Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[TedT]

This touches on both Molinism and the Problem of Evil, with explanations here:

Molinism:
Molinism differs from Calvinism by affirming that God grants salvation, but a person has the choice to freely accept it or reject it (but God knows that if the person were put in a particular situation he or she would not reject it).

Pretty sound Arminianism, eh? But in the end there are people in hell who could be saved if GOD would just wait for them to repent.

HE waits for some until they are 80-100 years old but others HE cuts short at 20 or 50 years or even in the womb? Why not wait and give everyone an equal chance to to accept HIM? Something is wrong with this theory....

We also know HE wants everyone to be saved and that
HIS perfect love is perfectly patient, 1 Cor 13:4 Berean Standard Bible, Love is patient, love is kind.
so once hell is full of those HE has condemned, why does not HIS perfect love wait for those in hell to give up their foolish rebellion and ask for salvation?

The only answer is that some are so immersed in their enslavement to the addiction of sin that they can't ever repent or ask HIM for salvation!

Everyone who can be saved from eternal hell will be saved from hell, not matter how they feel about it while enslaved to sin!!! Only those who CANNOT accept the gospel will be condemned, NOT those who don't want to accept the gospel at some time in their lives and died too son to repent.

The unforgivable Sin
From my Christian pov, the unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope, (NOT proof) that YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of HIM for confirmation.

As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot, passed over for election to salvation due to their choice.

They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definition: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.

2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:20+.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect and reprobate, flung into the earth.

 

[Dizerner]

how do you think they brainwash them? is it like a whole conspiracy?

The devil is in false doctrines, and they repeat forcefully over and over points that superficially seem to make sense, without allowing you to think thoroughly for yourself.

 

[Dizerner]

Why not X?

Why not is a dangerous question theologically.

It does not come humbly to the Bible and say "God tell me what is true and what to believe before and without me having to justify and understand it."

So it denies the doctrine of revelation, and insists the intellectual efforts of the mind is the powerful tool God gave us to discover truth, instead of the humility of the heart.

Why not just create me in heaven?

Why not just not create at all?

Why not just never do something I don't like?

Why not just never do something that confuses me?

Why not just give me no problems whatsoever?

Why not force me to just like God's ways?

Why not poof people instead of create hell?

Why not act directly instead of using angels?

Why not make the Bible a video film so that it's easier to pay attention to?

Why not put mathematical equations in Genesis and prove it's inspired that way?

Why not make me fart rainbows?

Why not write God's name YHWH in the stars?

Why not just skip evil altogether?

Why not make a creation that doesn't bother me in some way and give me moral and logical difficulties with your character?

Why not?


Behind the question "why not" is the implicit demand for God to meet our desires instead of find out his.

Behind the question "why not" is the subtle enthronement of self and dethroning of God.

Behind the question "why not" is the hidden attitude of pride that doesn't want to say "God help me understand you."

Behind the question "why not" is the resistance and rebellion to the way God has established things, instead of "God I accept you as you are."

Behind the question "why not" is the absolute refusal to worship God.


So let us pray fervently for God to expose our heart's motivations, have mercy on us, and reveal our hidden deceptions.

Then he will both reveal himself, and also grant us the grace to love and accept and worship him as he is.

 

[GeneZ]

how do you think they brainwash them? is it like a whole conspiracy?

Its not a conspiracy...

Its simply the effect of the spiritual warfare we found ourselves baptized into since regeneration...

As in all war, the enemy wants above all else to keep those who they oppose from knowing what can ward off the enemy.

As in war lies pop up along with truth. Believers must choose either wisely, or emotionally according to the limits of their human emotion.

Wisely will be according to a detached logic granted by the Spirit when accurate teaching is presented.

grace and peace .....................

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

A false DICHOTOMY is when I say "your pet must be a Dog or a Cat". (Because your pet could be a Fish)

Technically, that's a fallacy of no third option.

A false dichotomy would be more like, "If you don't know if you're voting for Trump or me, you ain't black."

 

[Dizerner]

Technically, that's a fallacy of no third option.

Or the fallacy of the excluded middle. You could just say "false dilemma" so you don't limit it to two options.

 

[JonC]

The devil is in false doctrines, and they repeat forcefully over and over points that superficially seem to make sense, without allowing you to think thoroughly for yourself.

So every Puritan was seduced by satan? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Dizerner]

So every Puritan was seduced by satan? Is that what you are saying?

Every Christian that believes a false doctrine of demons has in some way been seduced by Satan.

But it doesn't mean they are unsaved; Jesus saves sinners, bro.

People can believe many false doctrines, and still trust that Christ suffered the punishment of their sins.

Do you trust that Christ died for your sins, bro?!

 

[JonC]

Its not a conspiracy...

Its simply the effect of the spiritual warfare we found ourselves baptized into since regeneration...

As in all war, the enemy wants above all else to keep those who they oppose from knowing what can ward off the enemy.

As in war lies pop up along with truth. Believers must choose either wisely, or emotionally according to the limits of their human emotion.

Wisely will be according to a detached logic granted by the Spirit when accurate teaching is presented.

grace and peace .....................

So GZ, all the puritans and reformers made bad choices and were emotional unstable??? Is that it?

 

[GeneZ]

So GZ, all the puritans and reformers made bad choices and were emotional unstable??? Is that it?

I am not all that familiar with the Puritans, other than they were strict.
Can you cite and example of what you refer to?

And, where did I say they were emotionally unstable?

 

[praise_yeshua]

So every Puritan was seduced by satan? Is that what you are saying?

Contrary to popular belief, not all Puritans held the same position. Neither do everyone that calls themselves a Calvinist.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not all that familiar with the Puritans, other than they were strict.
Can you cite and example of what you refer to?

And, where did I say they were emotionally unstable?

I personally see emotional instability when a Calvinist actually insist that all actually means all. I wish they would just pick a position and stick with it. There is no absolute unity in the Calvinist position. Even the Westminster Confession and Synods of Dort differ. I once enjoyed pointing out the difference but a person isn't going to actually research their historical position enough to know such things, then I question what business they have trying to teach others what they do not know themselves. I gave up arguing Calvinism and Arminianism for years. I've made many enemies over the years on this subject.

 

[GeneZ]

I personally see emotional instability when a Calvinist actually insist that all actually means all. I wish they would just pick a position and stick with it. There is no absolute unity in the Calvinist position. Even the Westminster Confession and Synods of Dort differ. I once enjoyed pointing out the difference but a person isn't going to actually research their historical position enough to know such things, then I question what business they have trying to teach others what they do not know themselves. I gave up arguing Calvinism and Arminianism for years. I've made many enemies over the years on this subject.

Its like worship of" team philosophies" not the Word of God.

Its like Saturday night football arguments over which is the better team.
It gives their flesh something to fight and argue over.

Study the Word... not what 'so and so' said. Find out for yourself. Will they do that? No..
They want someone to take responsibility for what they decide to believe.

"Blame it on Calvin, Lord! Blame it on Arminius, Lord!"

They never sat still long enough to think and study for themselves with the Word of God onto completion of their accepted belief.

Both sides have points. But, never thought out to its logical conclusion. And, both sides are as much right as they are equally wrong.

Arminius had one part right...

Arminius taught that Calvinist predestination and unconditional election made God the author of evil.

That is where the Calvinist must detach himself and jump off a cliff in accepting Calvinism.
Or? Maybe fly an airliner into a building? (religion does weird things while refusing to think logically)
Yet claiming? To be logical.

​

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to ​

be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4​

Imagine that!

 

[TedT]

Arminius had one part right...

Arminius taught that Calvinist predestination and unconditional election made God the author of evil.

Agreed.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to ​

be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4​

Context:

2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men [regardless of station or standing] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

"All men" in this context does not mean every human who ever lived, lives or will live. It just means that God is no respecter of men's stations or standings.

 

[GeneZ]

Context:

2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men [regardless of station or standing] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

"All men" in this context does not mean every human who ever lived, lives or will live. It just means that God is no respecter of men's stations or standings.

Are you a Calvinist? That is their argument.

Which makes no sense in the light of the truth that Jesus died for the sins of all men!

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ​

ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

Tell me. Do you blank out on that?
Calvinists do. That says there was no limited atonement!

You realize yet this argument is a stupid one. Don't you?

Grow up, please.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ​

ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

Again, context. To whom is John speaking?

2 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. I have no problem with the atonement being sufficient for all sins in the world, though I don't know if that's true. The application of the atonement is a different thing altogether.

In other words, this doesn't just apply to you/us, my little children, but to people in the whole world. Or are you a universalist believing that this means everyone in the world will be saved?

 

[GeneZ]

Again, context. To whom is John speaking?

2 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

In other words, this doesn't just apply to you/us, my little children, but to people in the whole world. Or are you a universalist believing that this means everyone in the world will be saved?

Might as well be debating a Jehovah Witness as this point.....

You're going to try to 'bs' through anything that steps on your feet and smacks you in the nose.....

And, act like it does not hurt...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Might as well be debating a Jehovah Witness as this point.....

You're going to try to 'bs' through anything that steps on your feet and smacks you in the nose.....

And, act like it does not hurt...

And you cherry pick verses without context. You missed my edit -- I don't know if the atonement covers all the sins of the world, but even if it does, salvation isn't conferred by atonement, but by grace through faith.

 

[GeneZ]

And you cherry pick verses without context. You missed my edit -- I don't know if the atonement covers all the sins of the world, but even if it does, salvation isn't conferred by atonement, but by grace through faith.

Atonement for all, means salvation is potentiality open for all to be found acceptable to God.
It does not mean all are automatically saved because of the atonement.

Besides, why would Jesus die for the sins of the world if it were only a limited atonement?

Unbelievers? How can you punish someone if they had no choice in the matter?

Some Calvinists make God appear to be cruel and insane, yet they think they are being rational by sticking with the Word of God.

I remember how in the USA during the Viet Nam war days how some young men feigned insanity to stay out of the war.
Likewise... We are in a spiritual war where some cowards feign insanity to stay out of the battle. They do so by setting up a wall
of dullness in their soul in their resistance. "Dull," as in, they just won't and refuse to get it.

They do not want to fight the good fight.
For demonic projections intimidate them too easily.

They are afraid to enter the fray, and will resent and try to trip up those who are not afraid.

............