Yep
Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
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koberstein
Active member
koberstein
Active member
The meaning of Isaiah 53:10. Adonai was pleased that Messiah was willing to suffer
and die for the sins of humanity. Not my will but thine be done.
I do agree with you that the death of our perfectly sinless Lord satisfied the righteousness of God, thus delivering us from the wrath of God to come. God teaches us He presented His own Son as a sacrifice-sin offering to atone-make reconciliation for our sins. In the death of Jesus Christ, God demonstrated He is righteous when forbearing judgement for sins of those before Jesus, and demonstrates now after Jesus that He is righteous for forgiving sins (ref: Rom 3:25-26).
And while all this is true, it is also true that God taught us that He is merciful and showed us great love by providing a means for us to escape His coming wrath by instituting the sin offering that dies for the sin of man. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
God also teaches us that He gave His own Son to be the final, effective offering for sin that completely and permanently removes the guilt of our sin, and to receive this unimaginable gift of righteousness-being blameless in God's eyes, one only needs to believe Him.
We are saved by God's grace through faith that God sent His Son into this world to offer up His perfectly sinless life on account of our sins. In love of His Father and us, the perfect Son of Man, Jesus Christ humbled Himself to offer His life unto death on a cross to atone for our sins. This single act of righteousness justifies us, as mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:17-18.
There is zero wrath in a sin offering. Quite the contrary, it is the sin offering that averts the wrath of God for without a death for sin there is no remission of them. And our Lord most certainly came into this world to offer up His life for the remission of our sins.
I will say that our Lord died for everyone not just some. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."
And that anyone who believes will receive the gift of righteousness-blameleness God provides in the death of His own Son for our sins.
God Bless
@Johann
But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able." So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father." (Mat 20:22-23)
What is the cup that Jesus referred to that He would drink and the Apostles too?
The answer is found in what He said, "Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink". And of course He said they would too. So if our Lord suffered wrath from His Father, so too did the Apostles. But we know that did not happen.
So what is the cup that Jesus referred to that He would drink and the Apostles too?
Here are a few verses that clearly answer the question.
Mat_16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Mat_17:12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands."
Mar_8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Luk_9:22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."
Luk_17:25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Luk_22:15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
Luk_24:46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
Act_3:18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
Act_5:41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.
Act_9:16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."
Rom_8:17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Php_1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Our Lord suffered torture being despised and rejected and finally crucifixion by men not God. This same persecution and hatred is what the Apostles and early Christians faced severely, and even some parts of this world Christians are openly persecuted, suffering torture and death. We are most certainly hated by the world.
I suggest reading some of Foxe's Book of Martyrs to realize how real suffering the same cup our Lord suffered is true for those who believe in Him.
As for the rest of your quotes, none of them imply or state that God poured wrath upon His Son. You are reading that into the text because you think that is how God justifies us. I'm not denying the scriptures you quoted. I absolutely love them! Its that God teaches us differently; that it is by Him giving His own Son, Jesus Christ as an offering for our sins that He remits them, and anyone who believes in God's Son and His death for his sins will be justified-blameless before God.
Zero wrath expended, only salvation by God's wonderful loving grace to provide His Son to die for the remission of our sins.
This reply to another poster may help to understand some things. Please click Here
God Bless
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It is not stated anywhere that was God's wrath being poured out on Christ
Because of the love He had for us, Jesus Christ our Lord gave His blood for us by the will of God. He gave His flesh for our flesh, and His soul for our souls. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.18.
I mean Him who crucified my sin, along with him [Satan] who was the inventor of it. Christ has condemned all the deceit and malice of the devil under the feet of those who carry Him in their hearts. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.129.
The Father Himself placed upon Christ the burden of our iniquities. He gave His own Son as a ransom for us: the holy one for the transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked.… For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness?… O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.28.
Jesus Christ “bore our sins in His own body on the tree.” Polycarp (c. 135, E), 1.35.
He Himself purged away their sins, having suffered many trials and undergone many labors. For no one is able to dig without labor and toil. He Himself, then, having purged away the sins of the people, showed them the paths of life by giving them the law which He received from His Father. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.35.
The whole human race will be found to be under a curse.… The Father of all wished His Christ, for the whole human family, to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up.… His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.247.
My brothers, do not say any evil thing against the One who was crucified. Do not treat with scorn the stripes by which everyone may be healed, even as we [Christians] are healed. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.
Corruption became inherent in nature. So it was necessary that He who wished to save us would be someone who destroyed the essential cause of corruption. And this could not be done other than by the life that is according to nature being united to that which had received corruption. For this would destroy the corruption. At the same time, it would preserve the body that had received it with immortality for the future. Therefore, it was necessary that the Word would become possessed of a body. This was so He could deliver us from the death of natural corruption. For if, as you suggest, He had simply warded off death from us by a simple nod, indeed death would not have approached us—on account of His will. However, we would have again become corruptible, for we carried about in ourselves that natural corruption. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.301, as quoted by Leontius.
When our Lord arose from the place of the dead, and trampled death under foot, and bound the strong one, and set man free, then the whole creation saw clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned. Melito (c. 170), 8.756.
He suffered for the sake of those who suffer, and He was bound for the sake of Adam’s race, which was imprisoned. Melito (c. 170), 8.758.
In place of Isaac the just, a ram appeared for slaughter, in order that Isaac might be liberated from his bonds. The slaughter of this animal redeemed Isaac from death. In like manner, the Lord, being slain, saved us. Being bound, He loosed us. Being sacrificed, He redeemed us. Melito (c. 170), 8.759.
David W. Bercot, ed., “Atonement,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 42–43.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats not good. Because He was
Johann
Well-known member
And yet there were no cohesive systematic from any of the Church Fathers re Kippur-it came about from Calvin, Luther, Owens, Edwards etc. hence the vehement reaction against them and PSA.
brightfame52
Well-known member
False it was for His Seed
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
He specifically satisfied Gods wrath in their behalf
Johann
Well-known member
Looks like you and I are definitely in the minority regarding this and Isa 53 brother.
Isaiah 53:4-6, 10-12:
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all... Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Leviticus 16:20-22:
"When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness."
Psalm 22:1-18:
This psalm, often seen as prophetic of Jesus' suffering, begins with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and describes suffering that Christians believe prefigures Christ's crucifixion.
Exodus 12:1-13:
The instructions for the Passover lamb, whose blood protected the Israelites from the plague, are seen as a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrificial death.
New Testament
Matthew 20:28:
"Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Mark 10:45:
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
John 1:29:
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
Romans 3:25:
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished."
Romans 5:8-9:
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
2 Corinthians 5:21:
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Galatians 3:13:
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.'"
1 Peter 2:24:
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."
1 Peter 3:18:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
Hebrews 9:26-28:
"Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
Hebrews 10:10-14:
"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
These passages collectively support the doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement by depicting Jesus' death as a substitutionary sacrifice, bearing the penalty of sin to bring reconciliation between humanity and God.
Have a blessed day.
Johann.
Again you ignore the problems which PSA created within the godhead. The problem of attributing to the sinless Christ sin, The problem of division within the godhead by God forsaking God. The problem of the idea that Christ saves us from God
The 17 Claims of the Appeasement School (Atonement School), also called Penal Substitutionary Atonement.
1. Adam as mankind's federal head transmits the guilt of his sin to all mankind. (Augustine)*
2. Because of Original Sin mankind is now totally depraved. (Augustine)*
3. Even Infants, innocent of personal sin, are guilty of Original Sin. (Augustine)*
4. The sin of Adam infinitely offends God because the gravity of the offense depends on the worth of the one offended. (Anselm)
5. All sin is to be understood as a debt we owe God for the crime of having dishonored him. (Anselm)6. Even Infants owe this debt. (Anslem)
7. In the Old Testament era, God insists that this debt be paid by shedding an innocent animal's blood. (Appeasement school)
8. God could have redeemed man by the simple act of wiling it... (Anselm)
9. ...but God cannot forgive sin without first punishing the sinner. (Anselm)
10. Not only must the redemption mirror the fall, but it must also be as painful as possible since the fall was easy. (Anselm)
11. Only the death of God-man is worthy to serve as a recompense to God for his offended honor. (Anselm)
12. Christ becomes incarnate so his humanity can suffer as a substitute for us. (Anselm)
13. God pours out His wrath on Christ pretending that Christ is we, the ones who actually deserve punishment (Appeasement School)
14. On the cross, Christ becomes literal sin and a literal curse. (Appeasement School)
15. God's eyes are too holy to look upon sin, so the Father turns his back on Christ, abandoning him. (Appeasement School)
16. Christ dies on the cross as an unblemished sacrifice and thereby removes the need for further sacrifice by appeasing God's wrath once and for all. (Appeasement School)
17. Thus Christ's death ransoms us from the wrath of God. (Anselm)
And that does not even deal with the fact it makes atonement a commercial transaction as opposed to the provisionary method the bible depicts it
All of the Apostles were martyred. John, one of the two in the verse being the only one who lived through his great suffering.
The point being, the cup that Jesus drank was the same one they all drank, along with the two who approached Him asking for the most honored places in His Kingdom.
The cup our Lord drank was suffering not wrath.
There is zero biblical proof that God's wrath was poured out upon the sin offerings. And there is zero biblical proof that our Lord, whose life was given as an offering for our sin was wrathfully punished by God.
To put things into perspective from the KJV.
The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT
Of all these instances, not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord not once.
Our Lord did suffer greatly even unto death, but this was at the hands of wicked men under the power of Satan, not God.
Our merciful and loving God used wicked men and Satan to accomplish what He sent His Son to do, to offer up His life unto death for the remission of our sins. In Leviticus we learn, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.", In Matthew our Lord said, For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. And in Isaiah it is foretold, "By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear (die for) their iniquities."
We have been redeemed-purchased by the blood of God (ref: Acts 202:28).
God Bless
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Please explain what you mean when you stated, "He specifically satisfied Gods wrath in their behalf".
We know our perfectly sinless Lord's offering His life unto death to atone for our sins satisfied the righteousness of God that sin must be judged, and we know God judged sin in the bodily death of our Lord, but nowhere in the bible does it state he satisfied God's wrath. We learn from the bible His life offered up for our sins averts God's wrath upon believers, but not satisfies it like in Him receiving it.
God Bless
Behold
Well-known member
The martyring of all the Apostles..... save for John
(See Foxe's Book of Martyr's ) ...
So, its true that they were "offered", but its not true that they drank The Cup..
How do you know?
As to Drink that Cup, you have to be worthy of it...
In other words, you are about to drink God's Wrath, to pay for the sin of the world, and the only way to qualify for the purpose, is to be the SINLESS< Only Begotten, Son of God.
And none of the Apostles were that one, so their sacrifice, their "cup" was not the same, that was Given to Jesus THE Christ.
Believe it.
civic
Well-known member
The cup was persecution and martyrdom. Jesus promised His disciples the same persecution and death.
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":
Matthew 20:17-
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.
2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.
Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.
If we who are not perfect and sinless like Jesus are promised never to be forsaken then neither was the sinless Son of God forsaken.
hope this helps !!!
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