None of which address Christ in his atonement
Demonstrate from scripture God poured his wrath out on Christ and that Christ propitiated God who had to reconciled toward man
Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
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Demonstrate from scripture God poured his wrath out on Christ and that Christ propitiated God who had to reconciled toward man
Johann
Well-known member
I have made a investigation of my own re PSA and now know, beyond a shadow of a doubt-why PSA is so vehemently opposed-It is because Calvin, Luther, Owen expanded on this, Reformers and Puritans-that's why.
Key Themes in Irenaeus’ Writings [There are no earlier writings prior to Irenaeus--far as I know of-]
1. Christus Victor
Victory Over Sin and Death: Irenaeus emphasized that Christ’s death and resurrection were a victory over the powers of sin and death. Through His incarnation, Christ entered the human condition to defeat the devil and liberate humanity from bondage.
Defeat of Evil Powers: Irenaeus depicted Christ as the one who conquered evil forces, thus breaking their hold over humanity. This victory is central to his understanding of salvation.
2. Recapitulation
Summing Up of All Things: Irenaeus introduced the idea of recapitulation (anakephalaiosis), where Christ, as the new Adam, re-lives and perfects the stages of human life. By doing so, He undoes the disobedience of the first Adam and restores humanity to its intended state.
Restoration of Humanity: Christ’s obedience and righteous life are seen as a reversal of the fall. In His life, death, and resurrection, Christ ‘recapitulates’ or ‘sums up’ all of human history, restoring communion with God.
Unity with Christ: Believers are united with Christ through His incarnation and redemption, sharing in His victory over sin and death.
Key Writings
Against Heresies (Adversus Haereses)
Purpose: Written to combat Gnostic heresies that threatened the early Church, Irenaeus also lays out his theological understanding of salvation and atonement.
Main Points:
Christ’s Incarnation: The Word became flesh to save humanity by defeating the devil and overcoming sin and death.
Recapitulation Theory: Christ replays the history of humanity through His life and obedience, rectifying Adam’s disobedience.
Victory Theme: Christ’s work is portrayed as a triumphant battle against the powers of evil, culminating in His resurrection.
Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching
Purpose: This work is a catechetical manual summarizing the apostolic teaching.
Main Points:
God’s Plan of Salvation: Emphasizes the continuity of God’s plan from creation through redemption.
Christ as the New Adam: Reinforces the idea that Christ’s obedient life and sacrificial death restore humanity.
Summary
Irenaeus of Lyons is one of the earliest and most significant theologians in the development of Christian atonement theory. His contributions are primarily captured in the concepts of Christus Victor and Recapitulation:
Christus Victor: Christ’s victory over the powers of sin and death, liberating humanity.
Recapitulation: Christ re-lives human history, correcting Adam’s fall and restoring humanity to its original relationship with God.
Irenaeus’ works laid foundational ideas for later theological developments and remain influential in understanding early Christian thought on atonement.
Historical Theories of Atonement
Christus Victor (Early Church)
This is one of the earliest views of atonement, emphasized by Church Fathers like Irenaeus (c. 130-202 AD). It focuses on Christ's victory over the powers of sin, death, and the devil.
Ransom Theory (Early Church)
Also prominent in early Christianity, this theory suggests that Christ’s death was a ransom paid to Satan to release humanity from bondage. Origen (c. 184-253 AD) and Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395 AD) were proponents of this view.
Moral Influence Theory (Early Church and Medieval Period)
This theory, advanced by figures like Peter Abelard (1079-1142), posits that Christ’s death was primarily a demonstration of God’s love intended to inspire a moral transformation in humanity.
Satisfaction Theory (Medieval Period)
Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109) developed this theory, arguing that Christ’s death satisfied the demands of God's honor, which had been offended by human sin.
Development of Penal Substitutionary Atonement
Penal Substitutionary Atonement (Reformation Period)
PSA was articulated and refined during the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, notably by Reformers such as Martin Luther (1483-1546) and John Calvin (1509-1564). They built on Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory but placed greater emphasis on the legal aspects of Christ’s atonement, interpreting it as Christ bearing the punishment due for sin in place of sinners.
The above is the reason why PSA is not received favorably-because of the Protestant Reformers-Luther and Calvin-need I say more?
More Recent Theories
Governmental Theory (17th Century)
Hugo Grotius (1583-1645) proposed this theory, which posits that Christ’s death demonstrates God’s justice and serves as a public example, thereby upholding the moral order without necessitating a strict penal substitution.
Scapegoat Theory (20th Century)
René Girard (1923-2015) introduced this theory, suggesting that Jesus’ death exposes and subverts the mechanism of scapegoating and human violence.
Conclusion
While PSA is a relatively later development compared to Christus Victor and Ransom theories, it is not the newest theory. It emerged prominently during the Reformation and has been a central doctrine in many Protestant traditions since the 16th century. Theories such as the Governmental Theory and the Scapegoat Theory developed after PSA, with the latter being a contemporary approach to understanding the atonement.
Each of these theories offers a different perspective on the significance of Christ's death and resurrection, reflecting the evolving understanding of atonement throughout Christian history.
Don't take my word for this-do some research yourself.
Johann.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Isa 53 isnt the only scripture in the bible, but Satisfaction of Gods justice is in Isa 53 and wrath was satisfied by Christ Isa 53:10-11
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
brightfame52
Well-known member
I already told you He was an object of Justice and appeased wrath against the sins of Gods elect. Do you believe Jesus was and obect of Gods Justice against sin ?
Um you ignore the fact it creates problems in trinitarian thought
you ignore the fact it is contrary to the bible that God was reconciled by the cross
You ignore the theological difficulty created by double imputation
You also ignore the fact the foundation of the doctrine the satisfaction theory is rejected as well and that preceeds Calvin, Luthor, Owen etc
Um scripture. Prove your theology from scripture
Demonstrate from scripture God poured his wrath out on Christ and that Christ propitiated God who had to reconciled toward man
He do not see in Isa above
that appears in PSA but it does not appear in scripture
brightfame52
Well-known member
I have explained my pov
Johann
Well-known member
"--by exhausting his wake upon him?!--"
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [ Dan_9:26 ; Lev_17:10 ] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see Isa_53:12 ] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) -nega (plague cf Psa_91:10 ) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Psa_11:7 and Job_22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen_9:26-27 ; Deu_33:2 ; Isa_44:15 ; also compare 1Ch_21:17 ]).
Isa 53:9 And he made his kever (grave) with the resha'im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃
Isa 53:2 ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃
Isa 53:3 נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
Isa 53:4 אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
Isa 53:5 והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
Isa 53:6 כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
Isa 53:7 נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
Isa 53:8 מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃
Isa 53:9 ויתן את־רשׁעים קברו ואת־עשׁיר במתיו על לא־חמס עשׂה ולא מרמה בפיו׃
Isa 53:10 ויהוה חפץ דכאו החלי אם־תשׂים אשׁם נפשׁו יראה זרע יאריך ימים וחפץ יהוה בידו יצלח׃
Isa 53:11 מעמל נפשׁו יראה ישׂבע בדעתו יצדיק צדיק עבדי לרבים ועונתם הוא יסבל׃
Isa 53:12 לכן אחלק־לו ברבים ואת־עצומים יחלק שׁלל תחת אשׁר הערה למות נפשׁו ואת־פשׁעים נמנה והוא חטא־רבים נשׂא ולפשׁעים יפגיע׃
Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].
You have no leg to stand on but denial of what stands written in the God-breathed Scriptures @TomL -maybe not deliberately.
Isa 53:5 But [Or “And”] he was pierced [Or “wounded”] because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities;
the chastisement for [Or “of”] our peace [Or “healing”] was upon him,
and by his wounds [Hebrew “wound”] we were healed. [Literally “it was healed for us”]
But he was. Isa_53:6-8; Isa_53:11-12, *Dan_9:24, *Zec_13:7, *Mat_20:28; Mat_27:26, Mar_15:24, *Rom_3:24-26; *Rom_4:25; Rom_5:6-10; Rom_5:15-21, +**1Co_15:3, **2Co_5:21, Gal_3:13, *Eph_5:2, Heb_4:15; *Heb_9:12-15; *Heb_9:28; *Heb_10:10; *Heb_10:14, *1Pe_3:18.
wounded. or, tormented. or, pierced. Isa_51:9, Psa_109:22, $Joh_19:34-37.
for our. =Psa_106:32, Joh_10:15; Joh_11:51, Phm_1:18, +*Heb_4:15 note. 1Jn_3:5.
transgressions. Heb. pasha, revolt, rebellion: sin against lawful authority (Isa_43:27, Psa_51:13, Pro_10:12; Pro_28:21). +=Lev_5:6, =Eze_40:39, 1Co_15:3.
bruised. T1950, Isa_53:10, +**Gen_3:15, +=Exo_27:20, =Lev_2:1; +=Lev_23:13, $Mat_27:26-29, +=Heb_2:10.
iniquities. Heb. avon, perverseness, from the root to be bent, or crooked. English wrong, i.e. wrung out of course, expresses it (compare 1Sa_20:30, 2Sa_19:19, 1Ki_8:47, Job_33:9) [CB, Appendix 44,iv]. Job_21:19, *Job_31:33 h, Isa_6:7, Zec_3:9; *1Jn_3:5.
the chastisement. Luk_23:16, Joh_19:1, *1Pe_2:24.
peace. Isa_9:6, Lev_7:29-30; +=Lev_23:19, *Rom_5:1, *Eph_2:14.
upon him. Isa_53:4, =Lev_16:10, +*xPsa_80:17.
with his. >1Pe_2:24.
stripes. Heb. bruise. Isa_1:6, Gen_4:23, Exo_21:25, 2Co_6:5.
healed. T1896, +Exo_15:26, Lev_13:18; Lev_13:37; Lev_14:3, Num_21:9, Psa_69:4; +*Psa_103:3, Mal_4:2, $*>Mat_8:17, Joh_3:14-15; Joh_12:40, *Act_10:38, 3Jn_1:2.
Which there was a way to link the Scripture references so that when you hover over it the whole verse pops up.
Have a blessed day.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
You seem to forget the Man Christ Jesus-no rupture in the Echad of the Triune Godhead-and are you telling me the Satisfaction theory is also debunked?
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sorry if you have Jesus who is forgiving and seld sacrificial and the Father who is unable to forgivve with punishment canot forgive a debt unless paid you have a disunity in the trinity
further if you have the father forsaking Jesus and a separation of their mutual indwelling you have a clear fracture in the Godhead
I am telling you I reject the satisfaction theory because it like PSA is based upon a commercial view of the atonement
Wrath
Johann
Well-known member
You make no sense at all, nothing.
Have a blessed day.
Johann
Well-known member
You need to calm down since there's a lot of typo errors and you are hither and thither "swimming" from thread to thread.
Ps Vendredi a former protestant is Orthodox not Roman Catholic
civic
Well-known member
100% correct
civic
Well-known member
I don’t respond any more to the same cut/paste from secondary sources in those posts. At least some if us know our church history when it comes to doctrine
Johann
Well-known member
Just in case you didn't know--
Orthodoxy encompasses several branches, each with its own traditions, theology, and organization. The Assyrian Church of the East, while historically related to Eastern Christianity, is not typically considered part of Eastern Orthodoxy. Here are the main branches of Orthodoxy:
1. Eastern Orthodox Church
The largest branch of Orthodoxy, consisting of several autocephalous (self-governing) churches, including:
Greek Orthodox Church
Russian Orthodox Church
Serbian Orthodox Church
Romanian Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Georgian Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate, Kiev Patriarchate, and Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Ukraine)
Antiochian Orthodox Church
Alexandrian Orthodox Church
Jerusalem Orthodox Church
Albanian Orthodox Church
Polish Orthodox Church
Orthodox Church of Cyprus
Orthodox Church of Finland
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia
Orthodox Church in America (autocephalous since 1970)
2. Oriental Orthodox Churches
These churches split from the rest of the Christian world following the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD over Christological differences. They include:
Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (Egypt)
Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (Ethiopia)
Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church (Eritrea)
Syriac Orthodox Church (including the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India)
Armenian Apostolic Church (Armenia)
Indian Orthodox Church (autocephalous since 1912)
3. Assyrian Church of the East
Also known as the Nestorian Church, it developed in the Persian Empire and has historically been separate from both Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy. It is headquartered in Chicago, Illinois, United States, but has a significant presence in Iraq and Iran.
Other Groups
In addition to these major branches, there are smaller groups and movements within Orthodoxy, such as the Old Believers, who separated from the Russian Orthodox Church in the 17th century due to liturgical reforms.
Each branch of Orthodoxy has its own distinctive theological perspectives, liturgical practices, and ecclesiastical structures, but they all share a common faith in Christ and adherence to the teachings of the early Church Fathers.
--now keep on "swimming" I ain't going to take the bait.
Be blessed.
civic
Well-known member
What is the source for the information above ?
That appears to me to be a total copout and failure to address what was stasted
sorry if you have Jesus who is forgiving and seld sacrificial and the Father who is unable to forgivve with punishment canot forgive a debt unless paid you have a disunity in the trinity
further if you have the father forsaking Jesus and a separation of their mutual indwelling you have a clear fracture in the Godhead
I am telling you I reject the satisfaction theory because it like PSA is based upon a commercial view of the atonement
But none are Roman Catholic as you claimed Paul Vendredi was
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