Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[Eternally-Grateful]

My approach is to defend the English & Greek languages when it comes to the word of God.

then defend the english language

All means all

world means world

nothing more needs to be said, when you add somethign to it (like they are all universalists) youhave just killed your argument, because you have falsly accused them

I will not accept blatant word redefinitions like "all" to "elect" or "the Faith" to "that Faith". You seem ok with others or even you doing that. I'm not. You have your approach and I have mine.

If everyone is given the license to alter meanings of words to whatever they fancy then anything goes. No matter how many people fall into a particular word redefinition, we should not just "understand" them and move on. Languages are precious and they should never be warped into conforming to one's subjective inclinations.

I do not either and we should not

but we do not have to make accusations to support the truth.. that does not help you it does not help them it helps no one

You took issue with my usage of universalism and that's fine. I stopped using that word and became more precise in my words. That's because I value words and their common usage. Do I see the same appreciation of words from calvinists? Unfortunately not. Do I just accept that and move on? I cannot in good conscience do that. If someone is on the road to destruction do you just understand them and move on? You might but not me.

if they are doing it to make a false accusation I would be against them also and call them out.

Just like I do those who try to use license to sin in the OSAS argument

while some may use it. it does not mean everyone does. hence for those who do not use it that way it is a false accusation. When people use it as an argument, they destroy their argument, and same thing hap[pens. communication ceases to be even a possibility

I seriously believe that at least half of all heresies would immediately evaporate if people would just practice correct English language grammatical comprehension. For us not to defend the English language is a great disservice to the Gospel.

yes I agree

like the word eternal. to make it mean eternal. and not conditional.

or the words never (as in never die) to mean never die. and not mean MAY never die..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is a scandal - who would do such a thing? lol

people do it all the time

 

[DavidTree]

We see it all the time with PSA supported since wrath is never used with Jesus as the recipient they change the meaning and or use a passage without wrath claiming its wrath with the doctrine of PSA.

Correct
i could not find a "wrath' scripture placed upon Christ.

This does not negate what the Scripture plainly declares in Isaiah = HE bare our "punishment"

PSA is truth according to Scripture = HE took our place on the cross = by His Stripes we are Healed.

PSA is not truth according to 'wrath'.

4Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11[r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[DavidTree]

he who believes is not condemned

he who does not believe is condemned already.

what does this have to do with gods coomands?

You just mentioned it = "he who believes not is condemned already"

WHY are people "condemned already" for unbelief???

 

[civic]

Correct
i could not find a "wrath' scripture placed upon Christ.

This does not negate what the Scripture plainly declares in Isaiah = HE bare our "punishment"

PSA is truth according to Scripture = HE took our place on the cross = by His Stripes we are Healed.

PSA is not truth according to 'wrath'.

4Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11[r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

He was punished but not by God, but by man.

 

[DavidTree]

He was punished but not by God, but by man.

Why not just accept "It is written" ???

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

 

[civic]

Why not just accept "It is written" ???

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

It says “ we “ esteemed him stricken by God

Isaiah 53:10- Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

 

[DavidTree]

It says “ we “ esteemed him stricken by God

Isaiah 53:10- Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

YES , we do, because God said so!!!

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

 

[DavidTree]

Yet God was in her womb for 9 months and Jesus has Mary's DNA.

and..........?

 

[civic]

and..........?

So who is she the mother of ?

 

[DavidTree]

So who is she the mother of ?

Simple
a.) Who created Mary???
b.) Who gave 'light' to Mary???
c.) Who SAVED Mary from her sins???

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men

Therefore, when He/Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You have prepared for Me.

Let's SEE if the above statement is TRUE

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:14

But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You have prepared for Me.

And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;

 

[synergy]

then defend the english language

All means all

world means world

I've been doing that with the Greek language also and people like you have no 2nd thoughts about redefining "the faith" (in the Greek) to "that faith". You are in the same boat as calvinists with your redefinitions.

yes I agree

like the word eternal. to make it mean eternal. and not conditional.

or the words never (as in never die) to mean never die. and not mean MAY never die..

You are presenting a false dichotomy. Something can be both eternal and conditional at the same time. The gift of the Holy Spirit is an eternal gift in and also of itself and also it is conditional on our belief in Christ. So stop with the false dichotomies and people will take you more seriously

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Simple
a.) Who created Mary???
b.) Who gave 'light' to Mary???
c.) Who SAVED Mary from her sins???

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men

Therefore, when He/Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You have prepared for Me.

Let's SEE if the above statement is TRUE

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:14

But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You have prepared for Me.

And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;

amen

Mary gave birth to Jesus human flesh

Jesus (God) entered that flesh at birth

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I've been doing that with the Greek language also and people like you have no 2nd thoughts about redefining "the faith" (in the Greek) to "that faith". You are in the same boat as calvinists with your redefinitions.

I did not redefine anything, in the text. the word "the faith" points back to the faith that james said they claimed they had. Not the faith that saves.

Its rediculous to say James would ask such a question is can "the faith" save if it was not the claimed faith the people had. nor does it fit the passage

You are presenting a false dichotomy. Something can be both eternal and conditional at the same time. The gift of the Holy Spirit is an eternal gift in and also of itself and also it is conditional on our belief in Christ. So stop with the false dichotomies and people will take you more seriously

No. I jus tput it in contrext.

the moment a person believes (the condition) the promise that is eternal is given

the condition was already met. not if the condition must continue. then God would call it conditional not eternal

same with the word never. Once a person believes, they will never die

You scream calvinists do not take a word literally. yet you do not

 

[civic]

amen

Mary gave birth to Jesus human flesh

Jesus (God) entered that flesh at birth

No actually it was in the womb at conception

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No actually it was in the womb at conception

it was? where do you see this?

 

[civic]

it was? where do you see this?

Are you denying the Son , the 2nd Person of the Trinity was not in Mary’s womb and only entered the infant child after she bore Him in the manger ?

 

[DavidTree]

He was punished but not by God, but by man.

my Brother in Christ @civic

In addition to Isaiah chapter 53 the words of Christ give us the Final Say = Matthew 16:21-24

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!
You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

SHALOM

 

[DavidTree]

Are you denying the Son , the 2nd Person of the Trinity was not in Mary’s womb and only entered the infant child after she bore Him in the manger ?

Do we have definitive scripture that declares at what moment "the Word that was God" entered the "body prepared for Him"?

This is not a doctrine that determines our Salvation.

At first glance it is easy to assume that it occurred the moment the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

The MOST IMPORTANT Doctrine is the Prophecy of Psalm 40:6 which is confirmed in Hebrews 10:5

 

[Doug Brents]

Correct
i could not find a "wrath' scripture placed upon Christ.

This does not negate what the Scripture plainly declares in Isaiah = HE bare our "punishment"

PSA is truth according to Scripture = HE took our place on the cross = by His Stripes we are Healed.

PSA is not truth according to 'wrath'.

We see it all the time with PSA supported since wrath is never used with Jesus as the recipient they change the meaning and or use a passage without wrath claiming its wrath with the doctrine of PSA.

I am not sure I am following your comments here. Are you saying that Christ did not take on God's wrath on our behalf?
Rom 5:6-11 shows that we were saved from God's wrath by the sacrifice of Jesus. That wrath had to have gone somewhere.