Who is the creator

[TibiasDad]

The bible would contradict itself If i am refuted. We know Gods real bible has no contradictions. Catholicism translating errors cause contradictions and mislead.

Prove it! Translate the Greek text. That’s what I am doing, why can’t you? It is the language that refutes you, not me. It’s not Catholicism, as I’ve never been Catholic or been taught by any Catholic teacher.

Greek texts are not “Catholic”, they are just words written by people who were not “catholic” in any sense of the word, long before the “Catholic” church as we know it existed.

I want you to do nothing but deal with the text itself. Deal with the language, the words of the texts. Explain the grammar and syntax, from a koine Greek perspective. You cannot do that and conclude what you have concluded.

As for contradictions, there are more than 5000 extant mss and there are only, if memory serves, about 0.5% of the words that have any variation within these 5000 mss and none are of any major theological significance. Most are variants of names of people or places. That is at least a 99.5% accuracy rate; the highest of any other mss of ancient literature.

If your wording is not in the Greek texts, then they are not to be in the English translation! To do so is to add to the word of God!

Doug

 

[FreeInChrist]

@TibiasDad , Good morning

Quick question....

The poster has such animosity toward the Catholic church and that they may have translated the original scriptures as incorrect, or somehow tainted them.

What is your opinion of the Peshitta or any Aramaic bible translated into English.

I have heard that the Peshitta itself was primarily translated by Jewish and Jewish-Christian communities before the establishment of the Catholic Church.

And search assist says this....


Search Assist

The Peshitta has been translated into English by various scholars and groups, but it is not specifically attributed to Catholic translators. Notable translations include those by individuals connected to different Christian traditions, including Protestant and Messianic perspectives.

Translation of the Peshitta into English​

Overview of Peshitta Translations​

The Peshitta, the standard Syriac version of the Bible, has been translated into English by various scholars and groups, but not specifically by the Catholic Church. The translations have been carried out by individuals and organizations interested in making the text accessible to English-speaking audiences.

Notable English Translations​

• James Murdock (1915): One of the earliest English translations of the Peshitta New Testament.
• Janet Magiera: Known for her Aramaic Peshitta New Testament translations, including a vertical interlinear version.
• Gorgias Press: Published the Antioch Bible, which includes a Peshitta text and translation.
• The Way International: Produced an Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament.

Conclusion​

While there are many English translations of the Peshitta, they are not officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Instead, these translations come from various scholars and organizations focused on the Syriac Christian tradition.

Because they are not officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church.... and because

Most scholars agree that Jesus primarily spoke a Galilean dialect of Aramaic, as it was the common language of the Jewish people in his region during the first century. He likely also understood Hebrew and some Greek, but Aramaic was the language he used in daily life and ministry. Anyone who is so anti-Catholic should have gravitated here a long time ago.
It is said....
The Peshitta New Testament is the only complete Aramaic New Testament known today which is held by a significant Christian denomination to be the original text written by the Apostles.
It is also said....
It is quite feasible that The Peshitta Old Testament provides an invaluable tool by which to correct Hebrew Massoretic readings and ascertain the original text, unlike any other such tool available.

This is the link to the NT I have at the ready for my comparisons.

https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/ for

Example:
From here John 1:1-3 reads

Chapter 1
ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ
1 In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}.

ܗܢܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܒܪܫܝܬ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ
2 This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}.

ܟܠ ܒܐܝܕܗ ܗܘܐ ܘܒܠܥܕܘܗܝ ܐܦ ܠܐ ܚܕܐ ܗܘܬ ܡܕܡ ܕܗܘܐ
3 By His Hand {i.e. by His Power} anything came to be, and without Him, not even one thing came to be, which has come to be.

John 1:14 reads


ܘܡܠܬܐ ܒܣܪܐ ܗܘܐ ܘܐܓܢ ܒܢ ܘܚܙܝܢ ܫܘܒܚܗ ܫܘܒܚܐ ܐܝܟ ܕܝܚܝܕܝܐ ܕܡܢ ܐܒܐ ܕܡܠܐ ܛܝܒܘܬܐ ܘܩܘܫܬܐ
14 And The Miltha {The Word} became flesh {i.e. a Human Being}, and dwelt among us, and we saw His Glory, Glory as of The Unique One who is from Aba {The Father}, who is full of Taybutha {Grace} and Qushtha {Truth}.

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad , Good morning

Quick question....

The poster has such animosity toward the Catholic church and that they may have translated the original scriptures as incorrect, or somehow tainted them.

What is your opinion of the Peshitta or any Aramaic bible translated into English.

I have heard that the Peshitta itself was primarily translated by Jewish and Jewish-Christian communities before the establishment of the Catholic Church.

And search assist says this....


Search Assist

The Peshitta has been translated into English by various scholars and groups, but it is not specifically attributed to Catholic translators. Notable translations include those by individuals connected to different Christian traditions, including Protestant and Messianic perspectives.

Translation of the Peshitta into English​

Overview of Peshitta Translations​

The Peshitta, the standard Syriac version of the Bible, has been translated into English by various scholars and groups, but not specifically by the Catholic Church. The translations have been carried out by individuals and organizations interested in making the text accessible to English-speaking audiences.

Notable English Translations​

• James Murdock (1915): One of the earliest English translations of the Peshitta New Testament.
• Janet Magiera: Known for her Aramaic Peshitta New Testament translations, including a vertical interlinear version.
• Gorgias Press: Published the Antioch Bible, which includes a Peshitta text and translation.
• The Way International: Produced an Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament.

Conclusion​

While there are many English translations of the Peshitta, they are not officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Instead, these translations come from various scholars and organizations focused on the Syriac Christian tradition.

Because they are not officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church.... and because

Most scholars agree that Jesus primarily spoke a Galilean dialect of Aramaic, as it was the common language of the Jewish people in his region during the first century. He likely also understood Hebrew and some Greek, but Aramaic was the language he used in daily life and ministry. Anyone who is so anti-Catholic should have gravitated here a long time ago.
It is said....
The Peshitta New Testament is the only complete Aramaic New Testament known today which is held by a significant Christian denomination to be the original text written by the Apostles.
It is also said....
It is quite feasible that The Peshitta Old Testament provides an invaluable tool by which to correct Hebrew Massoretic readings and ascertain the original text, unlike any other such tool available.

This is the link to the NT I have at the ready for my comparisons.

https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/ for

Example:
From here John 1:1-3 reads

Chapter 1
ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ
1 In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}.

ܗܢܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܒܪܫܝܬ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ
2 This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}.

ܟܠ ܒܐܝܕܗ ܗܘܐ ܘܒܠܥܕܘܗܝ ܐܦ ܠܐ ܚܕܐ ܗܘܬ ܡܕܡ ܕܗܘܐ
3 By His Hand {i.e. by His Power} anything came to be, and without Him, not even one thing came to be, which has come to be.

John 1:14 reads


ܘܡܠܬܐ ܒܣܪܐ ܗܘܐ ܘܐܓܢ ܒܢ ܘܚܙܝܢ ܫܘܒܚܗ ܫܘܒܚܐ ܐܝܟ ܕܝܚܝܕܝܐ ܕܡܢ ܐܒܐ ܕܡܠܐ ܛܝܒܘܬܐ ܘܩܘܫܬܐ
14 And The Miltha {The Word} became flesh {i.e. a Human Being}, and dwelt among us, and we saw His Glory, Glory as of The Unique One who is from Aba {The Father}, who is full of Taybutha {Grace} and Qushtha {Truth}.

To be honest, I was unfamiliar with this translation, but I have no issue with the translation of John’s prologue that you provided.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

All protestant translating originates from Catholicism translating. The Latin Vulgate( 4th century) The Codex sinacticus (4th century) Is all the remained of NT when the protestants translated. There are are a very few minor fragments that are older.

Yes, I know. What did JW's use for their New World Translation? Do you know?

I like Tyndale's translation of the NT. He died for it by the pope.

 

[Keiw1]

John clearly says that Jesus created all things, whatever has been made. Since Jehovah is the creator in Genesis, and Jesus is the creator in John, then Jesus is the Jehovah in Genesis and Jehovah is the Jesus in John.

Proverbs is a highly poetic writing. Wisdom, which is not a personal being, is personified and metaphorically speaks to us. It is highly poetic in its form and not meant to be taken as literal verbatim actuality.

Wisdom could not be a created thing, for that would mean that God did not have any wisdom prior to creating it.

Moreover, the Holy Spirit was also at the creation, hovering over the deep; so there were at least two present at the creation.
The Hebrew word for “hovering” is rachaph, and means to flutter, move, or shake which shows action and purpose and intent to the motion.


Doug

It cannot be done-THROUGH one unless another did it. Prov 8:22 on is about the master worker=Jesus. It is him speaking the words of Prov 8:22-35

 

[Keiw1]

Prove it! Translate the Greek text. That’s what I am doing, why can’t you? It is the language that refutes you, not me. It’s not Catholicism, as I’ve never been Catholic or been taught by any Catholic teacher.

Greek texts are not “Catholic”, they are just words written by people who were not “catholic” in any sense of the word, long before the “Catholic” church as we know it existed.

I want you to do nothing but deal with the text itself. Deal with the language, the words of the texts. Explain the grammar and syntax, from a koine Greek perspective. You cannot do that and conclude what you have concluded.

As for contradictions, there are more than 5000 extant mss and there are only, if memory serves, about 0.5% of the words that have any variation within these 5000 mss and none are of any major theological significance. Most are variants of names of people or places. That is at least a 99.5% accuracy rate; the highest of any other mss of ancient literature.

If your wording is not in the Greek texts, then they are not to be in the English translation! To do so is to add to the word of God!

Doug

God has translated his word already= The New world translation. They put Jehovah's name back where he put it over 7000 spots. Condemned by the ones using altered translations. Your translations clearly teach 2 different Gods. Jesus teaches the Father is the only true God( John 17:3) Paul names only the Father as God-1Cor 8:6-- Error translations make the Word, God at John 1:1--It cannot be both ways--Jesus is the best source to listen to-John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD. And the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ. 100% clear in every translation on Earth-
God at John 1:1 is not in every translation on Earth.

 

[Keiw1]

Yes, I know. What did JW's use for their New World Translation? Do you know?

I like Tyndale's translation of the NT. He died for it by the pope.

God corrected his translation via holy spirit, through his faithful and discreet slave( Matt 24:45)
Tyndales-1520,s or 1530,s it came out. He had to use Catholicism translating, or others translating who had used Catholicism translating. Info was not easy to come by back then.
In the Early years of JW,s many errors occurred, they only had Catholicism altered translating to go by as well. But many truths were uncovered as well.

 

[TibiasDad]

It cannot be done-THROUGH one unless another did it. Prov 8:22 on is about the master worker=Jesus. It is him speaking the words of Prov 8:22-35

Through = dia, which identifies the means by which something happens. Yahweh said that he used his own hands to create (Isa 45:12), that means he was personally involved in a direct manner. He also said he did it alone, that is without anyone else being involved. (Isa 44:24)

So given that we have scriptural evidence of three persons at the scene of creation, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they are all worthy of being called Yahweh because all were hands on involved.

The only logical explanation is that they are all united in a corporate singularity, whereby they speak at times as a singular being, while speaking or being spoken of by others at other times as distinct individuals doing the work, such as in John’s prologue in his gospel.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God has translated his word already= The New world translation. They put Jehovah's name back where he put it over 7000 spots. Condemned by the ones using altered translations. Your translations clearly teach 2 different Gods. Jesus teaches the Father is the only true God( John 17:3) Paul names only the Father as God-1Cor 8:6-- Error translations make the Word, God at John 1:1--It cannot be both ways--Jesus is the best source to listen to-John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD. And the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ. 100% clear in every translation on Earth-
God at John 1:1 is not in every translation on Earth.

How would you know, if you’ve never studied Greek. There is no existing ms that has Yahweh in the NT so you might as well argue that there should be unicorns as well as horses in the NT.

Nobody denies that the NT speaks of Yahweh, they only use the word Lord, kurios, to refer to him-as was traditional at the time to not speak or write “the Name” lest they blaspheme it.

Take your nose out of the Watchtower and the NWT (which had no Greek experts in the translation of it) and learn biblical Greek!

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

How would you know, if you’ve never studied Greek. There is no existing ms that has Yahweh in the NT so you might as well argue that there should be unicorns as well as horses in the NT.

Nobody denies that the NT speaks of Yahweh, they only use the word Lord, kurios, to refer to him-as was traditional at the time to not speak or write “the Name” lest they blaspheme it.

Take your nose out of the Watchtower and the NWT (which had no Greek experts in the translation of it) and learn biblical Greek!

Doug

We need to know more than Greek. If you are a westerner you are liable to misinterpret plain English. We must learn the eastern style of writing that the apostles used to know their meaning. For instance, key words, Hebrew idioms and synonymous parallelisms and contrasts.

 

[TibiasDad]

We need to know more than Greek. If you are a westerner you are liable to misinterpret plain English. We must learn the eastern style of writing that the apostles used to know their meaning. For instance, key words, Hebrew idioms and synonymous parallelisms and contrasts.

You learn those when you study the language.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

You learn those when you study the language.

Doug

Not necessarily. There are scholars in Greek who don't know what the apostles are teaching and end up teaching doctrines of man or even demons. So what the apostles are actually meaning is more important than learning Greek. They are Hebrews.

 

[dwight92070]

Many are being mislead by Gen 1:26 false reasoning= Let US make man in our image--Us and our=We.
Gen 1:27= HE( not we) created--Prov 8:27-28= HE( not we created)--Isaiah 44:24-created by myself---myself = 1, not 2
So what is truth of who the us =
Jehovah( HE) and his master worker( Prov 8:30)= the one who was beside God during creation process, the one whom God grew especially fond of= his son, Jesus.
John 1:3,, Col 1:16--Things were created-THROUGH Jesus= another created it all= HE= Jehovah. By myself= the only one with the power and wisdom to create.
Jesus tells all he was created at Prov 8:22-The Hebrew word translated possessed means created.= The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15)
Trinity bible scholars( religions) CANNOT teach truth on these facts because it exposes them as false.
All creation occurred at the beginning. Will you believe bible facts?

First, the Hebrew word "qanah" means "to get" or "acquire". It does not mean "created". Second, in Proverbs 8 wisdom is personified by a woman. It appears that even as godly men are attracted to a godly woman, we are to be attracted to wisdom, as opposed to being attracted to the things of the world, personified by a foolish, sinful woman in Proverbs 9:13-18. I don't believe we are supposed to think that Proverbs 8:1 to Proverbs 9:1-12 is Jesus speaking.

Every created thing in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea - fell down and worshiped the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb, which is Jesus. So Jesus Himself is not included in "every created thing". Rather every created thing bowed down before Him. So no, Prov.8:22 does not say that Jesus was created. Rather He was the Creator.

 

[dwight92070]

We need to know more than Greek. If you are a westerner you are liable to misinterpret plain English. We must learn the eastern style of writing that the apostles used to know their meaning. For instance, key words, Hebrew idioms and synonymous parallelisms and contrasts.

Dwight - There were men who were persecuted and even martyred for making an English translation of the Bible. But forget about them, let's "untranslate" the Bible and go back to the Hebrew and the Greek - and the Hebrew idioms and the synonymous parallelisms and contrasts - so we can better understand the Word of God.

Or do we do that so we can get the Word of God to say something that's more to our liking?- like women pastors and teachers and seeing clouds over preachers, and teaching that we no longer sin?

 

[FreeInChrist]

First, the Hebrew word "qanah" means "to get" or "acquire". It does not mean "created". Second, in Proverbs 8 wisdom is personified by a woman. It appears that even as godly men are attracted to a godly woman, we are to be attracted to wisdom, as opposed to being attracted to the things of the world, personified by a foolish, sinful woman in Proverbs 9:13-18. I don't believe we are supposed to think that Proverbs 8:1 to Proverbs 9:1-12 is Jesus speaking.

Every created thing in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea - fell down and worshiped the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb, which is Jesus. So Jesus Himself is not included in "every created thing". Rather every created thing bowed down before Him. So no, Prov.8:22 does not say that Jesus was created. Rather He was the Creator.

 

[charismaticlady]

Or do we do that so we can get the Word of God to say something that's more to our liking?- like women pastors and teachers and seeing clouds over preachers, and teaching that we no longer sin?

Not a cloud. Do I perceive mocking?

The Spirit lets me physically see whether a sermon is anointed by the Spirit or not.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 ow we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[TibiasDad]

Not necessarily. There are scholars in Greek who don't know what the apostles are teaching and end up teaching doctrines of man or even demons. So what the apostles are actually meaning is more important than learning Greek. They are Hebrews.

You can’t know what they mean if you don’t understand the language they are using. I can’t understand what the French man means if I do know the French language.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Or do we do that so we can get the Word of God to say something that's more to our liking?- like women pastors and teachers and seeing clouds over preachers, and teaching that we no longer sin?

I don’t have a problem with women pastors: I was saved under the preaching of a woman pastor- one of the godliest people I have ever known. But I don’t believe any of the other fantasies that you mentioned.

I do believe that we are capable of not sinning, and that we shouldn’t sin, but we are always capable of sin if we don’t follow the Spirit’s leadings and instructions. Sinning is not the norm for healthy believers.

By the way, why was I included in the quote, when you didn’t quote me?


Doug