Why Christ is God, YHWH

civic said:
I have been off work since the end of August looking for a new job. I go in this afternoon to fill out my new hire paperwork and my employment begins on Dec 1.

My wife and I are planning to move to Ecuador late spring/ early summer as my son in law ( a pastor ) is going to church plant there with my daughter and our only grandkids. We will go down to help out, support and there are lots of ex patriots from the U.S. and Canada so I can still do the similar types of ministry there that I do here with home group bible studies and mens discipleship. We are going there for a week in February to check things out and then finalize out plans then I will retire from full time employment and go on social security. So thats the plan and I can do the forum from anywhere in the world. :)
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Sounds exciting!


Can you please think of an appropriate title for this debate we would like to do?
 
Administrator said:
@Fred @civic

All I need is the title and I'll set it up;)
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I offered this: "Jesus and the Father are the same Person (contra Trinitarianism)" from post 59.

101G is okay with this then that would be great.

I was hoping at least 5 responses by both him and I. Him then me, then him, etc...
I would also request that at the end of each response (except the last one) that up to 5 questions can be asked and they must be answered by the other party in their very next response.


Are there rules for this debate such as:
1. Word limits per response
2. A time the other part must respond by
 
Fred said:
I offered this: "Jesus and the Father are the same Person (contra Trinitarianism)" from post 59.

101G is okay with this then that would be great.

I was hoping at least 5 responses by both him and I. Him then me, then him, etc...
I would also request that at the end of each response (except the last one) that up to 5 questions can be asked and they must be answered by the other party in their very next response.


Are there rules for this debate such as:
1. Word limits per response
2. A time the other part must respond by
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Okay I'll start setting it up with your suggestions in mind.

Something along these lines

1. Name and purpose of the debate, Along with who the participants will be.

2. Rules for the debate and introduce a moderator.

3. I'll talk things over with @civic and get his suggestions. Once we're all on the same page we will go live with it.

It does sound interesting and I'm looking forward to it.
 
Fred said:
Archaic word.
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Godhead, Archaic word? ........ just another word for DIVINE. but you quote others who used the term?
Fred said:
When Paul affirmed that he took extreme measures against the name of Jesus of Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 26:9) and tried to make Christians blaspheme (Acts 26:11) means he wanted them to renounce their belief that the Lord Jesus is God.
J. R. Lumby: ‘Name’ is constantly used in O.T. as the equivalent of ‘Godhead,’ and any Jew who heard the language of such a verse as this would understand that the Christians held Jesus to be a Divine Being...They were to be forced to renounce the belief in the divinity of Jesus. Cf. on blasphemy of the Divine Name, Leviticus 24:11-16 (The Acts of the Apostles, Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges) https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/cgt/acts-26.html
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now, the term itself.
Godhead: G2304 θεῖος theios (thei'-os) adj.
godlike (neuter as noun, divinity).
[from G2316]
KJV: divine, godhead
Root(s): G2316

AND THE ROOT OF THIS WORD SAYS IT ALL.
G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.
1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined).
2. (by Hebraism, especially with G3588) God, the Supreme Being, the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Yahweh by name.
3. (figuratively) a supreme magistrate (in the land).
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward)

that's no excuse. so we see you're not serious.

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Good day to you........

101G.
 
101G said:
Godhead, Archaic word? ........ just another word for DIVINE. but you quote others who used the term?

now, the term itself.
Godhead: G2304 θεῖος theios (thei'-os) adj.
godlike (neuter as noun, divinity).
[from G2316]
KJV: divine, godhead
Root(s): G2316

AND THE ROOT OF THIS WORD SAYS IT ALL.
G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.
1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined).
2. (by Hebraism, especially with G3588) God, the Supreme Being, the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Yahweh by name.
3. (figuratively) a supreme magistrate (in the land).
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward)
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Check the date when Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges was written.


101G said:
that's no excuse. so we see you're not serious.

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Good day to you........

101G.
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That's from the KJV. - And when was that written?



If you want to use it in the title of the debate then go ahead.

If you want to use this as a copout from the debate then it shows how pathetically weak your position is,
 
Administrator said:
Okay I'll start setting it up with your suggestions in mind.

Something along these lines

1. Name and purpose of the debate, Along with who the participants will be.

2. Rules for the debate and introduce a moderator.

3. I'll talk things over with @civic and get his suggestions. Once we're all on the same page we will go live with it.

It does sound interesting and I'm looking forward to it.
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Let's just do it. :). Each one will respond to the others post and directly address their post and ask a follow up question. Fred can start things out with his opening post then 101 can respond to his OP.
 
Fred said:
You are making the affirmation, so the title ought to reflect what you believe and intend to demonstrate.

The title will be "Jesus and the Father are the same Person (contra Trinitarianism)".

That is what you believe so that is what you will try to prove.
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JESUS is one person who holds both TITLES, "Father", and "Son"/ in a diversity of the ECHAD. but no difference either way it is Nontrinitarianism.

101G.
 
Fred said:
Archaic word.
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So?

The Greek says
Pleroma tes theotetos somotyikos

Fullness of the deity bodily.

Strong's has theotetos as

G2320
Original: θεότης

Transliteration: theotēs

Phonetic: theh-ot'-ace

Thayer Definition:

deity
the state of being God, Godhead
Origin: from G2316

TDNT entry: 04:59,3

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

Strong's Definition: From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

In this case, I wonder why an archaic term is a problem.
 
Titus said:
Jesus told the jews He was eternal. This is a claim of Deity. Only Deity is eternal.
Jesus' own description of Himself was never described as created having a beginning.

John 8:58,
- Jesus said to them, most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was I AM

Jews hearing what Jesus said, accuse Jesus of claiming Deity,
John 10:33,
- the jews answered Him saying, for a good work we do not stone You but for blasphemy and because You being a Man, make Yourself  God

Jesus deniers say this is a false allegation.
If it is then why did Jesus not correct them?

Instead Jesus doubled down on His claim,
John 10:36,
- do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into this world, You are blaspheming because I said I am the Son of God

Jesus deniers will claim the phrase Son of God is not a description of Deity.
Not in all cases certainly but here in John 10:36 absolutely no doubt it is parallel of John 10:36.
All Jews were "sons of God". But notice it was never illegal for a jew to say outloud "I am a son of God"
Yet guess what Jesus' "crime" was?

John 19:6-7,
- Pilate said to them, you take Jesus and crucify Him for I find no fault in Him
- the Jews answered Pilate, We have a law and according to our law He ought to die because He made Himself the Son of God

This proves Jesus twice proclaimed His Deity!!!

In John 8:58 I AM is present tense which in greek language indicates continuous action.
Therefore I AM would have no beginning, thus eliminating the theory Jesus was Gods first created.

Proof?
Exodus 3:14,
- and God said to Moses I AM WHO I AM and God said thus you shall tell the children of Israel I AM has sent me to you

Gods self assigned name of eternal existence is translated in the LXX(Greek OT) as
ego eimi ho on (I am the one who is)
Therefore Jesus' description of Himself as
ego eimi is a claim of Deity!!!

The Jews understood this and attempted to stone Jesus to death.

Jesus never described Himself as being created or not eternal!!!

Revelation 1:17; 2:8; 22:13
- do not be afraid I am the first and the last
- these things says the first and the last
- I am the Alpha and the Omega the Beginning and the End the First and the Last

Now some Jesus denier might try to claim that those descriptions have a beginning!!! God has no beginning.

Now look how God describes Himself in the Old Testament,
Isaiah 44:6 ; 48:12; 41:4
- I am the First and the Last besides Me there is no God
- I am He I am the First, I am the Last
- I the Lord am the first and with the last I am He

Now look how God describes Himself in the New Testament,
Revelation 1:8,
- I am the Alpha and the Omega the Beginning and the End says the Lord who is and who was and who is to come, the  Almighty

John 8:24,
- therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins
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Spot on !!!
 
Fred said:
Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
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did not JESUS the Person "MADE ALL THINGS?" or did the "LORD" MAKE ALL THINGS..... same one person. for the LORD said he made all things. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

the LORD was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF". so there was no one to go through. God said he was ALONE and BY HIMSELF, did God LIE? NO.

and the term THROUGH means BY as in BY HIMSEF, meaning no one present but him. see your dilemma now

101G.
 
101G said:
did not JESUS the Person "MADE ALL THINGS?" or did the "LORD" MAKE ALL THINGS..... same one person. for the LORD said he made all things. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

the LORD was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF". so there was no one to go through. God said he was ALONE and BY HIMSELF, did God LIE? NO.

and the term THROUGH means BY as in BY HIMSEF, meaning no one present but him. see your dilemma now

101G.
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When you figure out what plural pronouns mean then get back to me.
 
civic said:
2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if @Wrangler wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!
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Psalms 110: 1 The LORD , (The Jesus "of the Bible" called Him "the One True God") said unto "my Lord", ( The Jesus "of the Bible" ) Sit thou (Jesus "of the Bible") at "my (One True God's) "right hand", until I (One true God) make "thine" (The Jesus "of the Bible") enemies "thy" (Jesus of the Bibles) footstool.

2 The LORD (The One True God, according to the Jesus "of the bible") shall send the rod of thy (Jesus) strength out of Zion: rule thou (Jesus) in the midst of thine (Jesus') enemies.

3 Thy (Jesus') people (Who Jesus said the One True God gave to Him) shall be willing in the day of thy (Jesus') power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou (Jesus' People) hast the dew of thy (Jesus') youth.

4 The LORD (The One True God) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou (The Jesus "of the Bible") art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord (Jesus) at thy ( One True God's) right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his (One True God's) wrath.

Hope this helps.
 
Fred said:
When you figure out what plural pronouns mean then get back to me.
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(smile), LOL, why? you cannot handle the ones before your face now. so what you said is Just an excuse in not answering the question.

but no problem, the last time on this. if you want pronouns 101G will Give them to you. first pronoun, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." him is a pronoun .... correct, correct. one person here "WHO MADE ALL THINGS". now this pronoun. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" now, I is a pronoun correct, ONE PERSON. now common-sense kicks in. the one person in John 1:3 is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24. if not you have two creators who "MADE ALL THINGS". and if you say the One person in John 1:3 is a separate person from the person in Isaiah 44:24 then you're polythetic in your belief. Because the ONE PERSON in John 1:3 is "God", per John 1:1c. and the person in Isaiah 44:24 is God, the LORD. so now you cannot use the broad term "GOD" anymore to describe your trinity (persons). 101G by the word of God has taken away that crutch of an excuse.

so Fred read this post carefully. or stay in sin until the Lord Jesus returns and face his wrath. your choice, repent now before it's too late. 101G will not engage you anymore, for you have been told the truth by scripture.

be blessed, 101G hopes.

101G
 

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