the son (as was supposed) of Joseph” (Luke 3:23, ESV). In his genealogy, Matthew carefully avoids calling Joseph the father of Jesus; rather, he speaks of “Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah” (Matthew 1:16).
The virgin birth of Jesus Christ was predicted in the Old Testament: “The Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14, quoted in Matthew 1:22). There is also a possible allusion to the virgin birth in Genesis 3:15, which says that the “seed” of “the woman” would destroy the serpent.
The Bible teaches the preexistence of the eternal Son of God. In Isaiah 9:6, the child who is “born” is also the son who is “given.” In like manner, Galatians 4:4 also teaches the preexistence and virgin birth of Christ: “God sent His Son, born of a woman.” The virgin birth is important because that was the means by which “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14). The incarnation is when the eternal Son of God took on human flesh; without losing any of His divine nature, He added a human nature. That miraculous, history-changing event took place in the Virgin Mary’s womb.
In the virgin birth, the immaterial (the Spirit) and the material (Mary’s womb) were both involved. Just as, at creation, “the earth was formless and empty” and dark (Genesis 1:2), Mary’s womb was an empty, barren place. And just as, at creation, “the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters” (Genesis 1:2), the Spirit of God came upon Mary (Luke 1:35). Only God can make something out of nothing; only God could perform the miracles of creation, the incarnation, and the virgin birth.
The virgin birth is important in that it preserves the truth that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time. His physical body He received from Mary as her biological child. But His eternal, holy nature was His from all eternity past (see John 6:69). Jesus had no sin nature (Hebrews 7:26) and therefore was able to be our perfect substitute (1 Peter 1:19), conquering sin and death once for all (Hebrews 10:10). Not only was He able to take away our sin, but He was tempted in every way that we are, yet without sin. Therefore, He is our perfect sacrifice and also able to empathize with our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:15). Our God miraculously became man to save us and graciously reveal His love for us.
The virgin birth of Jesus is an example of God’s gracious work on our behalf. God took the initiative—Mary was not looking to become pregnant—it was all God’s idea. Joseph had no role in the conception—his body was not involved—so the power had to come from God. In a similar way, our salvation is based solely on God’s initiative and God’s power—we did not seek God, but He sought us; and we did nothing to earn our salvation, but we rely on God’s power.
Unsurprisingly, Jesus’ enemies among His contemporaries denied His virgin birth. They went so far as to publicly accuse Jesus of being a Samaritan, i.e., a person of mixed race (John 8:48). Those today who would deny the virgin birth contradict the clear teaching of Scripture, call into question other miracles recorded in the Bible, and open the door to a denial of Christ’s full deity or His full humanity.got?
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
I tagged you in a new thread since this one is about the doctrine of PSA not the Virgin Birth.
see below
DavidTree
Active Member
DavidTree
Active Member
Good idea.I tagged you in a new thread since this one is about the doctrine of PSA not the Virgin Birth.
see below
synergy
Active Member
What is in our possession is the Holy Spirit and it is He who gives us eternal life. It is the Holy Spirit and not your idea/belief of eternal life that is the source of eternal life. You fail to understand that eternal life is a property of the Holy Spirit and not an intrinsic property of yours based on your idea/belief of eternal life.
What separates us is that you continue to misrepresent me.
Of course we are saved by grace. You misrepresent me when you imply that I am against that. Your desperation shows because you're hopping into another topic (grace) hoping to neutralize James 2:24. You fail to understand that God's Grace is all inclusive and contains everything God granted us such as minds, volition, bodies with which we perform good works, works that God Himself preordained.
You also misrepresent me by stating that I believe that we are saved by works. I never said that.
Besides all those misrepresentations, you ran away from offering any verse that supports your "once" and done (discontinuous) belief. That's exactly what seperates the two of us.
Your continous attempt to rewrite James' words of "the Faith" to "that Faith" proves otherwise. You are in fact misrepresenting James here when you do that.
Nope. James is talking about good works whereas Paul was talking about works of the Law in that part of Romans. Your continous failure to distinguish between good works and works of the Law is on you.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Thats not the question James asked
He asked “If someone claimed to have faith. And does not have works. Can THEY faith save them
I guess in your view. Yes, it can
Yet here we are with the same argument
See. You did the very thing you keep doing
Your trying to make James 2 contradict Pauls letters..
Yet here you are defending a grace plus works justification.
lol. I offered it many times.
But hey
I gave these verses to @GodsGrace she would not respond. Maybe you will?
Show me works in any of these gospel passages.
then paul is a liar
Jesus is a liar
I might as well throw my bible out. I can nto trust it.
John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)
John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)
John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)
John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)
John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)
John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)
EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)
eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)
rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)
rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)
Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)
2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)
Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.
I am not rewriting, I am forcing the word to form my belief system, not using my belief system to interpret the word.
THE FAITH points back to the faith. THEM are those who claimed to have faith.
Not the rest of the world.
No,Paul is talking about good works..
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