Who The Father Comes To

Rockson

Rockson

Well-known member
Maybe just a couple of nuggets to show Calvinists' way of thinking about the elect doesn't seem to work. I'll quote the passage and comment on it next.

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. John 14:22,23

It seems there's a condition as to whether God the Father will manifest himself to one. If they love Jesus and accept his words. Calvinism though seems to say that NO God the Father has already decided to manifest himself unto them because they are the elect. No. The above indicates he manifests himself to the one who first shows a love towards Jesus which would mean they accept Jesus words. When they show a love for them and receive the gospel it's then they're born again. So grace is imparted only after they have done this and not before. Our good Calvinists friends have regeneration taking place before one believes in their hearts and confesses Jesus as Lord. But again it says he comes to manifest himself and makes his abode with them after they have done this....and not before.
 
Let me rephrase your challenge to illustrate where you've gone wrong. In fact, I'll use the free-willer favorite.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Well, there you have it. All you have to do is believe. Easier than loving Jesus.

What neither your quote nor "mine" tells you is why one person believes/loves and another doesn't. Anyone who loves me. Whosoever believes. Same diff. Neither tells you how a person comes to believe or love. That is the question. Whether it is nobler... oh, wrong text.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Well, there you have it. All you have to do is believe. Easier than loving Jesus.
Click to expand...
Hold it now. What does Jn 5:39 tell us?

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men. 42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. John 5:39

It states to believe your motivation is because you choose to LOVE God. See verse 42.....and if you choose to have 42 you will do verse 40.....which is believe and have LIFE.

Now read the sequence of Jn 14:23 . My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. John 14:22,23

You Calvinists it seems have the Father coming and making his abode with them BEFORE they love him or Jesus.


The Rogue Tomato said:
What neither your quote nor "mine" tells you is why one person believes/loves and another doesn't.
Click to expand...
But the verses I have shown sets aside the Calvinists assumptions. If he says the Father comes to the one after the one has chosen to love God then he couldn't have come to him prior. Give it some though anyway. :)

 
Rockson said:
Maybe just a couple of nuggets to show Calvinists' way of thinking about the elect doesn't seem to work. I'll quote the passage and comment on it next.

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. John 14:22,23

It seems there's a condition as to whether God the Father will manifest himself to one. If they love Jesus and accept his words. Calvinism though seems to say that NO God the Father has already decided to manifest himself unto them because they are the elect. No. The above indicates he manifests himself to the one who first shows a love towards Jesus which would mean they accept Jesus words. When they show a love for them and receive the gospel it's then they're born again. So grace is imparted only after they have done this and not before. Our good Calvinists friends have regeneration taking place before one believes in their hearts and confesses Jesus as Lord. But again it says he comes to manifest himself and makes his abode with them after they have done this....and not before.
Click to expand...
'... "Lord, how is it
that Thou wilt manifest Thyself unto us,
and not unto the world?"
Jesus answered and said unto him,
"If a man love Me, he will keep My words:
and My Father will love him,
and we will come unto him,
and make Our abode with him.
He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings:
and the word which ye hear is not Mine,
but the Father's which sent Me."'
(John 14:22-24)

Hello @Rockson,

I do not fit in either category for which this thread is intended (Calvinist or Armenian), but hope you will not mind if I contribute. 🙃

* Our Lord spake His Father's words, and it is they who believe the words of God the Father, which He spake, who will have the joy of having both the Father and the Son abide with them in the Spirit.

'That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us:
and truly our fellowship is with the Father,
and with His Son Jesus Christ.'
(1John 1:3)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris


'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom 10:17)
 
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Its really simple since everyone that hears the gospel is a sinner. There are only two reasons why some come and others reject since they are hearing the same gospel message and being convicted by the same Holy Spirit. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes that He will convict the world of their sin. We all started out as children of the devil under the god of this world whom we followed that ruled over us. Then we became the children of God after the preaching/hearing of the gospel and placing our faith in Christ.

1- The ones who come to Christ in faith after hearing the gospel know they are sinners, humble themselves, desire a life change and to follow Christ and repent of their sins, hate their sins, sinful lifestyle, rebellion against God etc........

2- The ones who hear the gospel, are convicted of their sins and reject Christ are the ones who love their sin, do not want to repent and submit to God because of their pride.

It has nothing to do with predestination, election, reprobation, determinism etc........

Its as simple as that @The Rogue Tomato :)

hope this helps !!!
 
'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience
and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.'
(1Peter 1:2)

Hello @Rockson,

The word (above) came into my mind as I closed my last post, and I felt I should bring it here for us to consider together. Those to whom Peter wrote (above), were the believing remnant of Israel, who indeed were an election from within an election. For Israel as a nation was elect of God, and those whom He called out during the earthly ministry of the Lord, and during the further ministry of the twelve, were an elect company from within that nation. Chosen to fulfill God's purpose for that time (many would suffer martyrdom, like Peter himself, and Paul - among many) The salvation of the nation of Israel as a whole being for a time which is yet to come.

This is as far as I can go at the moment,

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Rockson said:
Hold it now. What does Jn 5:39 tell us?

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men. 42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. John 5:39

It states to believe your motivation is because you choose to LOVE God. See verse 42.....and if you choose to have 42 you will do verse 40.....which is believe and have LIFE.

Now read the sequence of Jn 14:23 . My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. John 14:22,23

You Calvinists it seems have the Father coming and making his abode with them BEFORE they love him or Jesus.



But the verses I have shown sets aside the Calvinists assumptions. If he says the Father comes to the one after the one has chosen to love God then he couldn't have come to him prior. Give it some though anyway. :)
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. What it says is whoever loves, and whosoever believes. It doesn't say why one does and another doesn't.

Synergists say "free will choice". Monergists say regeneration. The verses don't say either one.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
No, it doesn't. What it says is whoever loves, and whosoever believes. It doesn't say why one does and another doesn't.

Synergists say "free will choice". Monergists say regeneration. The verses don't say either one.
Click to expand...
Sure it does as once again CONTEXT IS KING.

John 3- This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

conclusion: just as my previous post points out the ones that love their sin remain in darkness and the ones who repent of their sins, hate their sin and choose to love and follow Christ will be in the light, saved, receive eternal live and have come out of darkness and into the Light. :)

hope this helps !!!
 
What see of the view of salvation held by Calvin is this: As a result of the fall, the whole mass of humanity was lost, under the condemnation of God, depraved, living in wicked rebellion against God, unwilling—and unable to be willing—to turn to him. Out of that mass of humanity, God determined to save some and chose those whom he would save—and in whom he would do the whole work of saving them without any conditions for them to meet. The rest of humanity God gave no opportunity to be saved and made no plan of salvation for them.

That is stark, but it is Calvinism. And it is the reason free will is denied since in Calvin's picture there is no role for free will.
 
Azriel said:
What see of the view of salvation held by Calvin is this: As a result of the fall, the whole mass of humanity was lost, under the condemnation of God, depraved, living in wicked rebellion against God, unwilling—and unable to be willing—to turn to him.
Click to expand...

I don't see Adam doing this. Nor do I read that Eve did this. Nor Seth. Nor Abel. Cain eventually did but not from the start.

So we have a 4 to 1 margin that opposes Calvin's narrative.
 
civic said:
Sure it does as once again CONTEXT IS KING.

John 3- This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

conclusion: just as my previous post points out the ones that love their sin remain in darkness and the ones who repent of their sins, hate their sin and choose to love and follow Christ will be in the light, saved, receive eternal live and have come out of darkness and into the Light. :)

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...

You can repeat this until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't say what you want it to say. WHOEVER lives by the truth. Just like WHOEVER believes. WHOEVER loves. This tells you there's a subset of people who live by the truth, believe, and love, but the verses don't say ANYTHING about why one person does and another doesn't.

You believe free will. Bully for you. I believe predestination. But those verses don't prove either one.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You can repeat this until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't say what you want it to say. WHOEVER lives by the truth. Just like WHOEVER believes. WHOEVER loves. This tells you there's a subset of people who live by the truth, believe, and love, but the verses don't say ANYTHING about why one person does and another doesn't.

You believe free will. Bully for you. I believe predestination. But those verses don't prove either one.
Click to expand...
Whoever believes nut 🥜 who ever in who ville is predestined lol 😝
 
Azriel said:
That is stark, but it is Calvinism. And it is the reason free will is denied since in Calvin's picture there is no role for free will.
Click to expand...

That's simply not true. Every monergist I know believes in free will. Just not libertarian free will. We freely will according to our inclination.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You can repeat this until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't say what you want it to say. WHOEVER lives by the truth. Just like WHOEVER believes. WHOEVER loves. This tells you there's a subset of people who live by the truth, believe, and love, but the verses don't say ANYTHING about why one person does and another doesn't.

You believe free will. Bully for you. I believe predestination. But those verses don't prove either one.
Click to expand...

Unnamed human beings.....

Isn't it interesting that some Calvinists insist that THEY are named by Christ in election. Yet, they make arguments such as this.........

Looks extraordinarily contradictory to me. Which is why I have asked Calvinist a large portion of my life to show me where THEY are individually name. He doesn't realize this but he is actually establishing Corporate election.
 

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