Who is the creator

Nothing to get upset about or try to provoke me. That's a trespass, by the way. I forgive you. You didn't seem to know that the only thing I'm proving is K's mistaken belief that all Bibles before 1879 had "a" god in John 1:1 regarding the Word. They don't. I'm just helping Doug.

py, I have a lot of old Bibles, but the only modern translation from Westcott and Hort I have is the NASB from before the KNJV came out and I bought in 1985.

If I have a question, I check Young's Literal translation. And if I still have a question, I ask God, and most of the time am given the answer immediately, unless He wants me to keep searching to show myself approved. You know, lexicons etc.
I appreciate the kindness. Provoking is good at times. Just taking the opportunity to make a point in the context of the subject at hand. I interrupt at times. I know I do. I should stay out of some conversations.

I'm glad you study. Never stop. Keep digging for that treasure hid in the field.....

In my mind, the man that discovered the treasure just keep finding more and more of it. Like someone once said. We are on the "little end of something BIG"......

That treasure is HUGE.....
 
The JWs are endorsing this Bible by posting it on their website! Why would they post it without statements of discrediting its translation of John 1:1?

Doug
The Jw,s know Gods truth--The rest know little. Thus the JW,s can use the altered versions and point out certain truths. There is alot of truth in those altered versions, But with Gods name removed they mislead all using them as main bible.
 
But this is why the Watchtower chose to make their own version, because Rotherman and the Authorized Version both translated John 1:1 as “the Word was God”, which is inconvenient for teaching the very opposite meaning.

JW: We believe that Jesus is not God, but is rather “a god” of lesser rank.

Listener: What does your Bible say he is?

JW: Well it says “the Word was God” but that is not a correct translation.

JW to partner JW: We gotta do something about this; it’s getting to be a real problem!


Doug
About 20 translations by Greek scholars has a god at John 1:1--So one set of Greek scholars is lying. Could it be the ones who refuse to put Gods name back to support Jesus Fathers will?= yes.
 
The Quakers didn’t go either, but they believe Jesus is God as well. (I know, I was one for many years.)

Doug
All who know Jesus, know 100% he would never condone the true Brothers in Christ to stand on both sides of a war murdering each other for corrupt govts. So that is good the Mormons refused, it is not good their bible is altered and they are being mislead to serve a false god.
 
If you going to expect people to take you seriously, then you can't say things like this.

These "archives" you're talking about haven't been around for very long. Vatican City was founded in 1929. We have digital copies of the most important collections of early church history and most of the originals are not in "Vatican archives".

Codex Vaticanus isn't really needed at all. Codex Alexandrinus is far more important. You shouldn't be listening to these "elders" that are leading you astray.

Where has your elder told you that you belong? At the end of the line?
I state facts. Yes the world hates Gods truth and truth that exposes the wickedness of this world. They murdered Jesus and his followers for exposing them back then.
 
No reputable Koine Greek scholar has agreed with the JW that the NWT is a good translation though
Because they are not reputable--Any reputable scholar would support Gods will by putting his name back where he willed it in his bible( its not mans bible) because he wants it there, The unreputable Greek scholars refuse because they know it exposes their trinity god and those religions as false.
 
I do not think Dr Wallace,Dr metzger, Burgeon e, Dr Mantey etc were catholic scholars
They don't have to be. The only remaining Greek texts were done in the 4th century=Catholicism translating. Very few minor older fragments remain. Thus either Catholicism is true( never) or The JW,s are( 100% fact)
 
Because they are not reputable
Are you a reputable Greek Scholar? Have you ever even taken Greek?
The only remaining Greek texts were done in the 4th century=Catholicism translating.
In the fourth century, there was only one church; there were many opinions and there was not always unity, but the Deity of Christ has been consistently held as true and all dissenters have been discredited and dismissed from the Church as heretics.

The texts of the fourth century were precisely what they were in the first century with only minor variations, if any, from the later copies.

The texts themselves are constant, interpreters are people who must follow the rules of grammar and understand the meanings of words in the era in which they were written. There is no reason to think that what Paul first wrote in the first century is not what we are reading today, for again, the 5800 mss we have are exactly the same at least 99.5% of the cases (and it may be as high as 99.9% of the time.)


Doug
 
About 20 translations by Greek scholars has a god at John 1:1--So one set of Greek scholars is lying. Could it be the ones who refuse to put Gods name back to support Jesus Fathers will?= yes.
And how many don’t have it? What would you say the ratio is; 100 to 1, 500 to 1?

One other thought; the nature of scholarly research is not to “fit the mold”, but to establish a verifiable understanding of something. After a long period of time, a reliable pattern is established that creates a consensus in, and a consistency of established understanding and thereby truth constants that are stabilizing factors.

To suggest diverting from that established understanding requires a mountain of evidence to prove the validity of the argument that it should be different. That’s why doctoral dissertations have to be presented and proven to a panel of experts to validate the theory of the concept being presented by the student.

2000 years of research and examination by people who are seeking the truth about reality have agreed that the language and intent of the NT writers is to establish that Jesus is God the son! If you don’t agree, that’s your right, but you don’t alter the evidence that says differently to make your argument.

Doug
 
Yes-unbias Greek scholar-showed the world truth at John 1:1
He was biased against Christianity as historically understood. He didn’t think Jesus was God but thought, as a Pantheist, that God was everything else. That is as biased as it gets!

Doug
 
Are you a reputable Greek Scholar? Have you ever even taken Greek?

In the fourth century, there was only one church; there were many opinions and there was not always unity, but the Deity of Christ has been consistently held as true and all dissenters have been discredited and dismissed from the Church as heretics.

The texts of the fourth century were precisely what they were in the first century with only minor variations, if any, from the later copies.

The texts themselves are constant, interpreters are people who must follow the rules of grammar and understand the meanings of words in the era in which they were written. There is no reason to think that what Paul first wrote in the first century is not what we are reading today, for again, the 5800 mss we have are exactly the same at least 99.5% of the cases (and it may be as high as 99.9% of the time.)


Doug
I don't need to. The teachings of Jesus are clear--John 1:1 contradicts him to the core. In the same book of John Jesus teaches-17:3-The one who sent him= Father = THE ONLY TRUE GOD verse 6=YHVH(Jehovah, Verse 26= YHVH(Jehovah--See one of them would be a liar standing against each other in contradiction in your altered bibles. My post about John 1:1 is pure fact.
 
And how many don’t have it? What would you say the ratio is; 100 to 1, 500 to 1?

One other thought; the nature of scholarly research is not to “fit the mold”, but to establish a verifiable understanding of something. After a long period of time, a reliable pattern is established that creates a consensus in, and a consistency of established understanding and thereby truth constants that are stabilizing factors.

To suggest diverting from that established understanding requires a mountain of evidence to prove the validity of the argument that it should be different. That’s why doctoral dissertations have to be presented and proven to a panel of experts to validate the theory of the concept being presented by the student.

2000 years of research and examination by people who are seeking the truth about reality have agreed that the language and intent of the NT writers is to establish that Jesus is God the son! If you don’t agree, that’s your right, but you don’t alter the evidence that says differently to make your argument.

Doug
All Greek manuscripts came from Catholicism translating=FACT. Very few minor fragments remain that are older than Catholicism 4th century translating of NT.
 
He was biased against Christianity as historically understood. He didn’t think Jesus was God but thought, as a Pantheist, that God was everything else. That is as biased as it gets!

Doug
Then tell us all which one is a liar-John? or Jesus because in the same book of John at 17:1-6,26--Jesus teaches-The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD=100% contradiction of the Word being called capitol G God at John 1:1-- So please tell us who lied. Otherwise my facts i present are 100% truth that takes away the contradiction found in all the altered bibles that mislead to destruction.
 
All Greek manuscripts came from Catholicism translating=FACT
The only fact is your incomprehensible ability to make no sense! Greek mss do not come “from” anything, much less from Catholic translating!

Greek mss are the things that need translated, they don’t come from translating! 🙄


Doug
 
Then tell us all which one is a liar-John? or Jesus because in the same book of John at 17:1-6,26--Jesus teaches-The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD=100% contradiction of the Word being called capitol G God at John 1:1-- So please tell us who lied. Otherwise my facts i present are 100% truth that takes away the contradiction found in all the altered bibles that mislead to destruction.
He doesn’t say that the Father is the only true God; he only says the Father is the only true God, which means the Father “is”, present tense, truly God, not a false god. He doesn’t say that he is the only one who can be truly God!

John would be a polytheist if he means that Jesus is “a god” in addition to the Father being the true God. Was John a polytheist?

Doug
 
All Greek manuscripts came from Catholicism translating=FACT. Very few minor fragments remain that are older than Catholicism 4th century translating of NT.
k and @TibiasDad I like to see if perhaps church fathers going back as far as possible quote the verses you are debating. Irenaeus was born in 130 AD and would have still had access to the original letters. This is before the Catholic Church was created by man in the 4th century. The Desposyni still headed the Church (relatives of Jesus). In book one of the Anti-Nicene Fathers says on page 526,2 regarding John 1 in complete context. K, there is no "a"

2. For the Father bears the creation and His own Word simultaneously, and the Word borne by the Father grants the Spirit to all as the Father wills. To some He gives after the manner of creation what is made; but to others [He gives] after the manner of adoption, that is, what is from God, namely generation. And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ; but the Word is through all things, and is Himself the Head of the Church; while the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water, which the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in Him, and love Him, and who know that "there is one Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all." And to these things does John also, the disciple of the Lord, bear witness, when he speaks thus in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made." And then he said of the Word Himself: "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world know Him not. To His own things He came, and His own people received Him not. However, as many as did receive Him, to these gave He power to become the sons of God, to those that believe in His name," And again, showing the dispensation with regard to His human nature, John said: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," And in continuation he says, "And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten by the Father, full of grace and truth." He thus plainly points out to those willing to hear, that is, to those having ears, that there is one God, the Father over all, and one Word of God, who is through all, by whom all things have been made; and that this world belongs to Him, and was made by Him, according to the Father's will, and not by angels; nor by apostasy, defect, and ignorance; nor by any power of Prunicus, whom certain of them also call "the Mother;" nor by any other maker of the world ignorant of the Father. For the Creator of the world is truly the Word of God; and this is our Lord, who in the last times was made man, existing in this world, and who in an invisible manner contains all things created, and is inherent in the entire creation, since the Word of God governs and arranges all things; and therefore He cam to His own in a visible manner, and was made flesh, and hung upon the tree, that He might sum up all things in Himself. "And His own peculiar people did not receive Him," as Moses declared this very thing among the people: "And thy life shall be hanging before thine eyes, and thou wilt not believe thy life." (Deut. 28:66) Those therefore who did not receive Him did not receive life. "But to as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." For it is He who has power from the Father over all things, since He is the Word of God, and very man, communicating with invisible beings after the manner of the intellect, and appointing a law observable to the outward senses, that all things should continue each in its own order; and He reigns manifestly o er things visible and pertaining to men; and brings in just judgment and worthy upon all; as David also, clearly pointing to this, says, "Our God shall openly come, and will not keep silence." Then he shows also the judgment which is brought in by Him, saying, "A fire shall burn in His sight, and a strong tempest shall rage round about Him. He shall call upon the heaven from above, and the earth, to judge His people."
 
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k and @TibiasDad I like to see if perhaps church fathers going back as far as possible quote the verses you are debating. Irenaeus was born in 130 AD and would have still had access to the original letters. This is before the Catholic Church was created by man in the 4th century. The Desposyni still headed the Church (relatives of Jesus). In book one of the Anti-Nicene Fathers says on page 526,2 regarding John 1 in complete context. K, there is no "a"

2. For the Father bears the creation and His own Word simultaneously, and the Word borne by the Father grants the Spirit to all as the Father wills. To some He gives after the manner of creation what is made; but to others [He gives] after the manner of adoption, that is, what is from God, namely generation. And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ; but the Word is through all things, and is Himself the Head of the Church; while the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water, which the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in Him, and love Him, and who know that "there is one Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all." And to these things does John also, the disciple of the Lord, bear witness, when he speaks thus in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made." And then he said of the Word Himself: "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world know Him not. To His own things He came, and His own people received Him not. However, as many as did receive Him, to these gave He power to become the sons of God, to those that believe in His name," And again, showing the dispensation with regard to His human nature, John said: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," And in continuation he says, "And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten by the Father, full of grace and truth." He thus plainly points out to those willing to hear, that is, to those having ears, that there is one God, the Father over all, and one Word of God, who is through all, by whom all things have been made; and that this world belongs to Him, and was made by Him, according to the Father's will, and not by angels; nor by apostasy, defect, and ignorance; nor by any power of Prunicus, whom certain of them also call "the Mother;" nor by any other maker of the world ignorant of the Father. For the Creator of the world is truly the Word of God; and this is our Lord, who in the last times was made man, existing in this world, and who in an invisible manner contains all things created, and is inherent in the entire creation, since the Word of God governs and arranges all things; and therefore He cam to His own in a visible manner, and was made flesh, and hung upon the tree, that He might sum up all things in Himself. "And His own peculiar people did not receive Him," as Moses declared this very thing among the people: "And thy life shall be hanging before thine eyes, and thou wilt not believe thy life." (Deut. 28:66) Those therefore who did not receive Him did not receive life. "But to as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." For it is He who has power from the Father over all things, since He is the Word of God, and very man, communicating with invisible beings after the manner of the intellect, and appointing a law observable to the outward senses, that all things should continue each in its own order; and He reigns manifestly o er things visible and pertaining to men; and brings in just judgment and worthy upon all; as David also, clearly pointing to this, says, "Our God shall openly come, and will not keep silence." Then he shows also the judgment which is brought in by Him, saying, "A fire shall burn in His sight, and a strong tempest shall rage round about Him. He shall call upon the heaven from above, and the earth, to judge His people."



Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippianshe says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.
 
k and @TibiasDad I like to see if perhaps church fathers going back as far as possible quote the verses you are debating. Irenaeus was born in 130 AD and would have still had access to the original letters. This is before the Catholic Church was created by man in the 4th century. The Desposyni still headed the Church (relatives of Jesus). In book one of the Anti-Nicene Fathers says on page 526,2 regarding John 1 in complete context. K, there is no "a"

2. For the Father bears the creation and His own Word simultaneously, and the Word borne by the Father grants the Spirit to all as the Father wills. To some He gives after the manner of creation what is made; but to others [He gives] after the manner of adoption, that is, what is from God, namely generation. And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ; but the Word is through all things, and is Himself the Head of the Church; while the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water, which the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in Him, and love Him, and who know that "there is one Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all." And to these things does John also, the disciple of the Lord, bear witness, when he speaks thus in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made." And then he said of the Word Himself: "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world know Him not. To His own things He came, and His own people received Him not. However, as many as did receive Him, to these gave He power to become the sons of God, to those that believe in His name," And again, showing the dispensation with regard to His human nature, John said: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," And in continuation he says, "And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten by the Father, full of grace and truth." He thus plainly points out to those willing to hear, that is, to those having ears, that there is one God, the Father over all, and one Word of God, who is through all, by whom all things have been made; and that this world belongs to Him, and was made by Him, according to the Father's will, and not by angels; nor by apostasy, defect, and ignorance; nor by any power of Prunicus, whom certain of them also call "the Mother;" nor by any other maker of the world ignorant of the Father. For the Creator of the world is truly the Word of God; and this is our Lord, who in the last times was made man, existing in this world, and who in an invisible manner contains all things created, and is inherent in the entire creation, since the Word of God governs and arranges all things; and therefore He cam to His own in a visible manner, and was made flesh, and hung upon the tree, that He might sum up all things in Himself. "And His own peculiar people did not receive Him," as Moses declared this very thing among the people: "And thy life shall be hanging before thine eyes, and thou wilt not believe thy life." (Deut. 28:66) Those therefore who did not receive Him did not receive life. "But to as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." For it is He who has power from the Father over all things, since He is the Word of God, and very man, communicating with invisible beings after the manner of the intellect, and appointing a law observable to the outward senses, that all things should continue each in its own order; and He reigns manifestly o er things visible and pertaining to men; and brings in just judgment and worthy upon all; as David also, clearly pointing to this, says, "Our God shall openly come, and will not keep silence." Then he shows also the judgment which is brought in by Him, saying, "A fire shall burn in His sight, and a strong tempest shall rage round about Him. He shall call upon the heaven from above, and the earth, to judge His people."
Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:2">2</a>
Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:3">3</a>
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:4">4</a>
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:5">5</a>
Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:6">6</a>
For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:7">7</a>
I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:8">8</a>
Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:9">9</a>
 
Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,
Good to know. Go back and copy @Keiw1 on those. If he really desires TRUTH, and is not just brainwashed into believing UNTRUTH, he may leave that cult like I did mine. Let's see where his heart really is - whether God's or JW's.
 
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